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Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  If you give people free money, they will blow it. That's why they have to put limits on what you can buy with food stamps.
Its an idea that just doesn't work, like communism. It ignores human nature.

If you keep giving them more ways to get free money they will manipulate the system to get more. If you give them $X and then turn off the spigot, it may take a month or two, but they will figure out.

It's like the welfare mom who had the maximum number of kids the system would pay for. She had one more and went down to get more money. They said nope, you already had the maximum number of kids we will pay for. She was like, "Damn, if I had known that, I never would have let that a-hole f-k me." It's the ones who manipulate the system whose attitudes we need to change.
08-05-2018 09:28 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  You and I are on the same page on this Owl. Before we do anything with taxation the first step has to be addressing spending. It is simply out of control and lots of our spending is wasteful and misplaced.

Problem is, as long as there are huge deficits, nobody is going to address spending. Last year we were looking at nearly a trillion dollar deficit. Democrats and republicans "compromised"--you get the additional $100 billion spending you want and I get the additional $100 billion spending I want. When the budget is that far out of balance to begin with, what difference does it make?

Quote:One of the things missed often about ending withholding in favor of a consumption tax paradigm would be the money the IRS now misses annually from illegal profits and black and grey market activities. It is estimated that the IRS fails to collect around 600 billion annually. Going to a consumption tax paradigm would capture much of that. When you buy new goods?..You pay. It would also snag revenue from visitors to our shores.
HR 25 was designed to the "revenue neutral" but I'd bet it would bring in more than our current system.

One thing about my approach, everything could then be audited at the business level. That would mean that compliance activities could be directed at a lot fewer entities, which would also lead to higher compliance.
08-05-2018 09:34 AM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
If you provide a UBI some people would use it properly but a good number would blow through it every month then not be able to pay their rent because they can't, don't or won't budget and would be evicted. Same for any of life's necessities — food, utilities, medical.

This is the reason for vouchers that can only be used for the thing attached to he voucher...section 8 voucher can only be used for rent, medicaid can only be used for healthcare, WIC and foodstamps can only be used for food.

If you just gave people a UBI — there a large swath of people who routinely would run out of money each month and not pay their bills because they don't budget and just spend till the money runs out.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2018 09:39 AM by mptnstr@44.)
08-05-2018 09:39 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:39 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  If you provide a UBI some people would use it properly but a good number would blow through it every month then not be able to pay their rent because they can't, don't or won't budget and would be evicted. Same for any of life's necessities — food, utilities, medical.

This is the reason for vouchers that can only be used for the thing attached to he voucher...section 8 voucher can only be used for rent, medicaid can only be used for healthcare, WIC and foodstamps can only be used for food.

If you just gave people a UBI — there a large swath of people who routinely would run out of money each month and not pay their bills because they don't budget and just spend till the money runs out.

You make a good point. I can't think of a reason why some type of voucher system could not be used in a UBI paradigm. As for those that simply can not figure out how to budget that money?...I guess their option would be to get off the couch and find a JOB.
08-05-2018 09:50 AM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(08-05-2018 09:39 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  If you provide a UBI some people would use it properly but a good number would blow through it every month then not be able to pay their rent because they can't, don't or won't budget and would be evicted. Same for any of life's necessities — food, utilities, medical.

This is the reason for vouchers that can only be used for the thing attached to he voucher...section 8 voucher can only be used for rent, medicaid can only be used for healthcare, WIC and foodstamps can only be used for food.

If you just gave people a UBI — there a large swath of people who routinely would run out of money each month and not pay their bills because they don't budget and just spend till the money runs out.

You make a good point. I can't think of a reason why some type of voucher system could not be used in a UBI paradigm. As for those that simply can not figure out how to budget that money?...I guess their option would be to get off the couch and find a JOB.

If the USA went by "Don't have enough money? Get a job." we wouldn't have all of these safety nets to begin with....that now make it easy to sit on your butt and get your vouchers and welfare.

Additionally offering vouchers for rent, medical and food with a UBI defeats the purpose of the UBI. Part of what makes a UBI save money is there is no need to have multiple government agencies (that cost money to run) needed since it is just a check that everyone gets.
08-05-2018 10:05 AM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:28 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-05-2018 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  If you give people free money, they will blow it. That's why they have to put limits on what you can buy with food stamps.
Its an idea that just doesn't work, like communism. It ignores human nature.

If you keep giving them more ways to get free money they will manipulate the system to get more. If you give them $X and then turn off the spigot, it may take a month or two, but they will figure out.

It's like the welfare mom who had the maximum number of kids the system would pay for. She had one more and went down to get more money. They said nope, you already had the maximum number of kids we will pay for. She was like, "Damn, if I had known that, I never would have let that a-hole f-k me." It's the ones who manipulate the system whose attitudes we need to change.

that couldn't be more true than in Hattiesburg, MS......

spot on!
08-05-2018 10:52 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:39 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  If you provide a UBI some people would use it properly but a good number would blow through it every month then not be able to pay their rent because they can't, don't or won't budget and would be evicted. Same for any of life's necessities — food, utilities, medical.

This is the reason for vouchers that can only be used for the thing attached to he voucher...section 8 voucher can only be used for rent, medicaid can only be used for healthcare, WIC and foodstamps can only be used for food.

If you just gave people a UBI — there a large swath of people who routinely would run out of money each month and not pay their bills because they don't budget and just spend till the money runs out.

It happens to a lot of people with good jobs. It happens to the US government run by supposedly the best and the brightest.
08-05-2018 11:31 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-01-2018 08:09 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  
(08-01-2018 07:33 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  So the moral of the story is.....

When sit on ass pays just like work, people will choose the don't work option.

Gee, there's a shock.

They won't work at sh1tty jobs for sh1tty pay, anyway. Nor should they.

Then you should f'ing starve....I'm not working to support your lazy @ss.
08-05-2018 12:10 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 09:28 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-05-2018 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  If you give people free money, they will blow it. That's why they have to put limits on what you can buy with food stamps.
Its an idea that just doesn't work, like communism. It ignores human nature.

If you keep giving them more ways to get free money they will manipulate the system to get more. If you give them $X and then turn off the spigot, it may take a month or two, but they will figure out.

It's like the welfare mom who had the maximum number of kids the system would pay for. She had one more and went down to get more money. They said nope, you already had the maximum number of kids we will pay for. She was like, "Damn, if I had known that, I never would have let that a-hole f-k me." It's the ones who manipulate the system whose attitudes we need to change.

So, instead of having more kids to get more money, make them work 40 hours to get welfare money. In tough times, when no jobs (including sh!tty ones, as some other dumba$$ wrote), you have to volunteer for 40 hours per week. Picking up garbage on the highways, painting over graffiti, watching other welfare people's kids while they are working, etc.
08-05-2018 12:22 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Finland Thought Giving Away Money Would Get More People to Work,They Were Wrong
(08-05-2018 12:22 PM)blah Wrote:  
(08-05-2018 09:28 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-05-2018 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  If you give people free money, they will blow it. That's why they have to put limits on what you can buy with food stamps.
Its an idea that just doesn't work, like communism. It ignores human nature.
If you keep giving them more ways to get free money they will manipulate the system to get more. If you give them $X and then turn off the spigot, it may take a month or two, but they will figure out.
It's like the welfare mom who had the maximum number of kids the system would pay for. She had one more and went down to get more money. They said nope, you already had the maximum number of kids we will pay for. She was like, "Damn, if I had known that, I never would have let that a-hole f-k me." It's the ones who manipulate the system whose attitudes we need to change.
So, instead of having more kids to get more money, make them work 40 hours to get welfare money. In tough times, when no jobs (including sh!tty ones, as some other dumba$$ wrote), you have to volunteer for 40 hours per week. Picking up garbage on the highways, painting over graffiti, watching other welfare people's kids while they are working, etc.

I would do that for unemployment. You go down to the unemployment office and sign up, they don't give you a check, they tell you where to report to work tomorrow. Do a deal where you work 32 hours a weak and spend 8 hours in documented work search or skills training, and at the end of the week you get paid for 40 hours at the minimum wage.

You can set the UBI at a subsistence level, so people can survive but nobody really wants to live there. That plus a full-time minimum wage job and Bismarck health care puts them above the poverty line. If you don't want to work a sh1tty job, you live a sh1tty life. People who work should live better than people who don't work. Remember this, if you are working, you still get the same UBI as someone who is not working. And if you are not paying income taxes or having them withheld in a consumption tax paradigm, those higher prices don't bother you. And those higher prices don't last forever, the system absorbs them if taxes are slashed elsewhere. That doesn't happen in Europe because they still have a personal income tax, but we can eliminate that and that reduces costs across the board.

By the way, you do that and all those statistics about how the US has the most unequal dispersion of income and wealth? They go away in a heartbeat.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2018 04:04 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-05-2018 03:50 PM
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