Exposure/TV revenue and the marketing effect from being on TV are two very different things, but both have value. I'm not sure how Rice/Trinity are even close to equivalent from a "marketing as a result of exposure" perspective. The TV revenues we earn are obviously a joke, but how many people know about Rice from watching us compete on ESPN/CBS Sports, etc. in various sports? Now compare that to Trinity...when was the last time they were on ESPN...that fifteen-some-odd lateral highlight against Millsaps a decade ago?

(06-20-2018 01:24 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Exposure/TV revenue and the marketing effect from being on TV are two very different things, but both have value. I'm not sure how Rice/Trinity are even close to equivalent from a "marketing as a result of exposure" perspective. The TV revenues we earn are obviously a joke, but how many people know about Rice from watching us compete on ESPN/CBS Sports, etc. in various sports? Now compare that to Trinity...when was the last time they were on ESPN...that fifteen-some-odd lateral highlight against Millsaps a decade ago?

Good question - I would argue the number is minimal. TV revenue is an indicator of how few eyeball are focused on Rice athletics. the empty stadiums are another indicator. Sure, we are ON ESPN more than Trinity, but given our attendance, ticket sales, rapidly degrading third rate conference etc. has ESPN/CBS exposure gotten us anything?

With a season ticket holder median age over 60, the last 20 years of TV and other forms of exposure going gangbusters has not had a measurable impact on Rice.

(06-20-2018 12:41 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:42 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  With D-1 athletics, scholarships tied to athletic participation provide players who couldn’t afford to go to Rice an avenue to do so.

Offering scholarships is great, but if that's the principal goal, an athletics program is about the LEAST efficient way one could think of do it.

Kind of.

I do think it's an efficient way of increasing diversity that transcends race. While some Rice athletes inevitably can't hang at Rice academically, a lot of ones that do, do so because of how motivated and focused they are, which is often something they learned playing sports at a high level. So if you tried to target other students with similar SAT scores or grades to try and broaden our student body in the same way, I imagine more of them would fail out of Rice than out athletes do.

(06-20-2018 01:48 PM)Antarius Wrote:  With a season ticket holder median age over 60 ...

Do you have data to support that claim? If so can you share it?

(06-20-2018 09:54 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 07:06 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Before doing anything about the D1/D3 debate, the university needs to wait and see if there is a breakup within the P5.

The next round will end up with 4 megaconferences of 16 each with two divisions of 8. In football, 11 games in conference 7 in division and 4 cross division or perhaps more likely 2 cross division, then 1 or 3 out of conference. Playoff in conference. Winner gets autobids to 8 team playoffs with 4 wild cards.

Anybody not in the 64 will be in subconferences and there is always basketball if you can convince kids not to transfer up.

Makes too much sense even for this bunch of egomaniac idiots.

Rice's hope is to somehow land in a decent subconference. Alternatively, hope Trinity will allow us in their conference.

In the QA session in the Austin Coaches Caravan JK pretty much implied that was going to be the 'next thing'. It may be forced on the NCAA due to litigation in the 9th circuit as early as next year.

JK said that it could very well occur that the P5 will shatter into the "paid-for athletes / very big ticket for-business model / training leagues" groups and those that will shy away from jumping into that pool headfirst. Think of a cleave between the (UTexas / LSU / Florida / Michigan / Ohio State / Oklahoma / USC)-type bunch who will directly and unambiguously jump into that arena; and the (Tulane / Vanderbilt / Northwestern )-types that will naturally group into the 'not big business' model.

It would be interesting to see where Notre Dame, Penn State, TCUs fall when that split occur. And such a split could be a life jacket tossed to Rice.

There is NFW we ever go P5 'present day' with our sports revenues, funding, and tbh, Rice's 'mission' that results in the prototypical Rice student body. There is NFW for that route presently because we have to make up 50 years of 'costing wars' --- not gonna happen. So right now we are stuck in this 'how the hell do we make up ground in this?' dilenma.

But with that type of 'uber p5' / remnants who dont want to take it to *that* level, it could very well be the entre to move up at a far lower cost than today --- simply because that entire 'second level' willbe by definition playing on a completely different money field than the 'uber p5' that could pop out.

No one can say that NCAA athletics / athletes are *not* on that trajectory currently.

(06-20-2018 02:34 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 01:48 PM)Antarius Wrote:  With a season ticket holder median age over 60 ...

Do you have data to support that claim? If so can you share it?

I do.
None of the cool kids want to sit in his section.
But the hard-of-hearing fans "of a certain age" don't mind him nearly as much.
Therefore: Median age in his section is disproportionately high.

(06-20-2018 09:00 PM)owl at the moon Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 02:34 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 01:48 PM)Antarius Wrote:  With a season ticket holder median age over 60 ...

Do you have data to support that claim? If so can you share it?

I do.
None of the cool kids want to sit in his section.
But the hard-of-hearing fans "of a certain age" don't mind him nearly as much.
Therefore: Median age in his section is disproportionately high.

I do have the data, but need to ask whether I can share the actual data.

Your efforts are laudably cute though. Please pick out 500 "cool kids" next time. Please do. Heck, let's start with 250 to go against the 2500 actual people there (and I can find data for that too)

maybe we can get them streamimg the game at least. it's a start

(06-20-2018 05:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 09:54 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 07:06 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Before doing anything about the D1/D3 debate, the university needs to wait and see if there is a breakup within the P5.

The next round will end up with 4 megaconferences of 16 each with two divisions of 8. In football, 11 games in conference 7 in division and 4 cross division or perhaps more likely 2 cross division, then 1 or 3 out of conference. Playoff in conference. Winner gets autobids to 8 team playoffs with 4 wild cards.

Anybody not in the 64 will be in subconferences and there is always basketball if you can convince kids not to transfer up.

Makes too much sense even for this bunch of egomaniac idiots.

Rice's hope is to somehow land in a decent subconference. Alternatively, hope Trinity will allow us in their conference.

In the QA session in the Austin Coaches Caravan JK pretty much implied that was going to be the 'next thing'. It may be forced on the NCAA due to litigation in the 9th circuit as early as next year.

JK said that it could very well occur that the P5 will shatter into the "paid-for athletes / very big ticket for-business model / training leagues" groups and those that will shy away from jumping into that pool headfirst. Think of a cleave between the (UTexas / LSU / Florida / Michigan / Ohio State / Oklahoma / USC)-type bunch who will directly and unambiguously jump into that arena; and the (Tulane / Vanderbilt / Northwestern )-types that will naturally group into the 'not big business' model.

It would be interesting to see where Notre Dame, Penn State, TCUs fall when that split occur. And such a split could be a life jacket tossed to Rice.

There is NFW we ever go P5 'present day' with our sports revenues, funding, and tbh, Rice's 'mission' that results in the prototypical Rice student body. There is NFW for that route presently because we have to make up 50 years of 'costing wars' --- not gonna happen. So right now we are stuck in this 'how the hell do we make up ground in this?' dilenma.

But with that type of 'uber p5' / remnants who dont want to take it to *that* level, it could very well be the entre to move up at a far lower cost than today --- simply because that entire 'second level' willbe by definition playing on a completely different money field than the 'uber p5' that could pop out.

No one can say that NCAA athletics / athletes are *not* on that trajectory currently.

I don't think there's any doubt where those schools are going to land. They've already made the conscious decision to invest and keep up. Even Northwestern has, with their $260MM+ facility. They're going to keep going where the money is and try to keep up, as long as the big boys want to have them at the table.

They may be losing money now, but they can also see what happens when a school (Rice) doesn't choose to keep up. None of them are going to choose that route and try to muddle along in a lesser state. They'll face the same complaints we hear about Rice's affiliations - lack of geographic commonality, no established rivalries, etc. I just don't see any of them choosing that. It might be forced on them, but no one is going to choose to weaken their overall brand and associations.

And if the stories we always hear are true, these uberconferences are going to need private schools to be members, to keep certain types of data private and away from FOIA-type requests.

(06-21-2018 07:01 AM)gsloth Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 09:54 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 07:06 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Before doing anything about the D1/D3 debate, the university needs to wait and see if there is a breakup within the P5.

The next round will end up with 4 megaconferences of 16 each with two divisions of 8. In football, 11 games in conference 7 in division and 4 cross division or perhaps more likely 2 cross division, then 1 or 3 out of conference. Playoff in conference. Winner gets autobids to 8 team playoffs with 4 wild cards.

Anybody not in the 64 will be in subconferences and there is always basketball if you can convince kids not to transfer up.

Makes too much sense even for this bunch of egomaniac idiots.

Rice's hope is to somehow land in a decent subconference. Alternatively, hope Trinity will allow us in their conference.

In the QA session in the Austin Coaches Caravan JK pretty much implied that was going to be the 'next thing'. It may be forced on the NCAA due to litigation in the 9th circuit as early as next year.

JK said that it could very well occur that the P5 will shatter into the "paid-for athletes / very big ticket for-business model / training leagues" groups and those that will shy away from jumping into that pool headfirst. Think of a cleave between the (UTexas / LSU / Florida / Michigan / Ohio State / Oklahoma / USC)-type bunch who will directly and unambiguously jump into that arena; and the (Tulane / Vanderbilt / Northwestern )-types that will naturally group into the 'not big business' model.

It would be interesting to see where Notre Dame, Penn State, TCUs fall when that split occur. And such a split could be a life jacket tossed to Rice.

There is NFW we ever go P5 'present day' with our sports revenues, funding, and tbh, Rice's 'mission' that results in the prototypical Rice student body. There is NFW for that route presently because we have to make up 50 years of 'costing wars' --- not gonna happen. So right now we are stuck in this 'how the hell do we make up ground in this?' dilenma.

But with that type of 'uber p5' / remnants who dont want to take it to *that* level, it could very well be the entre to move up at a far lower cost than today --- simply because that entire 'second level' willbe by definition playing on a completely different money field than the 'uber p5' that could pop out.

No one can say that NCAA athletics / athletes are *not* on that trajectory currently.

I don't think there's any doubt where those schools are going to land. They've already made the conscious decision to invest and keep up. Even Northwestern has, with their $260MM+ facility. They're going to keep going where the money is and try to keep up, as long as the big boys want to have them at the table.

They may be losing money now, but they can also see what happens when a school (Rice) doesn't choose to keep up. None of them are going to choose that route and try to muddle along in a lesser state. They'll face the same complaints we hear about Rice's affiliations - lack of geographic commonality, no established rivalries, etc. I just don't see any of them choosing that. It might be forced on them, but no one is going to choose to weaken their overall brand and associations.

And if the stories we always hear are true, these uberconferences are going to need private schools to be members, to keep certain types of data private and away from FOIA-type requests.

I’m pretty sure Stanford and NDs athletic directors have already said they will retain amateur status and not pay their players when the break happens. Who knows if they actually mean it.

I still think the best idea is for us to turn the stadium into a wifi hotspot with a ticket.... or perhaps as a small add-on like $2.99/game $10.99/season, free with Owl Club donation

Bring your tablet, stream from the stands, watch other games while you attend ours... charging stations (for a nominal fee) at the rail... maybe even buy a 'seat' there and sit your laptop on a 'bar' at the rail with 'in seat' service for $500+ donations or a per game fee. Get verizon or someone to sponsor the wifi

I mean seriously, this is what people do anyway right? They multi-task, especially social media or watching other games at the same time (and thus they don't attend)

Turn HRS into the largest sports bar

(06-21-2018 05:58 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  maybe we can get them streamimg the game at least. it's a start

The problem isn't the medium of content distribution (online, on TV, in person). the problem is the content itself. That's why building things like the Roost are baffling. No one is not attending a Rice game due to the old Roost.

The product is fundamentally deficient. And this ties back to revenue - as the gap grows, Rice takes on more water. The Patterson center would have been great 15 years ago. Now it's just another building just like a lot of other G5 schools (let alone P5 ones... have you seen Northwestern's indoor field?).

IIRC, the rice games on facebook live had 1000 viewers at any time. This was free and easily accessible. Convenient supply is abundantly present - the issue is no demand. so short of a massive cash infusion (on the order of tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars from the BOT), how does Rice make this a viable proposition?

Keeping with Airline analogies, putting an a380 with first class apartments on a route to Biloxi, Mississippi won't make any more people want to go there.

(06-21-2018 12:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I still think the best idea is for us to turn the stadium into a wifi hotspot with a ticket.... or perhaps as a small add-on like $2.99/game $10.99/season, free with Owl Club donation

Bring your tablet, stream from the stands, watch other games while you attend ours... charging stations (for a nominal fee) at the rail... maybe even buy a 'seat' there and sit your laptop on a 'bar' at the rail with 'in seat' service for $500+ donations or a per game fee. Get verizon or someone to sponsor the wifi

I mean seriously, this is what people do anyway right? They multi-task, especially social media or watching other games at the same time (and thus they don't attend)

Turn HRS into the largest sports bar

I like the idea, but people have to want to watch Rice in person for this to theoretically work. Otherwise they'll just go to an air conditioned sports bar, buy a beer and use the bar's wi-fi for cheaper.

(06-21-2018 12:58 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 12:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I still think the best idea is for us to turn the stadium into a wifi hotspot with a ticket.... or perhaps as a small add-on like $2.99/game $10.99/season, free with Owl Club donation

Bring your tablet, stream from the stands, watch other games while you attend ours... charging stations (for a nominal fee) at the rail... maybe even buy a 'seat' there and sit your laptop on a 'bar' at the rail with 'in seat' service for $500+ donations or a per game fee. Get verizon or someone to sponsor the wifi

I mean seriously, this is what people do anyway right? They multi-task, especially social media or watching other games at the same time (and thus they don't attend)

Turn HRS into the largest sports bar

I like the idea, but people have to want to watch Rice in person for this to theoretically work. Otherwise they'll just go to an air conditioned sports bar, buy a beer and use the bar's wi-fi for cheaper.

Agreed, but there is still something about a game-day experience that unless you're at a UT sportsbar watching UT, you won't get at a sportsbar

If I'm a Michigan or Alabama or FSU fan and going to be watching the game on TV anyway... we're trying to be the 'second choice' for these people. They may not want to go to a UT/A&M sports bar

Remember, we're not trying to get 50,000 of these people.... even just 5,000 would be a significant upgrade... and 5,000 people for 6 weekends out of a city of 3-5 million (depending on how you measure 'reach' is not a huge goal. It's also something that feeds on itself.

Lots of people in Texas attend high school games who have no affiliation to the schools... they just like live football

(06-21-2018 07:01 AM)gsloth Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 09:54 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 07:06 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Before doing anything about the D1/D3 debate, the university needs to wait and see if there is a breakup within the P5.

The next round will end up with 4 megaconferences of 16 each with two divisions of 8. In football, 11 games in conference 7 in division and 4 cross division or perhaps more likely 2 cross division, then 1 or 3 out of conference. Playoff in conference. Winner gets autobids to 8 team playoffs with 4 wild cards.

Anybody not in the 64 will be in subconferences and there is always basketball if you can convince kids not to transfer up.

Makes too much sense even for this bunch of egomaniac idiots.

Rice's hope is to somehow land in a decent subconference. Alternatively, hope Trinity will allow us in their conference.

In the QA session in the Austin Coaches Caravan JK pretty much implied that was going to be the 'next thing'. It may be forced on the NCAA due to litigation in the 9th circuit as early as next year.

JK said that it could very well occur that the P5 will shatter into the "paid-for athletes / very big ticket for-business model / training leagues" groups and those that will shy away from jumping into that pool headfirst. Think of a cleave between the (UTexas / LSU / Florida / Michigan / Ohio State / Oklahoma / USC)-type bunch who will directly and unambiguously jump into that arena; and the (Tulane / Vanderbilt / Northwestern )-types that will naturally group into the 'not big business' model.

It would be interesting to see where Notre Dame, Penn State, TCUs fall when that split occur. And such a split could be a life jacket tossed to Rice.

There is NFW we ever go P5 'present day' with our sports revenues, funding, and tbh, Rice's 'mission' that results in the prototypical Rice student body. There is NFW for that route presently because we have to make up 50 years of 'costing wars' --- not gonna happen. So right now we are stuck in this 'how the hell do we make up ground in this?' dilenma.

But with that type of 'uber p5' / remnants who dont want to take it to *that* level, it could very well be the entre to move up at a far lower cost than today --- simply because that entire 'second level' willbe by definition playing on a completely different money field than the 'uber p5' that could pop out.

No one can say that NCAA athletics / athletes are *not* on that trajectory currently.

I don't think there's any doubt where those schools are going to land. They've already made the conscious decision to invest and keep up. Even Northwestern has, with their $260MM+ facility. They're going to keep going where the money is and try to keep up, as long as the big boys want to have them at the table.

They may be losing money now, but they can also see what happens when a school (Rice) doesn't choose to keep up. None of them are going to choose that route and try to muddle along in a lesser state. They'll face the same complaints we hear about Rice's affiliations - lack of geographic commonality, no established rivalries, etc. I just don't see any of them choosing that. It might be forced on them, but no one is going to choose to weaken their overall brand and associations.

And if the stories we always hear are true, these uberconferences are going to need private schools to be members, to keep certain types of data private and away from FOIA-type requests.

There will be no way to hide school-level data if the school is a public university; that is where the real parsing will be.

What types of data exist at the Conference level that would be so embarrassing?

(06-21-2018 02:56 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 07:01 AM)gsloth Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 05:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 09:54 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 07:06 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Before doing anything about the D1/D3 debate, the university needs to wait and see if there is a breakup within the P5.

The next round will end up with 4 megaconferences of 16 each with two divisions of 8. In football, 11 games in conference 7 in division and 4 cross division or perhaps more likely 2 cross division, then 1 or 3 out of conference. Playoff in conference. Winner gets autobids to 8 team playoffs with 4 wild cards.
Anybody not in the 64 will be in subconferences and there is always basketball if you can convince kids not to transfer up.
Makes too much sense even for this bunch of egomaniac idiots.
Rice's hope is to somehow land in a decent subconference. Alternatively, hope Trinity will allow us in their conference.

In the QA session in the Austin Coaches Caravan JK pretty much implied that was going to be the 'next thing'. It may be forced on the NCAA due to litigation in the 9th circuit as early as next year.
JK said that it could very well occur that the P5 will shatter into the "paid-for athletes / very big ticket for-business model / training leagues" groups and those that will shy away from jumping into that pool headfirst. Think of a cleave between the (UTexas / LSU / Florida / Michigan / Ohio State / Oklahoma / USC)-type bunch who will directly and unambiguously jump into that arena; and the (Tulane / Vanderbilt / Northwestern )-types that will naturally group into the 'not big business' model.
It would be interesting to see where Notre Dame, Penn State, TCUs fall when that split occur. And such a split could be a life jacket tossed to Rice.
There is NFW we ever go P5 'present day' with our sports revenues, funding, and tbh, Rice's 'mission' that results in the prototypical Rice student body. There is NFW for that route presently because we have to make up 50 years of 'costing wars' --- not gonna happen. So right now we are stuck in this 'how the hell do we make up ground in this?'
But with that type of 'uber p5' / remnants who dont want to take it to *that* level, it could very well be the entre to move up at a far lower cost than today --- simply because that entire 'second level' willbe by definition playing on a completely different money field than the 'uber p5' that could pop out.
No one can say that NCAA athletics / athletes are *not* on that trajectory currently.

I don't think there's any doubt where those schools are going to land. They've already made the conscious decision to invest and keep up. Even Northwestern has, with their $260MM+ facility. They're going to keep going where the money is and try to keep up, as long as the big boys want to have them at the table.
They may be losing money now, but they can also see what happens when a school (Rice) doesn't choose to keep up. None of them are going to choose that route and try to muddle along in a lesser state. They'll face the same complaints we hear about Rice's affiliations - lack of geographic commonality, no established rivalries, etc. I just don't see any of them choosing that. It might be forced on them, but no one is going to choose to weaken their overall brand and associations.
And if the stories we always hear are true, these uberconferences are going to need private schools to be members, to keep certain types of data private and away from FOIA-type requests.

There will be no way to hide school-level data if the school is a public university; that is where the real parsing will be.
What types of data exist at the Conference level that would be so embarrassing?

Who can predict? But the major conferences have taken the position as a precaution. You’d be awfully disappointed if you set up a startup and two years later something happened that invalidated, say, your original choice of entity. There's no certainty that the move would work. But nobody wants to chance it.

(06-21-2018 02:56 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There will be no way to hide school-level data if the school is a public university; that is where the real parsing will be.

What types of data exist at the Conference level that would be so embarrassing?

iirc, the issues before were things like how much the conference pays for things.

I don't know if embarrassing is the right word, but financial things they'd often prefer not to be focused on.

It wouldn't be this, but perhaps similar to professors unhappy about coaches making so much... if conference admins made as much... or monies spent on defending conferences against anti-trust or player lawsuits or fighting title IX or whatever

(06-21-2018 03:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 02:56 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There will be no way to hide school-level data if the school is a public university; that is where the real parsing will be.
What types of data exist at the Conference level that would be so embarrassing?

iirc, the issues before were things like how much the conference pays for things.
I don't know if embarrassing is the right word, but financial things they'd often prefer not to be focused on.
It wouldn't be this, but perhaps similar to professors unhappy about coaches making so much... if conference admins made as much... or monies spent on defending conferences against anti-trust or player lawsuits or fighting title IX or whatever

I think one potential major issue could be sanctions and other discipline imposed at the conference level.

For a private entity, say, a conference, that typically wont fall under state FOIA laws. Even if the entire conference is in one state (say Texas) and all the members are state schools, the records of the conference are very much a private organization and not subject to Federal FOIA, nor would it be subject to the Texas version of FOIA. This obviously goes to the financials at the conference level.

I mean, I am pretty certain the Big 12 is not subject to Federal FOIA, and I am reasonably certain that it is not subject to the Texas Public Information Act, for example.

But, the underlying schools definitely cannot escape FOIA for their own individual parts. And, on top of it, lets assume the 11 public schools, one private school conference. You can discern much of the outgoing economic activity since the public has access to 11/12 of the counterparty financials.

I don't remember the specifics, Tanq... but I recall a pretty high level conversation where this was an advantage we were 'selling', I think when the SWC broke up and they took Baylor instead