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mturn017 Online
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Post: #21
RE: ban girl's soccer!
This article suggests that not only do girls get more concussions but they're more severe and the effects last longer. Interestingly the statistical difference doesn't exist in young children and seems to go away after menopause suggesting that it's hormonal. It also mentions that reporting of incidents of boys concussions may be underreported due to cultural reasons which would account for some of the difference. But there does seem to be a physiological aspect as well.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...-than-men/
07-12-2018 01:33 PM
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Hammersmith Offline
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Post: #22
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-12-2018 01:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  ACL tears are from collisions (mine on a basketball court with wide body big man ... side to side for a rebound), and more often bad turf.

Youth soccer is often played on fields with ruts and small holes and bad patches of turf. Also shoes worn are whatever people bring, sometimes the cleats are not right for the turf. I don't know how you fix that.

But, yes, I have noticed girls seem to suffer those injuries more than boys, and their game is if anything lower contact. But then again girls who play sports are often asked to play all sports because there are so many spots to fill and only 1/4th as many play. So the same girls are playing soccer, basketball, volleyball and are over stressing their bodies. Boys tend to specialize as the competition is much more intense for positions.

But we do need to understand more about girls physiology. It could be intrinsic to being human female, as specialization for tens of thousands of years put heavy hunting and running on males but not females, who tended to be gatherers. This shows up in different shoulder construction where girls retain the primate shoulder movement, while boys are specialized and piston form from throwing spears and projectiles in hunting (genetic advantage by specializing -- although elbows still stress easily from the loads shoulders transfer ... in evolution terms male arm development is in a transitional phase, not complete). This difference in stress levels of joints may extend to knees for females. One can only speculate on concussions -- I can't think of a reason, as it has to do with impact loads and the amount of extra space (empty) in the brain skull, and AFAIK there is no difference between the sexes on that.

Regarding the higher rate of female ACL injuries, I thought that was mostly settled. It was about one part differences in physiology and two parts cultural conditioning.

While the male knee is more resilient due to strong surrounding muscles, that wasn't enough to account for the differences. It also didn't explain why non-contact ACL injuries were higher in females. What the researchers found was that women tend to jump differently than men. And the reason for the difference is cultural/societal, not physiological.

When men land from a jump, our knees tend to either face straight forward or they angle slightly out. When women land from a jump, their knees tend to point inward. There isn't a strong physiological reason for this. What researchers assume, is that girls are conditioned from a young age to keep their knees together because of wearing skirts and dresses. Boys don't go through this conditioning. Because of this conditioning, it is more natural for a female athlete to jump and land with her knees pointed inward. This puts an additional stress on a vulnerable ligament. Couple it with it being a weaker joint already, and the combination explains the higher rate of female ACL injuries.

The solution is to retrain female athletes as soon as you can to jump and land correctly. You also add exercises that strengthen the muscles surrounding the knee. I believe programs that have done this have seen a marked improvement in injury rates. I think that this regimen is pretty common in DI programs today, and even among lower programs with a halfway decent female S&C coach. It's also being used in high schools with coaches that keep current. The info has been out for at least a decade. NDSU revamped this aspect of their S&C program after a rash of ACL tears at least seven years ago, and the knowledge wasn't new back then.
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2018 02:40 PM by Hammersmith.)
07-12-2018 02:39 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: ban girl's soccer!
https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/health/so...index.html

The authors "divided participants into four groups based on how often they headed the ball. The top group, on average, headed the ball 125 times in two weeks, while the bottom group averaged just four headers in that same time period."

Heading the ball that much seems riskier than boxing. It's just asking for long-term brain damage.
07-13-2018 09:14 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: ban girl's soccer!
I think in terms of concussions with girls- part of the thing is they have smaller necks so that hurts them- less of a shock absorber if you will.
07-13-2018 09:27 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #25
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-13-2018 09:14 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/health/so...index.html

The authors "divided participants into four groups based on how often they headed the ball. The top group, on average, headed the ball 125 times in two weeks, while the bottom group averaged just four headers in that same time period."

Heading the ball that much seems riskier than boxing. It's just asking for long-term brain damage.

Seems like they should ban 'heading' in college. It's such an inaccurate play anyway.
07-13-2018 09:43 AM
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mturn017 Online
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Post: #26
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-13-2018 09:43 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(07-13-2018 09:14 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/health/so...index.html

The authors "divided participants into four groups based on how often they headed the ball. The top group, on average, headed the ball 125 times in two weeks, while the bottom group averaged just four headers in that same time period."

Heading the ball that much seems riskier than boxing. It's just asking for long-term brain damage.

Seems like they should ban 'heading' in college. It's such an inaccurate play anyway.

They have in youth soccer I know. A lot of goals are scored that way though from crosses and corner kicks. It'd change the game a good deal.
07-13-2018 09:46 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #27
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-13-2018 09:46 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(07-13-2018 09:43 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(07-13-2018 09:14 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/health/so...index.html

The authors "divided participants into four groups based on how often they headed the ball. The top group, on average, headed the ball 125 times in two weeks, while the bottom group averaged just four headers in that same time period."

Heading the ball that much seems riskier than boxing. It's just asking for long-term brain damage.

Seems like they should ban 'heading' in college. It's such an inaccurate play anyway.

They have in youth soccer I know. A lot of goals are scored that way though from crosses and corner kicks. It'd change the game a good deal.

The injury risk from headers comes more from practice than from games.

If you play 2 games a week, you might have, what, 5 headers per player? You only get to the hundreds by doing it over-and-over in practice.
07-13-2018 10:03 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #28
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-13-2018 09:46 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(07-13-2018 09:43 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(07-13-2018 09:14 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/health/so...index.html

The authors "divided participants into four groups based on how often they headed the ball. The top group, on average, headed the ball 125 times in two weeks, while the bottom group averaged just four headers in that same time period."

Heading the ball that much seems riskier than boxing. It's just asking for long-term brain damage.

Seems like they should ban 'heading' in college. It's such an inaccurate play anyway.

They have in youth soccer I know. A lot of goals are scored that way though from crosses and corner kicks. It'd change the game a good deal.

It would change the game for sure, but to Bogg's point, it wouldn't fundamentally alter the overall game itself beyond recognition. 95% (or more) of each soccer game would still generally look like how it does now. It eliminates a particular type of play, yet the footwork and the vast majority of skills that it takes to play soccer at a high level are still being used if you never had headers.

The issue with football is that the only real way to eliminate concussions is to eliminate what draws us to football in the first place (as opposed to, say, rugby): players running into each other at full speed. Anything that reduces that aspect of the game truly does fundamentally change what we know as football... and I'm just not sure that most Americans are really interested in watching and/or playing something that's more along the lines of rugby.

I don't think we can pretend that some tweaks to the game of football or eliminating a certain type of play (as being suggested with eliminating headers in soccer) will reduce concussions. I also don't think we can pretend that the changes that would be needed to make football safer would be acceptable from a spectator perspective - we simply don't want to watch something like rugby. Ultimately, either players are going to have to be fine with the risk (just like with boxing) or we're not going to have many football players in a generation or two.
07-13-2018 11:10 AM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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Post: #29
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-12-2018 08:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Someone (maybe Bearcat) a bit back posted a link to an article regarding a study that was suggestive of the idea that any running sport, especially involving sudden starts, stops, and turns causes some level of brain injury.

Correct. The brain injury comes from the brain smashing against the inner part of the skull. The more forcefully a skull in motion is stopped or a skull at rest is moved, the worse the injury will be when the brain and bone meet.

This injury can happen in any sport, to anybody, in any given time. In fact, it can and does happen to non-sports playing people every day as well.

This is part of being a human being.
07-13-2018 02:14 PM
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Post: #30
RE: ban girl's soccer!
(07-13-2018 02:14 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(07-12-2018 08:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Someone (maybe Bearcat) a bit back posted a link to an article regarding a study that was suggestive of the idea that any running sport, especially involving sudden starts, stops, and turns causes some level of brain injury.

Correct. The brain injury comes from the brain smashing against the inner part of the skull. The more forcefully a skull in motion is stopped or a skull at rest is moved, the worse the injury will be when the brain and bone meet.

This injury can happen in any sport, to anybody, in any given time. In fact, it can and does happen to non-sports playing people every day as well.

This is part of being a human being.

The biggest incidence in football is in offensive linemen, not the people colliding at full speed. Its the constant collisions and banging of heads and hands and helmets. They may not get knocked out, but they do get concussions.
07-13-2018 03:50 PM
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