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interwebowl Offline
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Post: #1
where does Rice athletics $s come from
Interesting story in today's chronicle about funding differences in the athletic departments of Texas public Universities. No surprise in gaps between P5 and the rest, but the interesting thing was the source of the revenue.

They broke down the revenue into the following categories:

Student fees
Direct Institutional Support
Ticket Sales
Contributions
Media Rights
Royalties, Licensing and Ads

Does anyone know what Rice's totals are and how much comes from these various sources?
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2018 06:02 PM by interwebowl.)
06-17-2018 06:01 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
Per the 2015-2016 Owl Club brochure (doubt much has changed much since then, except I would guess that institutional support has gone up):

(in millions)

Student fees - not listed, probably included in Direct Institutional Support
Direct Institutional Support - $23.03
Ticket Sales - $1.59
Contributions - $3.50
Media Rights and Royalties, Licensing and Ads - $0.72
Earnings from Endowment - $2.10
NCAA/Conference Distributions - $3.88 (probably down significantly since then)
Guarantees - $1.12
Other - $1.42
Total - $37.36

(06-17-2018 06:01 PM)interwebowl Wrote:  Interesting story in today's chronicle about funding differences in the athletic departments of Texas public Universities. No surprise in gaps between P5 and the rest, but the interesting thing was the source of the revenue.

They broke down the revenue into the following categories:

Student fees
Direct Institutional Support
Ticket Sales
Contributions
Media Rights
Royalties, Licensing and Ads

Does anyone know what Rice's totals are and how much comes from these various sources?
06-17-2018 06:34 PM
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texowl2 Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant. I believe that that the "support" is the rack rates for the scholarships and not the true out of pocket costs of the scholarships. What is the true cost of the room and board? Ok you can have that and I am not talking opportunity costs. Tuition doesn't count unless you count the true incremental costs.

What I'd like to see is what are the cash inflows and what are the cash outflows. The net differential is the true "institutional support".

Once you get reality, the short version is that it is not enough as the those other cash inflows can't possibly be increasing given all the issues of the past 3, 12, 23, or 50 years. And to ignore that is to ignore the patient and let him die despite obvious signs of disease.
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2018 11:20 AM by texowl2.)
06-17-2018 10:59 PM
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.

Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
06-18-2018 09:06 AM
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texowl2 Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.

Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?

I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.
06-18-2018 11:28 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.
Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.

About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price.

Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?
06-18-2018 11:52 AM
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 11:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.
Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.

About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price.

Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?

Isn’t that why we have to pay for parking now? Rice parking isn’t the same as Rice athletics so they have to charge $5 and pay Rice parking for use of the lots? I don’t mind paying for parking because it’s cheap and way better than any other large sporting event but it’s stupid for departments to charge each other and report it as revenue/expenses.
06-18-2018 12:15 PM
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Post: #8
RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 12:15 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.
Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.

About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price.

Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?

Isn’t that why we have to pay for parking now? Rice parking isn’t the same as Rice athletics so they have to charge $5 and pay Rice parking for use of the lots? I don’t mind paying for parking because it’s cheap and way better than any other large sporting event but it’s stupid for departments to charge each other and report it as revenue/expenses.

That's how most large organizations function now.
06-18-2018 12:42 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 12:15 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 10:59 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  When I see these types of numbers, given my background in financial, the so called "institutional support" drives me crazy as those numbers are total crap and makes the university support look significant.
Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.
About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price. Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?
Isn’t that why we have to pay for parking now? Rice parking isn’t the same as Rice athletics so they have to charge $5 and pay Rice parking for use of the lots? I don’t mind paying for parking because it’s cheap and way better than any other large sporting event but it’s stupid for departments to charge each other and report it as revenue/expenses.

As I understand, yes.
06-18-2018 12:50 PM
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cr11owl Online
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 12:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 12:15 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.

About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price.

Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?

Isn’t that why we have to pay for parking now? Rice parking isn’t the same as Rice athletics so they have to charge $5 and pay Rice parking for use of the lots? I don’t mind paying for parking because it’s cheap and way better than any other large sporting event but it’s stupid for departments to charge each other and report it as revenue/expenses.

That's how most large organizations function now.

The point is the $ all comes from/goes to the same place, Rice. The fact that our tuition has gone up to 50k/ year thanks to a bloated administration means that they “charge” athletics a couple thousand % more than they did a few decades ago. So university support is most likely down quite a bit from where it should be if we want to stay at the D1 level.
06-18-2018 12:57 PM
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 12:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 12:15 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 11:28 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 09:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Do you think the institutional support should be MORE than 2/3 of the budget?
I do not believe it is the roughly 2/3rd's that is shown therein as I suspect as I noted that a large chunk of that number is funny money bookeeping and not true out of pocket. University's are the hallmark of fuzzy math as they just don't want stakeholders to know where all the money is being spent.

About half of the institutional support number was scholarship costs, the last time those data were reported in the Owl Club materials. At some point, the method of calculating those costs was changed. Formerly, it was a net number based on the average actually paid by non-athlete students, after financial aid. That was changed several years ago and the cost charged to the athletic department now represents 100% full sticker price.

Obviously the questions you have raised apply to scholarship costs, however calculated. Is there a cash cost? Is there an opportunity cost from having a student-athlete sit in that chair versus a non-athlete? What are the offsetting benefits?

Isn’t that why we have to pay for parking now? Rice parking isn’t the same as Rice athletics so they have to charge $5 and pay Rice parking for use of the lots? I don’t mind paying for parking because it’s cheap and way better than any other large sporting event but it’s stupid for departments to charge each other and report it as revenue/expenses.

That's how most large organizations function now.

Damn -- I couldve shown a huge profit center to my companies where I was the only in-house attorney.

Brilliant! I now have a way to show that I would be indispensable if I ever do another startup gig!
06-18-2018 12:58 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-17-2018 06:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Per the 2015-2016 Owl Club brochure (doubt much has changed much since then, except I would guess that institutional support has gone up):

(in millions)

Student fees - not listed, probably included in Direct Institutional Support
Direct Institutional Support - $23.03
Ticket Sales - $1.59
Contributions - $3.50
Media Rights and Royalties, Licensing and Ads - $0.72
Earnings from Endowment - $2.10
NCAA/Conference Distributions - $3.88 (probably down significantly since then)
Guarantees - $1.12
Other - $1.42
Total - $37.36

The 2016-17 numbers are (in millions):

University Support - $23.38
Ticket Sales - $1.89
Contributions - $3.89 (Owl Club + SIGs)
Media Rights and Royalties, Licensing and Ads - $1.32 ("Sponsorships" in Ricespeak)
Earnings from Endowment - $2.9
NCAA/Conference Distributions - $3.4
Guarantees - $0.57
Other - $1.75 (royalties, concessions, parking, outside event rentals, etc.)
Total - $39.13
06-18-2018 02:31 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 02:31 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 06:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Per the 2015-2016 Owl Club brochure (doubt much has changed much since then, except I would guess that institutional support has gone up):

(in millions)

Student fees - not listed, probably included in Direct Institutional Support
Direct Institutional Support - $23.03
Ticket Sales - $1.59
Contributions - $3.50
Media Rights and Royalties, Licensing and Ads - $0.72
Earnings from Endowment - $2.10
NCAA/Conference Distributions - $3.88 (probably down significantly since then)
Guarantees - $1.12
Other - $1.42
Total - $37.36

The 2016-17 numbers are (in millions):

University Support - $23.38
Ticket Sales - $1.89
Contributions - $3.89 (Owl Club + SIGs)
Media Rights and Royalties, Licensing and Ads - $1.32 ("Sponsorships" in Ricespeak)
Earnings from Endowment - $2.9
NCAA/Conference Distributions - $3.4
Guarantees - $0.57
Other - $1.75 (royalties, concessions, parking, outside event rentals, etc.)
Total - $39.13


Is money from the Board of trustees included in the University Support bucket?

At worst, these numbers would correspond to about $5000/student if the University Support bucket came solely from student tuition and fees.
06-18-2018 02:41 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
20 per cent growth in ticket sales income between the two reports. break out the champagne!
06-18-2018 04:47 PM
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cr11owl Online
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
How many full scholarships do we have? That figure x $60k is probably a large chunck of “university support”. I’m guessing $60k is a bit less than what we actually value a full ride at for athletes. It wouldn’t surprise me if university support is almost entirely scholarships and we’re running the rest of the athletic dept on the difference (scholarships that would probably be given out anyway even if they weren’t classified as athletic ones). It’s pretty shameful how neglected our athletics program is and yet the clowns in the admin get away with adding BS positions and stuffing their pockets. Leebron’s salary plus + living + travel probably exceeds 5% of our athletic budget alone.
06-18-2018 05:21 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 05:21 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  How many full scholarships do we have? That figure x $60k is probably a large chunck of “university support”. I’m guessing $60k is a bit less than what we actually value a full ride at for athletes. It wouldn’t surprise me if university support is almost entirely scholarships and we’re running the rest of the athletic dept on the difference (scholarships that would probably be given out anyway even if they weren’t classified as athletic ones). It’s pretty shameful how neglected our athletics program is and yet the clowns in the admin get away with adding BS positions and stuffing their pockets. Leebron’s salary plus + living + travel probably exceeds 5% of our athletic budget alone.

Leebron's compensation is in line with his peers at other universities. All universities including the ones with well-funded athletic programs have much larger administrative staffs than in the past. Administrative costs is a completely separate issue from athletics.
06-18-2018 05:30 PM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #17
RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 05:21 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  How many full scholarships do we have? That figure x $60k is probably a large chunck of “university support”. I’m guessing $60k is a bit less than what we actually value a full ride at for athletes. It wouldn’t surprise me if university support is almost entirely scholarships and we’re running the rest of the athletic dept on the difference (scholarships that would probably be given out anyway even if they weren’t classified as athletic ones). It’s pretty shameful how neglected our athletics program is and yet the clowns in the admin get away with adding BS positions and stuffing their pockets. Leebron’s salary plus + living + travel probably exceeds 5% of our athletic budget alone.

Tuition is 45k. If we assume 60k is the total package that turns into 390 full scholarships.

the broader issue isn't what the 23 million is composed of. It is that 62% of the Athletic Department revenue is from the University. Which means the department generates pittance for itself which is simply unsustainable at the D1 level.

More money from the University wont fix the fact that the department is a money sink with nearly no revenue streams or future revenue potential. right now, more institutional support is akin to the bailout of Alitalia.
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2018 05:46 PM by Antarius.)
06-18-2018 05:46 PM
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 05:46 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 05:21 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  How many full scholarships do we have? That figure x $60k is probably a large chunck of “university support”. I’m guessing $60k is a bit less than what we actually value a full ride at for athletes. It wouldn’t surprise me if university support is almost entirely scholarships and we’re running the rest of the athletic dept on the difference (scholarships that would probably be given out anyway even if they weren’t classified as athletic ones). It’s pretty shameful how neglected our athletics program is and yet the clowns in the admin get away with adding BS positions and stuffing their pockets. Leebron’s salary plus + living + travel probably exceeds 5% of our athletic budget alone.

Tuition is 45k. If we assume 60k is the total package that turns into 390 full scholarships.

the broader issue isn't what the 23 million is composed of. It is that 62% of the Athletic Department revenue is from the University. Which means the department generates pittance for itself which is simply unsustainable at the D1 level.

More money from the University wont fix the fact that the department is a money sink with nearly no revenue streams or future revenue potential. right now, more institutional support is akin to the bailout of Alitalia.

Not if you think athletics is an essential piece of the university. Then you should fully fund it to success.
06-18-2018 05:53 PM
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Antarius Offline
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
(06-18-2018 05:53 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 05:46 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 05:21 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  How many full scholarships do we have? That figure x $60k is probably a large chunck of “university support”. I’m guessing $60k is a bit less than what we actually value a full ride at for athletes. It wouldn’t surprise me if university support is almost entirely scholarships and we’re running the rest of the athletic dept on the difference (scholarships that would probably be given out anyway even if they weren’t classified as athletic ones). It’s pretty shameful how neglected our athletics program is and yet the clowns in the admin get away with adding BS positions and stuffing their pockets. Leebron’s salary plus + living + travel probably exceeds 5% of our athletic budget alone.

Tuition is 45k. If we assume 60k is the total package that turns into 390 full scholarships.

the broader issue isn't what the 23 million is composed of. It is that 62% of the Athletic Department revenue is from the University. Which means the department generates pittance for itself which is simply unsustainable at the D1 level.

More money from the University wont fix the fact that the department is a money sink with nearly no revenue streams or future revenue potential. right now, more institutional support is akin to the bailout of Alitalia.

Not if you think athletics is an essential piece of the university. Then you should fully fund it to success.

Which is again, impossible without the Direct support going from 23 million to 75 million if not more. At which point, the opportunity cost loss is so large it will dwarf the potential gains. Rice has a capped revenue upside of like 15 million USD. A competitive D1 program needs several times that. Unless Rice can find a way to raise that cap on the revenue upside in a timely fashion, it is impossible to do so.

heck with such a low upside, the on-again-off-again plan by Malaysia Airlines to run a380 Hajj charters seems like a solid financial plan compared to this.
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2018 06:05 PM by Antarius.)
06-18-2018 06:00 PM
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RE: where does Rice athletics $s come from
At least there were no Zimbabwe references present today.
06-18-2018 06:18 PM
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