(07-10-2018 10:26 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 06:29 AM)Rice FB Fan Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 06:36 PM)Antarius Wrote:  The vast majority of students aren't going to play professionally. So the upside is near identical between Rice and HYP. If you want to get a good education and play football while playing in front of a few thousand fans and family, same thing.

I would respectfully assert that if you are the kind of kid that football is a big part of who your are - and you happen to be a really good student as well, Rice is the winner vs. HYP and certainly the other Ivys. If a player is good enough to use football to get into a good school, but football is not THAT important, then maybe it doesn't matter (and we need a team of the former).

Why is Rice the winner? Other than the pure classification of us being FBS vs them being FCS, how are we materially different now in execution or outcome?

Heck, we lost to a 6-5 FCS team in 2007 and had a 7-4 one rack up 44 points against us in 2007. Neither of those were good teams but clearly they take their football seriously.. or as seriously as we do.

Yep, every upset is an indictment on how serious a school takes its sports team.

As someone who played a lot of sports, you generally wanted to compete against better teams - so while we are stuck playing in CUSA, our competition is still generally better than the Ivy's, especially since we often get to challenge top tier universities like UT and LSU. So if you're a good athlete who wants to challenge themselves athletically and earn a good degree, it makes sense to come to Rice over an Ivy.

Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

(07-10-2018 11:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 10:26 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 06:29 AM)Rice FB Fan Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 06:36 PM)Antarius Wrote:  The vast majority of students aren't going to play professionally. So the upside is near identical between Rice and HYP. If you want to get a good education and play football while playing in front of a few thousand fans and family, same thing.

I would respectfully assert that if you are the kind of kid that football is a big part of who your are - and you happen to be a really good student as well, Rice is the winner vs. HYP and certainly the other Ivys. If a player is good enough to use football to get into a good school, but football is not THAT important, then maybe it doesn't matter (and we need a team of the former).

Why is Rice the winner? Other than the pure classification of us being FBS vs them being FCS, how are we materially different now in execution or outcome?

Heck, we lost to a 6-5 FCS team in 2007 and had a 7-4 one rack up 44 points against us in 2007. Neither of those were good teams but clearly they take their football seriously.. or as seriously as we do.

Yep, every upset is an indictment on how serious a school takes its sports team.

As someone who played a lot of sports, you generally wanted to compete against better teams - so while we are stuck playing in CUSA, our competition is still generally better than the Ivy's, especially since we often get to challenge top tier universities like UT and LSU. So if you're a good athlete who wants to challenge themselves athletically and earn a good degree, it makes sense to come to Rice over an Ivy.

Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

I sure hope we upset Houston this year to show how unserious they are about their athletic program.

With the realignment upheaval beginning, this thread came to mind, so, as I often like to do

(07-10-2018 11:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 10:26 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 06:29 AM)Rice FB Fan Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 06:36 PM)Antarius Wrote:  The vast majority of students aren't going to play professionally. So the upside is near identical between Rice and HYP. If you want to get a good education and play football while playing in front of a few thousand fans and family, same thing.

I would respectfully assert that if you are the kind of kid that football is a big part of who your are - and you happen to be a really good student as well, Rice is the winner vs. HYP and certainly the other Ivys. If a player is good enough to use football to get into a good school, but football is not THAT important, then maybe it doesn't matter (and we need a team of the former).

Why is Rice the winner? Other than the pure classification of us being FBS vs them being FCS, how are we materially different now in execution or outcome?

Heck, we lost to a 6-5 FCS team in 2007 and had a 7-4 one rack up 44 points against us in 2007. Neither of those were good teams but clearly they take their football seriously.. or as seriously as we do.

Yep, every upset is an indictment on how serious a school takes its sports team.

As someone who played a lot of sports, you generally wanted to compete against better teams - so while we are stuck playing in CUSA, our competition is still generally better than the Ivy's, especially since we often get to challenge top tier universities like UT and LSU. So if you're a good athlete who wants to challenge themselves athletically and earn a good degree, it makes sense to come to Rice over an Ivy.

Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

There are hardly any Ivy league alumni playing in the NFL, Rice still has about 10 and that has stayed close to constant for over a decade.

(07-10-2018 11:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

Oh - they give scholarships to athletes (and have a separate entrance standard). They just dress up other scholarships, but they're really for athletes. Princeton, for example, has 57 women on its track and field roster, with 21 of those running cross country. As recently as 2018, Princeton women's cross country was ranked 17th nationally, one of 3 Ivy League schools among the top 30.

There's zero chance that the Ivies just happen to find so many highly intelligent, rich, talented runners. Plus, not only does their "no scholarship" policy make them (falsely) admired, it gives them a HUGE recruiting advantage because they have, in effect, UNLIMITED scholarships, and are not bound by the NCAA's limit of 18.

It's all a scam.

(07-28-2021 09:04 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 11:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

Oh - they give scholarships to athletes (and have a separate entrance standard). They just dress up other scholarships, but they're really for athletes. Princeton, for example, has 57 women on its track and field roster, with 21 of those running cross country. As recently as 2018, Princeton women's cross country was ranked 17th nationally, one of 3 Ivy League schools among the top 30.
There's zero chance that the Ivies just happen to find so many highly intelligent, rich, talented runners. Plus, not only does their "no scholarship" policy make them (falsely) admired, it gives them a HUGE recruiting advantage because they have, in effect, UNLIMITED scholarships, and are not bound by the NCAA's limit of 18.
It's all a scam.

The Ivies' support of non-revenue sports puts Rice to shame. They have far more of them, and they support them much more heavily than Rice does.

I was at the rugby final four in Tampa in 2000. They did men and women at the same venue. Princeton was in the women's championship final against Penn State, and Katie Stewart of Princeton won the Sorensen Award (women's rugby's "Heisman") that year. Princeton had an alumni pregame event with a tent and food and beverages, pretty much the same size as the R Association tent for Rice football, and about the same size crowd (I'm guessing mostly Wall Streeters who had retired to Florida). They had coaches in the press box spotting and talking down to coaches on the field on headsets, and about 4-5 assistants scurrying around doing whatever. I remember thinking that their level of support for women's rugby approached Rice's for football.

(07-28-2021 09:04 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-10-2018 11:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Plus, going to Rice over an Ivy to play football means you're going to get an athletic scholarship, where as you won't for an Ivy. You're going to have to rely on other types of aid of scholarships at D3 schools.

Oh - they give scholarships to athletes (and have a separate entrance standard). They just dress up other scholarships, but they're really for athletes. Princeton, for example, has 57 women on its track and field roster, with 21 of those running cross country. As recently as 2018, Princeton women's cross country was ranked 17th nationally, one of 3 Ivy League schools among the top 30.

There's zero chance that the Ivies just happen to find so many highly intelligent, rich, talented runners. Plus, not only does their "no scholarship" policy make them (falsely) admired, it gives them a HUGE recruiting advantage because they have, in effect, UNLIMITED scholarships, and are not bound by the NCAA's limit of 18.

It's all a scam.

Well this is an old thread...

Going back to it, I was focusing on football, which doesn't have the same sort of scholarship limitations other sports (like track) have. So while yes, the Ivies do regularly find scholarships for athletes, they do not always do so. Two of my good friends both paid their way for soccer and baseball at Yale. And had they gone to a non-Ivy, they may have had to pay their own way too.

So my point was that in football, where the vast majority of football players are scholarship athletes at a non-Ivy, you are basically guaranteed a scholarship. But at an Ivy, that is not the case. For non-rev sports, where you aren't guaranteed a scholarship at a non-Ivy, the potential downside of not getting a merit scholarship at an Ivy is less because you may have been paying your way at a non-Ivy anyways.

So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  [
So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

Well, okay, but you're just wrong about the Ivies and what they are doing.

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

The endowments for schools like Ivys and Rice provide vastly more support than at most other schools.

Said differently (though I may get the numbers wrong)... based on the Rice investment, we can give a full need based scholarship to anyone whose family makes less than 150k/yr. Have 6,000 students on full scholarships, competing in athletics. Same for the Ivy's. Even UT with the PUF can't do that. Nobody else in CUSA could even remotely come close.

You're exactly right... why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they recruited you in a non-rev? That's precisely why we should be dominating CUSA in non-revs. While of course Rice isn't for everyone, Why would you run track to pay for a UTEP degree when you could put forth exactly the same effort and get a Rice degree??

(07-29-2021 03:10 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  [
So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

Well, okay, but you're just wrong about the Ivies and what they are doing.

How so? Are you saying all athletes at Ivy's are on some form of scholarship?

(07-29-2021 05:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 03:10 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  [
So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

Well, okay, but you're just wrong about the Ivies and what they are doing.

How so? Are you saying all athletes at Ivy's are on some form of scholarship?

I believe the implication is that if the Ivies want you as an athlete, they can find a 'scholarship' for you.

I'm not sure why your two friends who participated in athletics didn't receive a scholarship or some other form of support.

I vaguely remember one, or more, SEC schools offered (non athletic) scholarships (to athletes) from lottery money if you met nominal academic criteria. Not sure if that is still happening, but it was reported at the time (several or possibly many years ago).

It would be easy enough (save for funding) to provide scholarships for anyone receiving a Pell Grant. I knew a few Pell Grant recipients who knew how to bend the rules in their favor.

(07-30-2021 04:29 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 05:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 03:10 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  [
So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

Well, okay, but you're just wrong about the Ivies and what they are doing.

How so? Are you saying all athletes at Ivy's are on some form of scholarship?

I believe the implication is that if the Ivies want you as an athlete, they can find a 'scholarship' for you.

I'm not sure why your two friends who participated in athletics didn't receive a scholarship or some other form of support.

I vaguely remember one, or more, SEC schools offered (non athletic) scholarships (to athletes) from lottery money if you met nominal academic criteria. Not sure if that is still happening, but it was reported at the time (several or possibly many years ago).

It would be easy enough (save for funding) to provide scholarships for anyone receiving a Pell Grant. I knew a few Pell Grant recipients who knew how to bend the rules in their favor.

Florida still has Bright Futures, so yes, if you are an in-state student and meet the requirements you’ll get money (which is lottery funded, IIRC).

To the Ivies - I did some more reading on this issue, because what you and WRC are saying doesn’t jive with my anecdotal evidence, so I was interested in finding out more. Everything I’ve read indicates the Ivies don’t even hand out merit-based scholarships, just really good financial aid. So that would explain why my friends paid their way.

And to me, this doesn’t contradict the fact that they can recruit and retain high-level talent in non-rev sports. Getting into an Ivy is enough of a reward to recruit someone who likely would have had to pay their way at another school.

(07-29-2021 03:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why would you run track to pay for a UTEP degree when you could put forth exactly the same effort and get a Rice degree??

I dont think that the case. That is, coming from a connoisseur of summer credits from one of those fine institutions.

(07-30-2021 09:28 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 03:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why would you run track to pay for a UTEP degree when you could put forth exactly the same effort and get a Rice degree??

I dont think that the case. That is, coming from a connoisseur of summer credits from one of those fine institutions.

My summer credits came from TCU. I took a math course to satisfy the requirement for my major of one math course. It was taught from the same book as the one at Rice that I had flunked. However, although it it was the basic freshman course at Rice, at TCU it was a junior level course open only to math majors, and I had to get permission from the department head. In 2 summer semesters we went one chapter farther than we had reached at Rice by Thanksgiving, when I gave up. Made a A.

TCU had offered me a full scholarship in math. Based on this, i think I could have graduated TCU with a math degree.

I took Physics 101 (plus the lab) at UH... got an A and got high school credit.

Yes, I'm serious.

(07-30-2021 05:59 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-30-2021 04:29 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 05:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 03:10 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-29-2021 08:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  [
So for runners, who are far less likely to go pro and make a living at their sport, and who may have to pay their own way at any school they go to, why wouldn't you attend an Ivy if they're recruiting you? The unlimited scholarships you're talking about exist in the exact same way at all other universities - we've talked about it extensively in regards to baseball.

Well, okay, but you're just wrong about the Ivies and what they are doing.

How so? Are you saying all athletes at Ivy's are on some form of scholarship?

I believe the implication is that if the Ivies want you as an athlete, they can find a 'scholarship' for you.

I'm not sure why your two friends who participated in athletics didn't receive a scholarship or some other form of support.

I vaguely remember one, or more, SEC schools offered (non athletic) scholarships (to athletes) from lottery money if you met nominal academic criteria. Not sure if that is still happening, but it was reported at the time (several or possibly many years ago).

It would be easy enough (save for funding) to provide scholarships for anyone receiving a Pell Grant. I knew a few Pell Grant recipients who knew how to bend the rules in their favor.

Florida still has Bright Futures, so yes, if you are an in-state student and meet the requirements you’ll get money (which is lottery funded, IIRC).

To the Ivies - I did some more reading on this issue, because what you and WRC are saying doesn’t jive with my anecdotal evidence, so I was interested in finding out more. Everything I’ve read indicates the Ivies don’t even hand out merit-based scholarships, just really good financial aid. So that would explain why my friends paid their way.

And to me, this doesn’t contradict the fact that they can recruit and retain high-level talent in non-rev sports. Getting into an Ivy is enough of a reward to recruit someone who likely would have had to pay their way at another school.

FWIW, my understanding is the same as Lad's -- the Ivies aren't able to promise recruits "we'll pay your way," i.e. with a scholarship, but they are able to promise the full generosity of their financial aid programs, which can yield complete full rides to kids from lower middle-class families, full tuition (which is about an 80% full ride) to a solidly middle class family, and even pretty considerable $$ to upper middle class families.

And for student-athlete families that are truly upper class, I'd have no problem believing that they'd willingly choose to pay full freight at an Ivy over full, partial, or even no freight at lower-tier schools. We've certainly seen with Varsity Blues that just a seat at tip-top schools -- that then has to be paid for at normal rates -- has a market value of 5 to 6 figures.

What I do think the Ivies "get away with" is that they lower their admissions standards for recruited athletes to a far greater degree than people think. The US Attorney here in Chicago played football at Harvard -- he had an SAT score "around 1100."

(07-30-2021 02:54 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  FWIW, my understanding is the same as Lad's -- the Ivies aren't able to promise recruits "we'll pay your way,"

I think that as they say they can't "promise" that their way will be paid, it comes with a wink and a nudge, or maybe air quotes…

(07-30-2021 03:20 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-30-2021 02:54 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  FWIW, my understanding is the same as Lad's -- the Ivies aren't able to promise recruits "we'll pay your way,"

I think that as they say they can't "promise" that their way will be paid, it comes with a wink and a nudge, or maybe air quotes..

Winner, winner chicken dinner.

(07-30-2021 11:45 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(07-30-2021 03:20 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-30-2021 02:54 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  FWIW, my understanding is the same as Lad's -- the Ivies aren't able to promise recruits "we'll pay your way,"

I think that as they say they can't "promise" that their way will be paid, it comes with a wink and a nudge, or maybe air quotes..

Winner, winner chicken dinner.

What method do they use to pay players? Do they bend the rules on their financial aid?

My first duty assignment after graduating from Rice and becoming and officer and gentleman by act of congress was communications officer school in Newport, RI. I ended up renting a house with 4 other single junior officers. One of them had gone to the University of North Carolina, and had a fraternity brother whose father was a Yale graduate and crude oil trader in New York City. In that business he had dealt a lot with the Rockefellers, and somewhere along the way he had bought a vacation house from one of them on Cape Cod. We would go out there on weekends. The caretaker was a guy who was a tight end on the Yale football team who was being paid something like $5K/month to live in the house and keep someone from stealing it. That's how they do it.