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Around the league 2018-2019
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kmdhoya Offline
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Post: #441
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
NCAA tournament:
Villanova
Marquette
Seton Hall
St. John's

NIT:
Creighton
Georgetown
Xavier
Providence
Butler

CBI:
Depaul
03-17-2019 09:57 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #442
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
I am glad that DePaul took a CBI invite. They could definitely utilize the extra games to create more momentum heading into next year. It's also a good look for the league to have all ten programs playing in postseason tournaments.
03-18-2019 10:08 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #443
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-18-2019 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I am glad that DePaul took a CBI invite. They could definitely utilize the extra games to create more momentum heading into next year. It's also a good look for the league to have all ten programs playing in postseason tournaments.

totally agree. Also like that you have Big East, Big 12, and AAC teams in there. Think there's space for a 3rd minor tournament quite frankly.

Would have been really interesting to see that field had there not been 3-4 bid thieves this week. Looking the first 3 teams bumped would have been Wichita, San Diego, and Toledo(all 6 seeds). If a 4th it'd be between Dayton, Butler, and Arkansas.
03-18-2019 10:35 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #444
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
I think it's so comical how some Big East fans are so locked into the round robin like it's the most important thing in the world..... Especially the newcomers fans.
03-20-2019 10:13 AM
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MUAvalanche Offline
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Post: #445
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-20-2019 10:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it's so comical how some Big East fans are so locked into the round robin like it's the most important thing in the world..... Especially the newcomers fans.

I don't think most would be locked in if something better came along. If the choices are:

1. Round Robin
2. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of SLU/Dayton/VCU/Davidson
3. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of ND/Cuse/Gonzaga/???
4. Get rid of round robin to bring in UConn and TBD

I think the choices would be 3-1-4-2, although for some it could be 3-4-1-2. No need to abandon the current ship unless the teams joining create unbelievable value. Be flexible, but smart about it. This year does not make me panic about the current direction of the conference. There are ebbs and flows. We went from 9 schools trying to be competitive to 10 for a year, which may have cost the conference one bid, and maybe 1-2 seed lines for a couple of teams. This in a year where most of the conference was young. Need a couple more years of data unless a whale becomes available. Don't change for minnows.
03-21-2019 12:26 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #446
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-21-2019 12:26 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 10:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it's so comical how some Big East fans are so locked into the round robin like it's the most important thing in the world..... Especially the newcomers fans.

I don't think most would be locked in if something better came along. If the choices are:

1. Round Robin
2. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of SLU/Dayton/VCU/Davidson
3. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of ND/Cuse/Gonzaga/???
4. Get rid of round robin to bring in UConn and TBD

I think the choices would be 3-1-4-2, although for some it could be 3-4-1-2. No need to abandon the current ship unless the teams joining create unbelievable value. Be flexible, but smart about it. This year does not make me panic about the current direction of the conference. There are ebbs and flows. We went from 9 schools trying to be competitive to 10 for a year, which may have cost the conference one bid, and maybe 1-2 seed lines for a couple of teams. This in a year where most of the conference was young. Need a couple more years of data unless a whale becomes available. Don't change for minnows.

The problem I have with this analysis is that the top 2 teams were really down as well...
If you look at 1/2/8/9/10 teams. So looking at wins available to the middle class...
2019- 46
2018- 42
2017- 41
2016- 41
2015- 42
2014- 43

The 2 years that this number was the highest- 2014/2019- the league barely gets 4 bids.

The league really got lucky this year quite frankly that Marquette and Nova stumbled, or 4 bids would have been impossible. St John's doesn't get in without 1 of their 3 wins over them, and Seton Hall doesn't get in without 2 of their 3 wins over them.

And yes, I do think some Big East fans, particularly like I said fans from Xavier, Creighton, and Butler- are 100% locked into the round robin and act like it must be saved at all costs.
03-21-2019 12:51 PM
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MUAvalanche Offline
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Post: #447
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-21-2019 12:51 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-21-2019 12:26 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 10:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it's so comical how some Big East fans are so locked into the round robin like it's the most important thing in the world..... Especially the newcomers fans.

I don't think most would be locked in if something better came along. If the choices are:

1. Round Robin
2. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of SLU/Dayton/VCU/Davidson
3. Get rid of round robin to bring in some collection of ND/Cuse/Gonzaga/???
4. Get rid of round robin to bring in UConn and TBD

I think the choices would be 3-1-4-2, although for some it could be 3-4-1-2. No need to abandon the current ship unless the teams joining create unbelievable value. Be flexible, but smart about it. This year does not make me panic about the current direction of the conference. There are ebbs and flows. We went from 9 schools trying to be competitive to 10 for a year, which may have cost the conference one bid, and maybe 1-2 seed lines for a couple of teams. This in a year where most of the conference was young. Need a couple more years of data unless a whale becomes available. Don't change for minnows.

The problem I have with this analysis is that the top 2 teams were really down as well...
If you look at 1/2/8/9/10 teams. So looking at wins available to the middle class...
2019- 46
2018- 42
2017- 41
2016- 41
2015- 42
2014- 43

The 2 years that this number was the highest- 2014/2019- the league barely gets 4 bids.

The league really got lucky this year quite frankly that Marquette and Nova stumbled, or 4 bids would have been impossible. St John's doesn't get in without 1 of their 3 wins over them, and Seton Hall doesn't get in without 2 of their 3 wins over them.

And yes, I do think some Big East fans, particularly like I said fans from Xavier, Creighton, and Butler- are 100% locked into the round robin and act like it must be saved at all costs.

I used the term "most" and you used the term "some" in your last post, so we are not really arguing. We are never going to see uniformity on any issue. And I agreed that with a middle class of 8 this year, it created bid problems, so our analysis wasn't leading to a different conclusion. DePaul's improvement led to fewer bids. The issue we are disagreeing on is when to pull the trigger. You seem to want to pull it now solely for tournament reasons. I don't see any schools of value available, and I look at the Big East as a long term proposition, so I am willing to wait for a school to differentiate itself and be a reason for inclusion. If you look closely, we are not that far apart.
03-21-2019 12:59 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #448
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
It's going to be really interesting these next 3-4 years. I think if the league has another 2-3 years similar to this year- I think there would be a lot of pressure to expand prior to the TV deal coming up for negotiation in about 5 years time from now.
03-21-2019 01:04 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #449
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
Well, there is a compromise available. The league could still expand while keeping the round robin format (by going to eleven members). From the league's perspective (and not necessarily the fans'), I think the round robin is a current and valuable benefit that is by no means irreplaceable. The round robin has provided tangible value to the Big East by allowing Butler, Creighton and Xavier to become fully assimilated under the conference brand by having home/home matchups with each of the C7. With their success on the court, it is allowed the Big East to have three strong additions, along with the C7.

Now, in 2019, one could argue that this value has potentially run its course. This year, with the parity and cannibalism that the Big East endured, one could argue that now - at this point - does the round robin provide more harm than good? I would say we need at least one more year of data to get enough information to see how it all comes out. However, going back to that compromise - keeping the round robin, but still expanding by one - adding a single school not only increases the likelihood of bids, but it still allows to keep the round robin in the near-term to allow that single addition to acclimate along the same lines that Butler, Creighton and Xavier all have.
03-21-2019 01:49 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #450
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-21-2019 01:04 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's going to be really interesting these next 3-4 years. I think if the league has another 2-3 years similar to this year- I think there would be a lot of pressure to expand prior to the TV deal coming up for negotiation in about 5 years time from now.

The way I personally view expansion is that the Big East should be proactive and expand sooner - in a decision of growth and development - rather than wait and appear desperate and worried.

You and I both disagree on SLU, but I will just use them as an example: Yes, SLU does not bring the same history as Butler/Creighton/Xavier had; however, the sooner you can bring them in under the Big East banner, and get them the resources we all currently employ, the sooner the can invest more in themselves and provide value as a peer member to the conference membership. To be clear, they would not be expected to be a Villanova-type program; however, if they can compete for tournament bids every few years (like they have) and provide strong depth for the conference, then the league ultimately wins.

If there are no perfect fits for expansion for the Big East, then the league leadership should be looking at who are the best institutional fits, and which of those basketball programs could immensely benefit from the league's resources and playing under the Big East banner. I just think that SLU checks nearly all of those boxes (and another A10 Championship only advances their candidacy, IMO).
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2019 02:02 PM by GoldenWarrior11.)
03-21-2019 02:01 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #451
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-21-2019 01:49 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Well, there is a compromise available. The league could still expand while keeping the round robin format (by going to eleven members). From the league's perspective (and not necessarily the fans'), I think the round robin is a current and valuable benefit that is by no means irreplaceable. The round robin has provided tangible value to the Big East by allowing Butler, Creighton and Xavier to become fully assimilated under the conference brand by having home/home matchups with each of the C7. With their success on the court, it is allowed the Big East to have three strong additions, along with the C7.

Now, in 2019, one could argue that this value has potentially run its course. This year, with the parity and cannibalism that the Big East endured, one could argue that now - at this point - does the round robin provide more harm than good? I would say we need at least one more year of data to get enough information to see how it all comes out. However, going back to that compromise - keeping the round robin, but still expanding by one - adding a single school not only increases the likelihood of bids, but it still allows to keep the round robin in the near-term to allow that single addition to acclimate along the same lines that Butler, Creighton and Xavier all have.

Going to 20 though by no means guarantees more bids.. I mean look at the Big Ten.... You can not tell me that if they had only 18 conference games, that Indiana and Nebaska aren't tourney teams right now.... The games that are getting replaced OOC are dreg games. Teams are still playing the conference challenges, the exempt tournaments, and the tougher OOC games. You say the Big Ten got their most bids ever. While true, it's disingenuous. It's the first time with 14 teams that they were anything better than a top 4 conference.

Take St John's this year. They would replace 2 of their cupcake OOC games with say 2 games against SLU. If they lose 1 of those 2 games, they are NIT, even with the tougher OOC.

Until the committee starts taking teams with less than 4 games over .500(they've taken 1 in 26 years), this 20 conference game thing is utterly meaningless.... That's the thing folks who are clamoring for 20 conference games want to totally sweep under the rug. Your overall record does matter to the committee.
03-21-2019 02:06 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #452
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-21-2019 02:01 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-21-2019 01:04 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's going to be really interesting these next 3-4 years. I think if the league has another 2-3 years similar to this year- I think there would be a lot of pressure to expand prior to the TV deal coming up for negotiation in about 5 years time from now.

The way I personally view expansion is that the Big East should be proactive and expand sooner - in a decision of growth and development - rather than wait and appear desperate and worried.

You and I both disagree on SLU, but I will just use them as an example: Yes, SLU does not bring the same history as Butler/Creighton/Xavier had; however, the sooner you can bring them in under the Big East banner, and get them the resources we all currently employ, the sooner the can invest more in themselves and provide value as a peer member to the conference membership. To be clear, they would not be expected to be a Villanova-type program; however, if they can compete for tournament bids every few years (like they have) and provide strong depth for the conference, then the league ultimately wins.

If there are no perfect fits for expansion for the Big East, then the league leadership should be looking at who are the best institutional fits, and which of those basketball programs could immensely benefit from the league's resources and playing under the Big East banner. I just think that SLU checks nearly all of those boxes (and another A10 Championship only advances their candidacy, IMO).

The problem for SLU is that it's really a 1 off situation. 4 of their 7 guys that played in the title game are seniors. If they go back to being a bad team next year, how does it help them? Also, if Ford leaves, then what?
03-21-2019 02:13 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #453
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
For all of the ridicule Creighton gets on here from Shocker, it's only fitting they end Memphis' season.
03-23-2019 11:03 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #454
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-23-2019 11:03 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  For all of the ridicule Creighton gets on here from Shocker, it's only fitting they end Memphis' season.

what would be funny as anything is Creighton vs Wichita in the NIT Title game. I think that would be something Creighton and Wichita fans would both agree with!!! lol
03-23-2019 11:46 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #455
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
(03-23-2019 11:46 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-23-2019 11:03 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  For all of the ridicule Creighton gets on here from Shocker, it's only fitting they end Memphis' season.

what would be funny as anything is Creighton vs Wichita in the NIT Title game. I think that would be something Creighton and Wichita fans would both agree with!!! lol

Well, Wichita is now 1 game away from the NIT finals. Can Creighton beat TCU tonight to themselves get 1 win away from the NIT finals?
03-26-2019 08:46 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #456
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
One thing the league needs to be better next year is on the road....

right now the league is 42-72. Road teams went 35-55 in Big East play plus 1-1 vs St John's at the BET. So Big East teams playing teams on the road outside the Big East went a woeful 6-16 and would be 6-17 if Creighton loses tonight.
03-26-2019 09:24 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #457
RE: Around the league 2018-2019
sounds like Powell is looking really good at the combines.... Really wouldn't be a shocker at all if he turns pro.
05-14-2019 12:58 PM
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