(06-08-2018 09:04 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:58 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:54 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:51 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:46 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  And remember, the 2018 and 2019 class lost 2 huge commits last year. Ty Madden flipped to Texas and Josh Rivera flipped to Florida. Both flipped in large part because of the lack of a plan for Graham heading into last year. Both of those kids are incredible talents.

We not only lost two recruits due to the uncertainty, but we lost two coaches. Yet, for some inexplicable reason, many on this message board and some of the university's biggest donors were defending the way JK handled Wayne's contract situation.

I think “many on this message board” defended the contract decision due to declining performance and some indications of stubbornness on the side of Coach Graham.

“Many on this message board” also expected a competent coaching search that did not waste time interviewing fishing guides.

And for the umpteenth time-- it was not the eventual contract decision (e.g., whether or not it was time to transition) that was boggled, but rather the way it way woefully mishandled from last Summer onward. Yet many people, including yourself, were defending it; putting the blame on The OG instead.

Not to play tit for tat here but I would comment that for much of this spring you were advocating for one more year in 2019 so I’m not exactly sure that you were initially at peace with the eventual contract decision.

Either way, I think we both agree that whatever has happened May 1 onward has been an utter debacle so let’s leave it at that.

I would have been at peace had the decision been made before the season started. And I was the one advocating for the hiring of a coach in waiting to fill the assistant coach vacancy last summer.

This is simply a truly tragic situation.

I'll say it again --- any athlete that would give up a starting position at Rice University in order to transfer to a CC or JC simply had no business being here in the first place. If this is the caliber of student we need to go get in order to be competitive in D1, then we probably need to forget it.

Or if that's a bit harsh, then why the heck are male athletes apparently so miserable at Rice?
Do they simply hate to actually have to study?
Is it a red/blue thing, with athletes all coming from red Texas suburbs, and the rest of the diverse, international student body all blue?
Is it the empty seats?

(06-08-2018 10:11 PM)Barney Wrote:  Or if that's a bit harsh, then why the heck are male athletes apparently so miserable at Rice?
Do they simply hate to actually have to study?
Is it a red/blue thing, with athletes all coming from red Texas suburbs, and the rest of the diverse, international student body all blue?
Is it the empty seats?

The empty seats certainly don’t help. Especially when you see so many other programs with big crowds and a clear collegiate atmosphere. Our games the last couple years are smaller crowds than most of the high school games I attend....and much less exciting.

(06-08-2018 07:49 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  There's no question the uncertainty over Wayne's contract situation has taken a toll on recruiting

You know what else took a toll on recruiting? Having a head coach that didn’t even bother to recruit people in the last five plus years.

(06-08-2018 09:58 PM)Barney Wrote:  I'll say it again --- any athlete that would give up a starting position at Rice University in order to transfer to a CC or JC simply had no business being here in the first place. If this is the caliber of student we need to go get in order to be competitive in D1, then we probably need to forget it.

The rules for the amateur draft, the quality of play at the JC level (not overall, but certainly enough for pros to evaluate talent) the willingness of baseball to pay for educations, the partial scholarships etc etc etc ALL play important parts.....

(06-08-2018 10:11 PM)Barney Wrote:  Or if that's a bit harsh, then why the heck are male athletes apparently so miserable at Rice?
Do they simply hate to actually have to study?
Is it a red/blue thing, with athletes all coming from red Texas suburbs, and the rest of the diverse, international student body all blue?
Is it the empty seats?

I'll give you a bunch of reasons why most male athletes (especially in revenue sports) don't like the Rice experience... Others can add or subtract from this as they see fit:

1) They don't like the school work. Though they are smarter than your average FBS athlete, most are still in the bottom 15% of Rice when it comes to test scores and other universal metrics. Rice is hard for most normal students, so think of what it must be like if you are already behind the curve. Yes, there are easier majors available. But even those aren't "easy." For example, sports management has lots of required internships that suck up time. The humanities majors might not be quantitatively challenging, but require lots of reading and quite honestly, not many athletes are interested in them. Lots of guys used to be able to scratch it out through economics if they had to... Not so anymore after they upped the math reqs.

2) Our academic support is not commensurate with the difficulty of the school. All of the tutoring athletes receive is from students getting paid $10-12/hr. At many P5 schools, there are full-time tutors whose JOB is to help athletes with their school work. At Rice, our full-time academic support staff is there to help plan schedules, work through grading disputes, put out fires with professors, etc. While the way Rice does it is probably more "morally" correct, it certainly isn't easier on the athletes.

3) Our social life isn't on par with other schools, at least in the way most athletes want. There is no greek life where being a football, basketball, or baseball player gets you automatic entrance into whatever party you want) It's not just greek life though... It's a pain (though not impossible) to get into bars when you're under 21 unlike some college towns and even if you do get into them, they're packed with 22-28 y/o young professionals not hundreds of 18-20 y/o's with a 60/40 female-male ratio.

4) Few fans come to their games. I've been to almost every C-USA venue and lots and lots of P5 venues and almost all of them beat Rice. We're ahead of FIU and about tied with FAU. That's it. This is especially a problem in basketball where the emptiness of Tudor is especially noticeable.

5) Facilities lag other schools. The Patterson center is nice but we still lag lots of schools. Is there a free nutrition/snack bar open 24/7 for athletes? Nope, but there is at Texas Tech (a "low-end" P5). Do we have an indoor practice facility? Nope, we have access to the Texans' on their terms but a team still has to load up onto a bus for that. Can you punt or kick a football on our practice field without it possibly ending up on city streets? Nope. Do our locker rooms (for any sport) have digital displays? Nope.

6) Can family watch a game on TV without having to reinvent the wheel? TBD... The ESPN3/+ is a promising development but still annoying that you'll have to pay $5/month extra.

7) Does it feel like the administration cares about athletes? The Harvey car flooding (whether you think the university should've paid for damages or not, it was not handled with haste and compassion), the stipend checks coming late, the parking office giving tickets (this isn't limited to athletes granted, but they do like to park on the loop), assistant coaches jumping at the first chance to leave because salaries aren't high enough...

(06-08-2018 08:46 PM)interwebowl Wrote:  I would not play for Rice Baseball with JK as my athletic director.

If you were reading all of these Parliament threads, and talking to Wayne Graham and his wife, would you take the head coaching job here if you had other career options?

(06-08-2018 11:46 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 10:11 PM)Barney Wrote:  Or if that's a bit harsh, then why the heck are male athletes apparently so miserable at Rice?
Do they simply hate to actually have to study?
Is it a red/blue thing, with athletes all coming from red Texas suburbs, and the rest of the diverse, international student body all blue?
Is it the empty seats?

I'll give you a bunch of reasons why most male athletes (especially in revenue sports) don't like the Rice experience... Others can add or subtract from this as they see fit:

1) They don't like the school work. Though they are smarter than your average FBS athlete, most are still in the bottom 15% of Rice when it comes to test scores and other universal metrics. Rice is hard for most normal students, so think of what it must be like if you are already behind the curve. Yes, there are easier majors available. But even those aren't "easy." For example, sports management has lots of required internships that suck up time. The humanities majors might not be quantitatively challenging, but require lots of reading and quite honestly, not many athletes are interested in them. Lots of guys used to be able to scratch it out through economics if they had to... Not so anymore after they upped the math reqs.

2) Our academic support is not commensurate with the difficulty of the school. All of the tutoring athletes receive is from students getting paid $10-12/hr. At many P5 schools, there are full-time tutors whose JOB is to help athletes with their school work. At Rice, our full-time academic support staff is there to help plan schedules, work through grading disputes, put out fires with professors, etc. While the way Rice does it is probably more "morally" correct, it certainly isn't easier on the athletes.

3) Our social life isn't on par with other schools, at least in the way most athletes want. There is no greek life where being a football, basketball, or baseball player gets you automatic entrance into whatever party you want) It's not just greek life though... It's a pain (though not impossible) to get into bars when you're under 21 unlike some college towns and even if you do get into them, they're packed with 22-28 y/o young professionals not hundreds of 18-20 y/o's with a 60/40 female-male ratio.

4) Few fans come to their games. I've been to almost every C-USA venue and lots and lots of P5 venues and almost all of them beat Rice. We're ahead of FIU and about tied with FAU. That's it. This is especially a problem in basketball where the emptiness of Tudor is especially noticeable.

5) Facilities lag other schools. The Patterson center is nice but we still lag lots of schools. Is there a free nutrition/snack bar open 24/7 for athletes? Nope, but there is at Texas Tech (a "low-end" P5). Do we have an indoor practice facility? Nope, we have access to the Texans' on their terms but a team still has to load up onto a bus for that. Can you punt or kick a football on our practice field without it possibly ending up on city streets? Nope. Do our locker rooms (for any sport) have digital displays? Nope.

6) Can family watch a game on TV without having to reinvent the wheel? TBD... The ESPN3/+ is a promising development but still annoying that you'll have to pay $5/month extra.

7) Does it feel like the administration cares about athletes? The Harvey car flooding (whether you think the university should've paid for damages or not, it was not handled with haste and compassion), the stipend checks coming late, the parking office giving tickets (this isn't limited to athletes granted, but they do like to park on the loop), assistant coaches jumping at the first chance to leave because salaries aren't high enough...

why does rice play texas?

yeah it's tough but i hope it build for a better future. I'm happy to tell people how hard rice is, compared to that cheating scandal at UNC.

Really hoping Karlgaard proves me wrong with a great hire. He already lowered the expectations to a point any hire may be a good one. Genius. Must have read trump's "art of a deal" (joke please don't think im pitching trump here)

(06-08-2018 09:58 PM)Barney Wrote:  I'll say it again --- any athlete that would give up a starting position at Rice University in order to transfer to a CC or JC simply had no business being here in the first place. If this is the caliber of student we need to go get in order to be competitive in D1, then we probably need to forget it.

Baseball is different than other sports in this regard... players hoping to get drafted typically spend three years in college. To transfer to another D1 school, they would need to sit out a year, or they could play JUCO as a sophomore, then D1 as a junior without sitting out.

All the JUCO transfer means is that he wants to transfer to another D1 school...

(06-09-2018 09:54 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 09:58 PM)Barney Wrote:  I'll say it again --- any athlete that would give up a starting position at Rice University in order to transfer to a CC or JC simply had no business being here in the first place. If this is the caliber of student we need to go get in order to be competitive in D1, then we probably need to forget it.

Baseball is different than other sports in this regard... players hoping to get drafted typically spend three years in college. To transfer to another D1 school, they would need to sit out a year, or they could play JUCO as a sophomore, then D1 as a junior without sitting out.

All the JUCO transfer means is that he wants to transfer to another D1 school...

Or he thinks he can get drafted next year instead of waiting until the year after.

(06-08-2018 11:46 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 10:11 PM)Barney Wrote:  Or if that's a bit harsh, then why the heck are male athletes apparently so miserable at Rice?
Do they simply hate to actually have to study?
Is it a red/blue thing, with athletes all coming from red Texas suburbs, and the rest of the diverse, international student body all blue?
Is it the empty seats?

I'll give you a bunch of reasons why most male athletes (especially in revenue sports) don't like the Rice experience... Others can add or subtract from this as they see fit:

1) They don't like the school work. Though they are smarter than your average FBS athlete, most are still in the bottom 15% of Rice when it comes to test scores and other universal metrics. Rice is hard for most normal students, so think of what it must be like if you are already behind the curve. Yes, there are easier majors available. But even those aren't "easy." For example, sports management has lots of required internships that suck up time. The humanities majors might not be quantitatively challenging, but require lots of reading and quite honestly, not many athletes are interested in them. Lots of guys used to be able to scratch it out through economics if they had to... Not so anymore after they upped the math reqs.

2) Our academic support is not commensurate with the difficulty of the school. All of the tutoring athletes receive is from students getting paid $10-12/hr. At many P5 schools, there are full-time tutors whose JOB is to help athletes with their school work. At Rice, our full-time academic support staff is there to help plan schedules, work through grading disputes, put out fires with professors, etc. While the way Rice does it is probably more "morally" correct, it certainly isn't easier on the athletes.

3) Our social life isn't on par with other schools, at least in the way most athletes want. There is no greek life where being a football, basketball, or baseball player gets you automatic entrance into whatever party you want) It's not just greek life though... It's a pain (though not impossible) to get into bars when you're under 21 unlike some college towns and even if you do get into them, they're packed with 22-28 y/o young professionals not hundreds of 18-20 y/o's with a 60/40 female-male ratio.

4) Few fans come to their games. I've been to almost every C-USA venue and lots and lots of P5 venues and almost all of them beat Rice. We're ahead of FIU and about tied with FAU. That's it. This is especially a problem in basketball where the emptiness of Tudor is especially noticeable.

5) Facilities lag other schools. The Patterson center is nice but we still lag lots of schools. Is there a free nutrition/snack bar open 24/7 for athletes? Nope, but there is at Texas Tech (a "low-end" P5). Do we have an indoor practice facility? Nope, we have access to the Texans' on their terms but a team still has to load up onto a bus for that. Can you punt or kick a football on our practice field without it possibly ending up on city streets? Nope. Do our locker rooms (for any sport) have digital displays? Nope.

6) Can family watch a game on TV without having to reinvent the wheel? TBD... The ESPN3/+ is a promising development but still annoying that you'll have to pay $5/month extra.

7) Does it feel like the administration cares about athletes? The Harvey car flooding (whether you think the university should've paid for damages or not, it was not handled with haste and compassion), the stipend checks coming late, the parking office giving tickets (this isn't limited to athletes granted, but they do like to park on the loop), assistant coaches jumping at the first chance to leave because salaries aren't high enough...

YOU ARE SPOT ON WITH ALL

(06-08-2018 08:59 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:54 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:51 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(06-08-2018 08:46 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  And remember, the 2018 and 2019 class lost 2 huge commits last year. Ty Madden flipped to Texas and Josh Rivera flipped to Florida. Both flipped in large part because of the lack of a plan for Graham heading into last year. Both of those kids are incredible talents.

We not only lost two recruits due to the uncertainty, but we lost two coaches. Yet, for some inexplicable reason, many on this message board and some of the university's biggest donors were defending the way JK handled Wayne's contract situation.

I think “many on this message board” defended the contract decision due to declining performance and some indications of stubbornness on the side of Coach Graham.

“Many on this message board” also expected a competent coaching search that did not waste time interviewing fishing guides.

I agree with both of you. The fact that JK actually spent time interviewing Norm Charlton, fresh off a fishing boat, it’s something out of a B-movie. Norm even said he didn’t want to spend his time grinding out recruiting etc. WTF did he even waste his time driving up from Rockport for???

Like him or not, valid concerns or not, Lance WANTS THE JOB. Give it to him and let’s go! At this point, it CANNOT get worse. And hiring Lance would at least secure the commits we have currently...that’s for sure.

I have no inside knowledge whatsoever but what seems highly likely in my eyes at this point is that Saarloos (possibly with Lance as assistant) was Plan A and he basically strung us along and then left us at the altar. So that's on Saarloos, not JK. Then Lance as HC was Plan B but Leebron has vetoed him. I mean, that just seems almost a matter of res ipsa loquitur at this point, because otherwise that deal pretty obviously could and would have been consummated in about two seconds after Saarloos turned us down. I have my criticisms of JK but I highly suspect Leebron's involvement in this debacle as well.

leebron probably doesnt want a greg shiano issue, which is his job (and AD). Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded. I think that would make people give him a chance, MAYBE...at least if there is still protest - it shows that they are looking for more conflict rather than a solution. If he is stubborn and will stick to his beliefs...it probably isn't good/in the best interest for the university to employ that type of character.

If he is a good coach, that's a whole other issue.

(06-09-2018 01:27 PM)critten Wrote:  leebron probably doesnt want a greg shiano issue, which is his job (and AD). Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded. I think that would make people give him a chance, MAYBE...at least if there is still protest - it shows that they are looking for more conflict rather than a solution. If he is stubborn and will stick to his beliefs...it probably isn't good/in the best interest for the university to employ that type of character.

If he is a good coach, that's a whole other issue.

So Lance should apologize for expressing opinions that are unacceptable to an intolerant minority. Hmmmm. Voluntarily go to a re-education camp. Hmmm. Sounds like we have a somewhat enlightened Pol Pot. You are not forced to the re-education camps, at least not yet.

(06-09-2018 01:27 PM)critten Wrote:  leebron probably doesnt want a greg shiano issue, which is his job (and AD). Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded. I think that would make people give him a chance, MAYBE...at least if there is still protest - it shows that they are looking for more conflict rather than a solution. If he is stubborn and will stick to his beliefs...it probably isn't good/in the best interest for the university to employ that type of character.

If he is a good coach, that's a whole other issue.

Lol. “If he sticks to his beliefs” we shouldn’t employ that type of character.

WTF?

Do you understand how that sounds?

(06-09-2018 01:27 PM)critten Wrote:  Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded.

Maybe we could send him to a re-education camp, where he could learn to open minded in the proper way.

(06-09-2018 01:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-09-2018 01:27 PM)critten Wrote:  Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded.

Maybe we could send him to a re-education camp, where he could learn to open minded in the proper way.

Maybe Rice could just announce he's the basbeall coach and move on.

Not sure how this tangent got into the "Dane Acker....transfer?" thread. There is a separate thread for this tangent. I suggest the related posts get moved.

(06-09-2018 01:27 PM)critten Wrote:  Berkman's best play would be to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded.

I am generally supportive of LBGT rights, and have a number of friends who are included in that number. They are all over the place on the bathroom issue, and most of my lesbian friends would agree with Lance--they don't want men in their bathrooms. But where we have some differences is that sometimes they want to consider ONLY the rights of the LBGT person and not the rights of anyone else.

If a trans person has a right to pee and poo somewhere, then he or she has that right. If the issue is doing it where they feel "comfortable" then we have rights in conflict--their right to be comfortable plus the rights of others to be comfortable. Whose rights count more and why?

Maybe you're the one who needs to apologize, ask for education, and show willingness to be open minded.