(07-24-2018 07:36 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  OWL 69 used to be the biggest proponent on here about trade and tariffs. I don't see very many people defending the practice anymore and to me that is astonishing. When Trump looks at the trade imbalance and he says he cant lose a trade war with China it's one of the things I believe. I also don't like how that have caught up with us in a lot of R&D but as we see above. Wages aren't keeping up with inflation.

Taking Iran's oil off the market might be his biggest mistake and just bellying up to the fossil fuel industry. That in and of itself is a discussion, but propping up oil has eaten up any real wage increase.

Eh?

Is he propping up oil or taking it off the market?

Both?

Should we be supporting the efforts of the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism by paying billions to them, yet again?

When we’re soon to be the largest producers of energy in the world, cause you know, when left unfettered and to our own devices, we generally kick asss?

How does our expansion and soon to be world domination of the energy sector square with being pootey-poots errand boy? The gas station with nukes?

Odd conundrum, that. No?

But yea, naive ol me...

Lol

(07-23-2018 07:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Instead they have went down.

https://twitter.com/business/status/1020...04320?s=21

[/php]

Here is the whole story and the part immediately below the graph. Don't worry, since this is an opinion piece on the Bloomberg site the spirit of the article is still against the tax cuts. However, even with the that the author admits that 1) it appears to be a mixed bag and 2) it's too early to tell.

Quote:But perhaps two quarters is too early to expect results in this area. A better gauge might be business investment — if the tax reform is spurring businesses to increase capital expenditure, as it was supposed to do, then wage increases will probably follow in due course.

Some have expressed dismay that stock buybacks seem to have taken precedence over boosting capital investment. Since the tax cuts passed, companies have been using buybacks to return record amounts of cash to shareholders — more than $700 billion in the first two quarters. That naturally raises the possibility that companies don’t have good projects to invest in. If companies pass their tax windfall on to shareholders, those investors can choose to react by increasing consumption — meaning more of society’s resources go to the wealthy. They can also choose to invest the money in other companies with better growth prospects — but if those companies are also reacting by returning the money to their shareholders, rather than making capital expenditures, not much is getting accomplished.

So is any of the tax-cut windfall being used to finance the capital expenditure that the economy needs? Private nonresidential fixed investment did increase as a share of the economy in the first two quarters since the reform was passed:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/...or-workers

Just wait til interest rates go up because of the tax cuts too...........


Double whammy.......


El o El indeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just wait til interest rates go up because of the tax cuts too...........


Double whammy.......


El o El indeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Do you know why the interest rates would HAVE to increase?

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2018 07:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Instead they have went down.

https://twitter.com/business/status/1020...04320?s=21

[/php]

Here is the whole story and the part immediately below the graph. Don't worry, since this is an opinion piece on the Bloomberg site the spirit of the article is still against the tax cuts. However, even with the that the author admits that 1) it appears to be a mixed bag and 2) it's too early to tell.

Quote:But perhaps two quarters is too early to expect results in this area. A better gauge might be business investment — if the tax reform is spurring businesses to increase capital expenditure, as it was supposed to do, then wage increases will probably follow in due course.

Some have expressed dismay that stock buybacks seem to have taken precedence over boosting capital investment. Since the tax cuts passed, companies have been using buybacks to return record amounts of cash to shareholders — more than $700 billion in the first two quarters. That naturally raises the possibility that companies don’t have good projects to invest in. If companies pass their tax windfall on to shareholders, those investors can choose to react by increasing consumption — meaning more of society’s resources go to the wealthy. They can also choose to invest the money in other companies with better growth prospects — but if those companies are also reacting by returning the money to their shareholders, rather than making capital expenditures, not much is getting accomplished.

So is any of the tax-cut windfall being used to finance the capital expenditure that the economy needs? Private nonresidential fixed investment did increase as a share of the economy in the first two quarters since the reform was passed:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/...or-workers

This my friends is how a discussion should go. I see a mixed bag also, but your ass in the grass basic Trump supporter. The guy who crossed over from voting from Obama. He's not getting the benefit in real wages. The rich. The 1%. Stock owners..... Yeah they are doing quite well.

Our country....... not so much.

Our environment..... not so much.

Our Health Care..... not so much

I could go on and on.......... Shame really.

(07-24-2018 07:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just wait til interest rates go up because of the tax cuts too...........


Double whammy.......


El o El indeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Do you know why the interest rates would HAVE to increase?

Easiest arrow in the quiver to tame inflation.

OK . 9 bells...

Have to go and put in a good days work. See you crazy cats tomorrow. Have a good one.

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2018 07:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Instead they have went down.

https://twitter.com/business/status/1020...04320?s=21

[/php]

Here is the whole story and the part immediately below the graph. Don't worry, since this is an opinion piece on the Bloomberg site the spirit of the article is still against the tax cuts. However, even with the that the author admits that 1) it appears to be a mixed bag and 2) it's too early to tell.

Quote:But perhaps two quarters is too early to expect results in this area. A better gauge might be business investment — if the tax reform is spurring businesses to increase capital expenditure, as it was supposed to do, then wage increases will probably follow in due course.

Some have expressed dismay that stock buybacks seem to have taken precedence over boosting capital investment. Since the tax cuts passed, companies have been using buybacks to return record amounts of cash to shareholders — more than $700 billion in the first two quarters. That naturally raises the possibility that companies don’t have good projects to invest in. If companies pass their tax windfall on to shareholders, those investors can choose to react by increasing consumption — meaning more of society’s resources go to the wealthy. They can also choose to invest the money in other companies with better growth prospects — but if those companies are also reacting by returning the money to their shareholders, rather than making capital expenditures, not much is getting accomplished.

So is any of the tax-cut windfall being used to finance the capital expenditure that the economy needs? Private nonresidential fixed investment did increase as a share of the economy in the first two quarters since the reform was passed:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/...or-workers

Thx. Miko

700 BILLION back to shareholders in the first two quarters...

Uhhhh, lemme see a show of hands of all that don’t have a 401k, own no stocks, no retirement fund or pension.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

When that money gets distributed, will you or your fund bury it in the back yard? Stuff it under your mattress?

Or, more likely, plow it back into investments, fixing up the house or buying a new car? Perhaps travel, spend some family time?

I.e. putting it to work in the American economy.

Elementary my dear Watson, not high skrool, elementary.

(07-24-2018 07:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just wait til interest rates go up because of the tax cuts too...........


Double whammy.......


El o El indeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Do you know why the interest rates would HAVE to increase?

Better question would be: Do you know why interest rates have been so low?

Will....never.....answer.....

(07-24-2018 07:57 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2018 07:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Instead they have went down.

https://twitter.com/business/status/1020...04320?s=21

[/php]

Here is the whole story and the part immediately below the graph. Don't worry, since this is an opinion piece on the Bloomberg site the spirit of the article is still against the tax cuts. However, even with the that the author admits that 1) it appears to be a mixed bag and 2) it's too early to tell.

Quote:But perhaps two quarters is too early to expect results in this area. A better gauge might be business investment — if the tax reform is spurring businesses to increase capital expenditure, as it was supposed to do, then wage increases will probably follow in due course.

Some have expressed dismay that stock buybacks seem to have taken precedence over boosting capital investment. Since the tax cuts passed, companies have been using buybacks to return record amounts of cash to shareholders — more than $700 billion in the first two quarters. That naturally raises the possibility that companies don’t have good projects to invest in. If companies pass their tax windfall on to shareholders, those investors can choose to react by increasing consumption — meaning more of society’s resources go to the wealthy. They can also choose to invest the money in other companies with better growth prospects — but if those companies are also reacting by returning the money to their shareholders, rather than making capital expenditures, not much is getting accomplished.

So is any of the tax-cut windfall being used to finance the capital expenditure that the economy needs? Private nonresidential fixed investment did increase as a share of the economy in the first two quarters since the reform was passed:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/...or-workers

This my friends is how a discussion should go. I see a mixed bag also, but your ass in the grass basic Trump supporter. The guy who crossed over from voting from Obama. He's not getting the benefit in real wages. The rich. The 1%. Stock owners..... Yeah they are doing quite well.

Our country....... not so much.

Our environment..... not so much.

Our Health Care..... not so much

I could go on and on.......... Shame really.

Wage growth issues are not new and have been with us for quite some time.

https://hbr.org/2017/10/why-wages-arent-...in-america

Quote:In a notable shift from earlier decades, labor’s share of income is no longer constant, but has fallen from nearly 65% in the mid-1970s to below 57% in 2017. Though some of this decline reflects measurement limitations, much of the decline is plausibly due to shifts in technology and market structure that have disadvantaged workers. Even as the share of income channeled to labor has declined, the distribution of income has become more unequal. Since the late 1970s, large wage gains have accrued to workers at the top of the distribution, and wages have been declining or stagnant for the bottom half of the income distribution.

Assigning relative responsibility to the policies and economic forces that underlie rising inequality or declining labor share is a challenge. International trade and technological progress have played significant roles, putting downward pressure on the wages of low-skilled workers. For example, as imports from low-wage countries made inroads into the manufacturing sector, job losses in the United States were substantial in some areas. At the same time, U.S. manufacturing has learned to produce more with fewer workers. Both developments generated widely shared benefits in the form of new products and lower prices, but also led to dislocation of some workers and downward pressure on less-skilled workers’ wages.

We also know that educated workers have fared better; the wages received by those who finished their education with a four-year college degree grew from 134% of high school graduates’ wages to 168%. While increasing educational attainment has helped to raise wages for many workers, it remains the case that the majority of Americans have not completed a four-year degree.

Domestic policy choices have mattered, too, especially because they have affected workers’ bargaining power and the allocation of wages across different workers. For example, the deteriorating value of the inflation-adjusted minimum wage, along with declining union membership, have lowered wages for many in the bottom and middle of the wage distribution.

A highlighted areas I thought most pertinent to the ultimate root causes of stagnant wage growth. The biggest combination of effects that are pushing down wages is the loss of workers in the mfg sector overall since those most affected by stagnant wages are the lower skilled workers. Cheap goods from low wage countries have forced U.S. companies to adapt or close down.

Also, for low skilled workers, the higher influx of illegal immigrants have also depressed wages for lower skilled workers. Not mentioned in the article, but it's another tangible factor of depressed wages.

(07-24-2018 07:58 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  

(07-24-2018 07:54 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-24-2018 07:53 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just wait til interest rates go up because of the tax cuts too...........


Double whammy.......


El o El indeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Do you know why the interest rates would HAVE to increase?

Easiest arrow in the quiver to tame inflation.

Yes, but more fundamental than that though is the current interest rates are too low due to fears of deflation for the past several years. Interest rates need to climb to what would be the more traditional levels that we've seen historically. These historically low rates have not been a boon for all. If you are an older American in retirement or expecting to retire shortly, your avenue of generating income from your portfolio has been weakened. The CD and bond ladder strategies are mostly ineffective without higher rates. Also, immediate annuities require significantly more principle to get the same return as you used to get in a "normal" interest rate environment. To counteract that, retirees need to chase yield via riskier assets.

(07-24-2018 08:00 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  OK . 9 bells...

Have to go and put in a good days work. See you crazy cats tomorrow. Have a good one.

I hope you're not teaching economics.

(07-23-2018 12:04 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  Personally, mine have gone up.

So no complaints from me.


Now, I was specifically told my healthcare costs would go DOWN, but instead they went up.

And UP!

And on top of rising costs to me, the quality of my plan -- I think they called it a Cadillac Plan -- dropped DRASTICALLY!

So, my promised, cheaper healthcare with the promised same plan and promised same doctor costs more and delivers less.

And that's been for quite a few years now.


Wait a minute... what were you saying again?

Great analogy. I seem to have missed Mach's posts complaining about Obama's lies about how a family's premiums would go down $2500 a year and they could keep their plan.

My wages are up. My wife's wages are up. Our taxes are down. My 401k is up. No complaints in my household.

(07-23-2018 09:44 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(07-23-2018 08:05 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Mach, hit reply and look at the code I bracketed the link with.

No hat in the ring for this debate but that graph is hideous. It makes a 2% drop look gargantuan.

Same here. Im skeptical anyway of these statistics. Our company actually did raise wages in the last year. First time BTW in 4 years.

(07-24-2018 10:13 AM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  My wages are up. My wife's wages are up. Our taxes are down. My 401k is up. No complaints in my household.

...and still with the tax cuts the treasury is filling up from tax revenue as per the New York Times. Wow. Magic.

Jeez Louise Ollie.....

If the coffers were swelling we wouldn’t be digging a deeper debt. Every single time R’s get all three branches that deficit swells bigly. EVERY SINGLE TIME. You would think you guys would have learned after the Bush tax cuts. Passing these tax breaks onto the top 1% DOESNT trickle down yet you guys keep on singing from the hymnal from that pew.

Why Chuck Schumer’s about to have a very bad week (hint: It’s the Trump economy, stupid)

Mach going to join Shumer in having a really bad week....

Quote:Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., is having a bad week – and it’s about to get worse. On Friday we’re expected to learn from the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis that the U.S. economy grew at a blistering pace in the second quarter of this year, further affirming the success of President Trump’s tax cuts and deregulatory efforts.

President Trump hinted at the good economic news in a tweet Tuesday, writing: “Our Country is doing GREAT. Best financial numbers on the Planet. Great to have USA WINNING AGAIN!”

Economists expect the Bureau of Economic Analysis report Friday will show that the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP) grew between 3.3 percent and 4.6 percent in the second quarter – showing not only a strong economy, but one that is accelerating.

Keep reading here...

(07-25-2018 07:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Jeez Louise Ollie.....

If the coffers were swelling we wouldn’t be digging a deeper debt. Every single time R’s get all three branches that deficit swells bigly. EVERY SINGLE TIME. You would think you guys would have learned after the Bush tax cuts. Passing these tax breaks onto the top 1% DOESNT trickle down yet you guys keep on singing from the hymnal from that pew.

You mean just like every time the Dems gain control?

That would be a neat graph. It’s exploded in the 2000’s. Color it red when the R’s control everything. Blue when D’s. Purple when it’s split.