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I count no more than 4-5 seniors listed on this roster..We are still a very young team....


https://wmubroncos.com/roster.aspx?path=football

(07-23-2018 09:39 AM)broncojohnny Wrote:  I count no more than 4-5 seniors listed on this roster..We are still a very young team....


https://wmubroncos.com/roster.aspx?path=football

I knew we were young, but I didn't realize that we were THAT young...

We have 10, which is still a small group. The website doesn't work very well, it hides the redshirt seniors at the bottom when you sort it.

HB: Bogan, Ekwoge
WR: Harris
TE: Miller
OL: Novoselsky, Doyle, Keenoy
DL: Finley, Assoua
CB: Dowels

Check out our 2014 recruiting class, a ton of talent and a ton of no-shows. It was simultaneously Fleck's best and worst class.

(07-23-2018 10:38 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  We have 10, which is still a small group. The website doesn't work very well, it hides the redshirt seniors at the bottom when you sort it.

HB: Bogan, Ekwoge
WR: Harris
TE: Miller
OL: Novoselsky, Doyle, Keenoy
DL: Finley, Assoua
CB: Dowels

Check out our 2014 recruiting class, a ton of talent and a ton of no-shows. It was simultaneously Fleck's best and worst class.

Lot of comments lately suggesting that Flecks recruiting classes really were not that good. And yet the teams he coached were outstanding. I guess he just must have been great at getting his teams prepared and had great plans for winning games.

With all this great talent that Lester has recruited, and the strong assumption that they will stay and be valuable contributors on the field, we should be regulars at the MACC.

(07-23-2018 04:13 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-23-2018 10:38 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  We have 10, which is still a small group. The website doesn't work very well, it hides the redshirt seniors at the bottom when you sort it.

HB: Bogan, Ekwoge
WR: Harris
TE: Miller
OL: Novoselsky, Doyle, Keenoy
DL: Finley, Assoua
CB: Dowels

Check out our 2014 recruiting class, a ton of talent and a ton of no-shows. It was simultaneously Fleck's best and worst class.

Lot of comments lately suggesting that Flecks recruiting classes really were not that good. And yet the teams he coached were outstanding. I guess he just must have been great at getting his teams prepared and had great plans for winning games.

With all this great talent that Lester has recruited, and the strong assumption that they will stay and be valuable contributors on the field, we should be regulars at the MACC.

Just pointing out a fact, a lot of those guys should have hung around for a magical 2016. That 2014 class had a ridiculous amount of talent and got us a MAC championship. No need to flog that dead Bronco again, it’s fertilizer now.

If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

These seniors deserve to go out with success and pride. They’ve given the proverbial blood, sweat, and tears. The outcome of the season will not be determined by the seniors. Some of them are all beat up to hell. But that crew coming up is lurking in the background, they’ve been waiting for their chance and the time has come to put the show on the road.

Let’s ride. Hell yes.

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL. Last year's team was predicted to, the the very least, challenge to win the league title. He inherited a fired up fan base, and players who knew how to win. Lester said all of these things himself when he was hired, and he knew did those things were true. He had every reason to keep things as much as they were as possible, but he changed things, because he wanted to be who he was.

You can't compare the team Lester inherited with the team Fleck inherited. Everyone wants to give Lester a pass, "because it was his first year", and I don't understand that, but at least this year I hope everyone agrees that Lester has to own whatever the results are. Good or bad.

Pockets of talent. Quarterback, receivers and linebackers were all huge questions entering the season ... and would have been an issue had peej been here. Couple that with injuries and it is hard to ignore reality. The final record is about what it would have been whether it was Peej or Timbo coaching.

Did Lester make some bonehead decisions? Of course. Declining that 15 yd penalty at MSU was the most boneheaded coaching call I've seen second only to Harbaugh's call at the end of MSU/UM. Peej likewise made me scream in not just his first year, but even in his last. Especially in the MAC title game. Let's all deal with reality rather than bias.

We should have a winning season. Unless we get lucky we're not likely to challenge for the MAC championship this year.

I'm was not a Peej groupie and I'm not enamored by Lester.

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL. Last year's team was predicted to, the the very least, challenge to win the league title. He inherited a fired up fan base, and players who knew how to win. Lester said all of these things himself when he was hired, and he knew did those things were true. He had every reason to keep things as much as they were as possible, but he changed things, because he wanted to be who he was.

You can't compare the team Lester inherited with the team Fleck inherited. Everyone wants to give Lester a pass, "because it was his first year", and I don't understand that, but at least this year I hope everyone agrees that Lester has to own whatever the results are. Good or bad.

Oh, yes I can. Where was the number two QB to take over, or even a number two receiver. A while ago a team named the lions had a running back named Sanders one of the best in the league, how many playoff games did they win. Pj left a very one dimensional team with talent but no experience. This was part of the reason he left or he would of held out for a really good job.

Oh yes I can. A while ago a team named the Lions had a running back named Sanders. One of the best in the league but not a great QB, how many playoff games did they win over his time. Pj left a one dimensional team, talented but inexperienced and he knew it. That was part of the reason he left or he would have held out for a better coaching job., or

(07-26-2018 06:28 AM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  Oh yes I can. A while ago a team named the Lions had a running back named Sanders. One of the best in the league but not a great QB, how many playoff games did they win over his time. Pj left a one dimensional team, talented but inexperienced and he knew it. That was part of the reason he left or he would have held out for a better coaching job., or

Last year's team was only one dimensional because that is how Lester played it. He went with the run, run, pass, punt strategy almost every game, and never put his QB and receivers in situations to be successful with the passing game, because he passed primarily on third and long. Having new or inexperienced QBs and receivers is not a prohibition to winning, or even having a very successful and dynamic offence. Being predictable on offense, however, is.

Last year's team was one of the most overall talented and experienced we have ever had at WMU. We deserved much more than what was delivered on the field. To blame losses on inexperience at QB and receivers, or on injuries, is short sighted.

We lost far more in terms of relevant personnel this past off-season than we did after the 13-1 year. It will be interesting to see whether the loss of these players become the new excuse. Hopefully we won't need excuses anymore.

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Factually not true.

As you state there was significant loss to graduation. You cant use what you don't have. That's the myth in which you base your premise.

(07-26-2018 07:48 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Factually not true.

As you state there was significant loss to graduation. You cant use what you don't have. That's the myth in which you base your premise.

What is not factually true about Lester inheriting a 13-1 powerhouse?

It is actually factually true that more than 2/3 of our starters from that 2016 team returned and 2/3 of our two-deep returned. A quick glance at the rosters (which several people here have done numerous times in the past) proves that.

Please do explain the "facts" in which you reference.

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Exaggeration doesnt make the truth or falsehhood more true or false.

A pile of talent of experience and talent didnt play in the NFL. I'd question the term pile as you imply it (to fit your narrative).

Even Zach Terrell didnt play. Getting a tryout isnt playing. That said, not playing has zero bearing on the fact and truth that ZT was an experienced and talented QB FOR WMU who's literal playing time didnt (a choice by the previous HC) provide "experience" to develop his understudy's.

(07-26-2018 08:00 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 07:48 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Factually not true.

As you state there was significant loss to graduation. You cant use what you don't have. That's the myth in which you base your premise.

What is not factually true about Lester inheriting a 13-1 powerhouse?

It is actually factually true that more than 2/3 of our starters from that 2016 team returned and 2/3 of our two-deep returned. A quick glance at the rosters (which several people here have done numerous times in the past) proves that.

Please do explain the "facts" in which you reference.

Two things. Very clear and accurate. I laid it out before in a direct response to you a couple weeks ago.

First, there is a huge difference in quantity vs quality.
2nd, experience, as you refer to it should have kept key positions unavailable to any newcomer. Even if "as good" if not as experienced they don't see the field or as nearly as much.

Last years team still won 6 games without the 2 most impactful, talented and experienced players, period. They were the difference makers.

There was NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE on last years roster OR this years who can remotely come close to Corey Davis. The very fact that an oft injured athlete who performed in a very pedestrian manner at U of M is now considered the potential difference maker underscores how quality trumps quantity. There were numerous WR's on the roster from the previous regime. A bevy of new ones coming in last year. None last year and none this year will have the impact of CD.

Couple that with Terrell's experience and talent throwing to that capable talent you had a quality NO ONE else had. NO ONE! That is why opponents schemed to primarily stop it.

The running game that was "inherited" was very good. Even with the loss of Moten on the OL.

But it's overall effectiveness was contingent primarily on the fact you couldnt fill the box to stop it without exposing the back side or significant space underneath to the pass. That was statistically proven through out the Terrell/Davis "era". It is indisputable.

Where did these 2 get all those yards and scoring from? Playing stiffs every game? If so, that taints the 13-1 season because you should beat 13 stiffs on a regular basis. But I agree, that season was special. Special because WMU had a foundation of those 2 who could put 6 on you in ANY 6 second time frame of the game when WMU was on O.

That threat allowed WMU to effectively use the talent and experience in the running game. That used up a lot of clock as ALL on this board have attested to was both desired and accomplished.

This was clearly exemplified last year. NO downfield threat. NONE. Inspite of the experience and talent you suggest. The result was to step up take away the run and dare WMU to play pitch and catch.

Still WMU won 6 games grinding it out with a talented OL and RB. But as the year went on the developing QB who had ZERO experience before the season started went down with an injury. That was AFTER Bellamy and Bogan had gone down. Soon the 3rd string but talented RB Tucker goes down. Eventually Javarion goes down from wear and tear.

It isnt complicated.

Defensively? They saw the field more frequently. They were exposed. Their talent level? A medically disqualified transfer from Syracuse comes in and starts from day one on the DL receiving double teams through out. A freshman DE plays significant minutes starting on several occasions. But where was the depth and talent ahead of him (class wise) you suggest? Where was all the talent and experience you mention?

Maybe it didnt exist to begin with? If I'm wrong list the specific individuals who brought that level of impact to keep Stephen and Fayad out of the lineup.

Take last years team with a heallthy CD and ZT. All other injuries and loses, coaching/scheme changes, weird weather, etc being exactly the same. Finish the regular season 10-2? Maybe 9-3? Critical positions with critical players count for everything.

(07-26-2018 08:42 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 08:00 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 07:48 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

Lester inherited a 13-1 powerhouse, with so much talent and experience that a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Factually not true.

As you state there was significant loss to graduation. You cant use what you don't have. That's the myth in which you base your premise.

What is not factually true about Lester inheriting a 13-1 powerhouse?

It is actually factually true that more than 2/3 of our starters from that 2016 team returned and 2/3 of our two-deep returned. A quick glance at the rosters (which several people here have done numerous times in the past) proves that.

Please do explain the "facts" in which you reference.

Two things. Very clear and accurate. I laid it out before in a direct response to you a couple weeks ago.

First, there is a huge difference in quantity vs quality.
2nd, experience, as you refer to it should have kept key positions unavailable to any newcomer. Even if "as good" if not as experienced they don't see the field or as nearly as much.

Last years team still won 6 games without the 2 most impactful, talented and experienced players, period. They were the difference makers.

There was NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE on last years roster OR this years who can remotely come close to Corey Davis. The very fact that an oft injured athlete who performed in a very pedestrian manner at U of M is now considered the potential difference maker underscores how quality trumps quantity. There were numerous WR's on the roster from the previous regime. A bevy of new ones coming in last year. None last year and none this year will have the impact of CD.

Couple that with Terrell's experience and talent throwing to that capable talent you had a quality NO ONE else had. NO ONE! That is why opponents schemed to primarily stop it.

The running game that was "inherited" was very good. Even with the loss of Moten on the OL.

But it's overall effectiveness was contingent primarily on the fact you couldnt fill the box to stop it without exposing the back side or significant space underneath to the pass. That was statistically proven through out the Terrell/Davis "era". It is indisputable.

Where did these 2 get all those yards and scoring from? Playing stiffs every game? If so, that taints the 13-1 season because you should beat 13 stiffs on a regular basis. But I agree, that season was special. Special because WMU had a foundation of those 2 who could put 6 on you in ANY 6 second time frame of the game when WMU was on O.

That threat allowed WMU to effectively use the talent and experience in the running game. That used up a lot of clock as ALL on this board have attested to was both desired and accomplished.

This was clearly exemplified last year. NO downfield threat. NONE. Inspite of the experience and talent you suggest. The result was to step up take away the run and dare WMU to play pitch and catch.

Still WMU won 6 games grinding it out with a talented OL and RB. But as the year went on the developing QB who had ZERO experience before the season started went down with an injury. That was AFTER Bellamy and Bogan had gone down. Soon the 3rd string but talented RB Tucker goes down. Eventually Javarion goes down from wear and tear.

It isnt complicated.

Defensively? They saw the field more frequently. They were exposed. Their talent level? A medically disqualified transfer from Syracuse comes in and starts from day one on the DL receiving double teams through out. A freshman DE plays significant minutes starting on several occasions. But where was the depth and talent ahead of him (class wise) you suggest? Where was all the talent and experience you mention?

Maybe it didnt exist to begin with? If I'm wrong list the specific individuals who brought that level of impact to keep Stephen and Fayad out of the lineup.

(07-26-2018 08:01 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:04 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 06:43 PM)jnbaczkiewicz@yahoo.com Wrote:  If Pj's years of 7-6 and 8-5 are are considered great then Lester's first year at 6-6 has to be considered better then average. In light of all the challenges he faced. Including an depleted team especially at QB. Lets all get behind them for 2018. Lets ride.

a pile of those players just want off to the NFL.

Exaggeration doesnt make the truth or falsehhood more true or false.

A pile of talent of experience and talent didnt play in the NFL. I'd question the term pile as you imply it (to fit your narrative).

Even Zach Terrell didnt play. Getting a tryout isnt playing. That said, not playing has zero bearing on the fact and truth that ZT was an experienced and talented QB FOR WMU who's literal playing time didnt (a choice by the previous HC) provide "experience" to develop his understudy's.

The 2016-17 WMU team went 13-1. Is that fact or is it fiction? The overwhelming majority of the players on that 13-1 team were also on the 2017-18 team that Lester coached. Do you agree this is also factually accurate? That same 6-6 2017-18 team recently had several players either drafted or sign free agent contracts with NFL teams. Agree or disagree? I will agree that signing a contract doesnt mean they will ever even play a single game in the NFL, but each of those players was at least good enough to be considered an "NFL prospect", which in general means they were a very high quality college player. Many Alabama players who sign NFL contracts don't end up having "NFL careers", but that certainly doesnt mean they were not high caliber enough to be outstanding college players.

The TRUTH, my friend, is that Lester's team last year was loaded with very high caliber college football talent; and for certain WMU's talent and experience was in the highest echelon within the MAC. Last years team grossly under-performed; and yes, I blame Lester; just as I would have credited Lester had the team finished 12-1.

I am not sure what WMU's record would have been last year had Fleck been the coach; but I am 100% positive if Fleck was the coach and we would have finished 6-6 you wouldn't be bailing him out Gobaseline, as you are Lester. Factual? Go ahead brother, admit it.

I wish Brovo would get off the absurd notion that we were loaded last year. Wassink never threw a pass the entire 2016 year....
Our wide outs had scant experience coming into 2017....
You need to be loaded with talent and EXPERIENCE to try and replicate the 2016 year..
I imagine if Fleck had any intention of staying at Western, he wouldn't have Wassink riding the pines foe an entire year....
We lost around 21 kids to injury during the year.....
So, I cast my vote with Gobasline

(07-26-2018 05:18 PM)broncojohnny Wrote:  I wish Brovo would get off the absurd notion that we were loaded last year. Wassink never threw a pass the entire 2016 year....
Our wide outs had scant experience coming into 2017....
You need to be loaded with talent and EXPERIENCE to try and replicate the 2016 year..
I imagine if Fleck had any intention of staying at Western, he wouldn't have Wassink riding the pines foe an entire year....
We lost around 21 kids to injury during the year.....
So, I cast my vote with Gobasline

We had a stable of RBs comparable to any P5 group. A good amount of talent on the O-line. A good TE. Returning players all around on defense. When we were healthy Lester dropped a turd by running the most vanilla offensive gameplan when we needed to open it up in East Lansing. Clearly we could not run up the gut but for some reason we continued to do so to the detriment of offense as a whole. We got USC on their heels with some trick plays and spread the ball around. It opened up running lanes until late. Against MSU our only weapon was DP. We lost by 2 scores in a game that was more lopsided than the final score indicated.