Quote:South African President Cyril Ramaphosa has said the ruling African National Congress must initiate a parliamentary process to enshrine in the constitution a proposed amendment, paving the way for land grabs without compensation.
Ramaphosa, who vowed to return the lands owned by the white farmers since the 1600s to the country's black population after he assumed office in February this year, said on Tuesday that the ANC would introduce a constitutional amendment in parliament.
I'm sure this will end well for South Africa.
Quote:Promoting his plan to boost land redistribution in March, Ramaphosa sought to assure white citizens, who constitute roughly nine percent of the total population, that the government would handle the controversial matter through "dialog, discussion, engagement, until we find good solutions that take our country forward."
I can hear that dialog, discussion, and engagement now.... "Get of the land or we'll kill you. We'll arrange a ride for you cause you can take nothing with you."
In another decade, South Africa will be exactly like all the other dirt poor countries on that continent.
Quote:South African President Cyril Ramaphosa has said the ruling African National Congress must initiate a parliamentary process to enshrine in the constitution a proposed amendment, paving the way for land grabs without compensation.
Ramaphosa, who vowed to return the lands owned by the white farmers since the 1600s to the country's black population after he assumed office in February this year, said on Tuesday that the ANC would introduce a constitutional amendment in parliament.
I'm sure this will end well for South Africa.
Quote:Promoting his plan to boost land redistribution in March, Ramaphosa sought to assure white citizens, who constitute roughly nine percent of the total population, that the government would handle the controversial matter through "dialog, discussion, engagement, until we find good solutions that take our country forward."
I can hear that dialog, discussion, and engagement now.... "Get of the land or we'll kill you. We'll arrange a ride for you cause you can take nothing with you."
In another decade, South Africa will be exactly like all the other dirt poor countries on that continent.
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
we are talking about farms that have been under white ownership for over 400 years. So if any of those original owners want to step up, I say they deserve it back. Of course, since they didn't have titled property 400 years ago in South Africa, I doubt they can produce records of ownership.
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
Quote:The Act became an effective tool in the separate development of races in South Africa. It also granted the Minister of the Interior a mandate to forcibly remove non-whites from valuable pieces of land so that they could become white settlements.
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
Quote:The Act became an effective tool in the separate development of races in South Africa. It also granted the Minister of the Interior a mandate to forcibly remove non-whites from valuable pieces of land so that they could become white settlements.
List of repealed principal acts
Black Land Act, 1913
(Native Land Act, 1913)
Development Trust and Land Act, 1936
(Native Trust and Land Act, 1936)
Unbeneficial Occupation of Farms Act, 1937
Coloured Persons Settlement Act, 1946Asiatic Land Tenure Act, 1946
Black Affairs Act, 1959 (Native Affairs Act, 1959)
Rural Coloured Areas Act, 1963
Group Areas Act, 1966
Black Communities Development
(08-02-2018 02:17 PM)bobdizole Wrote: No doubt it has been repealed. I think Tom's point was about the damage done during that time period before it was repealed
Zimbabwe 2.0
Blacks must do to whites what “Hitler did to the Jews” – Khumalo
I follow the EFF Party leader on Twitter, they are further left than ANC. He said "we are not calling for the murder of the boers, yet". He has a famous song he sings called kill the boers.
(08-02-2018 01:17 PM)banker Wrote: we are talking about farms that have been under white ownership for over 400 years. So if any of those original owners want to step up, I say they deserve it back. Of course, since they didn't have titled property 400 years ago in South Africa, I doubt they can produce records of ownership.
This. Rich urban whites their houses condos are safe. It is the farms that can be taken without compensation.
I'm just glad I got to see South Africa while Nelson Madela was still alive, when leaders were still scared to go against the wishes of Madiba. I don't think I would want to go back today.
(08-02-2018 04:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I'm just glad I got to see South Africa while Nelson Madela was still alive, when leaders were still scared to go against the wishes of Madiba. I don't think I would want to go back today.
South Africa actually appears to be safer today than during the late 90s. It still has many problems.
Also, remember, that the real threat isn't the ANC or DA, but the EFF. SA actually moved AWAY from it when they got rid of Zuma.
----
The lack of titles, which weren't provided to Blacks by the Apartheid government, should not be a bar to the return of property to those who had it stolen by previous governments. And why was it okay for white Boers to steal property from Blacks using government fiat, but not okay for that land to be returned to those that it was originally stolen from?
And even if you support the cemetation of South Africa's racist land grab by whites from Africans, understand that if the injustice isn't resolved by Cyril and his wing of the ANC, that much worse (including impacts in urban areas) will likely ensue from a Zuma/ANC government in alliance with the EFF. The stolen farms are going away. Try to keep them in the hands of those that stole them and you'll still lose them, and then lose the urban areas as well. Remember, that for many Africans in South Africa, there have been precious few economic gains in the last 20 years. At some point the EFF/ZumaANC wing will make a full ZANU play. When (not if) that happens, the goal is to have enough Africans with a stake in the system to stop it.
To the white commercial farmers in South Africa, understand that they had decades on stolen land. They can either ensure that the land is properly paid for (to the people who really owned it - regardless of the original governmental theft) or lose the land. And no, the US, nor anyone else is going to do squat to help the 'squatters' of Black land in South Africa. If I'm a white commercial farmer, I'd hope that the Cyril government will provide a way for me to clear the accounts so that I can reasonably hope to retain the land.
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
Did you read the story???
Quote:the lands owned by the white farmers since the 1600s
Essentially the same as the United States and Native Americans, so???
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2018 05:33 PM by THE NC Herd Fan.)
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
Did you read the story???
Quote:the lands owned by the white farmers since the 1600s
Essentially the same as the United States and Native Americans, so???
Anarchy and genocide. Thankfully the nukes are gone.
(08-02-2018 10:14 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Actually, how about this
All land taken from persons during Apartheid should be immediately restored to the original owners. You realize that millions of persons of color in SA had their land stolen by legislative fiat (with no, or poor compensation) during Apartheid.
Did you read the story???
Quote:the lands owned by the white farmers since the 1600s
Essentially the same as the United States and Native Americans, so???
Uh, by 1700, there was VERY little farmland in South Africa under cultivation by Europeans. Most of the land was stolen during the Great Trek, the Diamond/Gold Boom, and during Apartheid.
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2018 05:36 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
(08-02-2018 04:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I'm just glad I got to see South Africa while Nelson Madela was still alive, when leaders were still scared to go against the wishes of Madiba. I don't think I would want to go back today.
South Africa actually appears to be safer today than during the late 90s. It still has many problems.
Also, remember, that the real threat isn't the ANC or DA, but the EFF. SA actually moved AWAY from it when they got rid of Zuma.
----
The lack of titles, which weren't provided to Blacks by the Apartheid government, should not be a bar to the return of property to those who had it stolen by previous governments. And why was it okay for white Boers to steal property from Blacks using government fiat, but not okay for that land to be returned to those that it was originally stolen from?
And even if you support the cemetation of South Africa's racist land grab by whites from Africans, understand that if the injustice isn't resolved by Cyril and his wing of the ANC, that much worse (including impacts in urban areas) will likely ensue from a Zuma/ANC government in alliance with the EFF. The stolen farms are going away. Try to keep them in the hands of those that stole them and you'll still lose them, and then lose the urban areas as well. Remember, that for many Africans in South Africa, there have been precious few economic gains in the last 20 years. At some point the EFF/ZumaANC wing will make a full ZANU play. When (not if) that happens, the goal is to have enough Africans with a stake in the system to stop it.
To the white commercial farmers in South Africa, understand that they had decades on stolen land. They can either ensure that the land is properly paid for (to the people who really owned it - regardless of the original governmental theft) or lose the land. And no, the US, nor anyone else is going to do squat to help the 'squatters' of Black land in South Africa. If I'm a white commercial farmer, I'd hope that the Cyril government will provide a way for me to clear the accounts so that I can reasonably hope to retain the land.
You are putting all sorts of words into my mouth that I did not say. If I were a white South African, I would have sold my property and gotten the hell out the day Madiba died, because this was coming as soon as he was gone.
You can certainly make the case that any blacks who were dispossessed of land under Apartheid have a right to the return of such land. And you can make the case that whites who acquired land through what were legal means at the time of acquisition and who have invested time and effort into making improvements have rights in their land as well. The goal should be to provide a means to reconciliation whereby all can live in harmony going forward. That's at best an extremely difficult proposition, but I do think that Mandela was at least committed in principle to finding a way to make that happen. I got the sense when there in 2009 that there were genuine efforts being made toward reconciliation, but there was still a long way to go. I don't see where calls to kill the whites further that goal. Do you?
I have a friend in Houston whose father owned a large ranch in what was then Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). They got out in the nick of time. They actually flew cattle out in cargo 747s to Brazil, where they settled in the Mato Grosso area. White capital flight is a major threat to the development of a sustainable economy in South Africa. This sort of activity will only hasten that demise.
(08-02-2018 04:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I'm just glad I got to see South Africa while Nelson Madela was still alive, when leaders were still scared to go against the wishes of Madiba. I don't think I would want to go back today.
South Africa actually appears to be safer today than during the late 90s. It still has many problems.
Also, remember, that the real threat isn't the ANC or DA, but the EFF. SA actually moved AWAY from it when they got rid of Zuma.
----
The lack of titles, which weren't provided to Blacks by the Apartheid government, should not be a bar to the return of property to those who had it stolen by previous governments. And why was it okay for white Boers to steal property from Blacks using government fiat, but not okay for that land to be returned to those that it was originally stolen from?
And even if you support the cemetation of South Africa's racist land grab by whites from Africans, understand that if the injustice isn't resolved by Cyril and his wing of the ANC, that much worse (including impacts in urban areas) will likely ensue from a Zuma/ANC government in alliance with the EFF. The stolen farms are going away. Try to keep them in the hands of those that stole them and you'll still lose them, and then lose the urban areas as well. Remember, that for many Africans in South Africa, there have been precious few economic gains in the last 20 years. At some point the EFF/ZumaANC wing will make a full ZANU play. When (not if) that happens, the goal is to have enough Africans with a stake in the system to stop it.
To the white commercial farmers in South Africa, understand that they had decades on stolen land. They can either ensure that the land is properly paid for (to the people who really owned it - regardless of the original governmental theft) or lose the land. And no, the US, nor anyone else is going to do squat to help the 'squatters' of Black land in South Africa. If I'm a white commercial farmer, I'd hope that the Cyril government will provide a way for me to clear the accounts so that I can reasonably hope to retain the land.
You are putting all sorts of words into my mouth that I did not say. If I were a white South African, I would have sold my property and gotten the hell out the day Madiba died, because this was coming as soon as he was gone.
You can certainly make the case that any blacks who were dispossessed of land under Apartheid have a right to the return of such land. And you can make the case that whites who acquired land through what were legal means at the time of acquisition and who have invested time and effort into making improvements have rights in their land as well. The goal should be to provide a means to reconciliation whereby all can live in harmony going forward. That's at best an extremely difficult proposition, but I do think that Mandela was at least committed in principle to finding a way to make that happen. I got the sense when there in 2009 that there were genuine efforts being made toward reconciliation, but there was still a long way to go. I don't see where calls to kill the whites further that goal. Do you?
I have a friend in Houston whose father owned a large ranch in what was then Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). They got out in the nick of time. They actually flew cattle out in cargo 747s to Brazil, where they settled in the Mato Grosso area. White capital flight is a major threat to the development of a sustainable economy in South Africa. This sort of activity will only hasten that demise.
I should have noted that my comments under the hashmarks were not directed especially at you, but generally at those that oppose a common sense solution to the issue. And since whites have most of the money, most of the compensation is going to come from them. There's no other place for it to come from.
I have a cousin (by marriage) who is oddly enough STILL a commercial farmer in Zim (its an odd story as to how he's managed to stay on). What happened in Zim is not a likely result in SA. There is now an urban middle class of Africans that aren't interested in the EFF/ZumaANC wing. The problem remains in rural South Africa. What will happen is that either the white farmers will smartly try to make a deal before political pressures make a future deal far more expensive.
The question isn't whether white farmers in land clearly taken from Africans (at least from the Rhodes era) will pay something, but how much that payment will be.
The ANC has been corrupt as hell, but it was remarkably stable. I think that Cyril will be the last consensus ANC leader. Its smart for Cyril and the white farmers to invest in a future that all South Africans find to be fair enough to avoid the disaster that the EFF would be. Opposition to land return isn't in the defense of the white community in South Africa.....but rather is a dangerous game more likely to make their position far less tenable. This is a case where 'doing the right thing' helps the community survive.
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2018 06:00 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
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