Climate change comes and goes based upon isothermic weather cycles brought upon by solar flare activity. In other words, the universe does what it does.
Even the National Geographic alarmists admitted that those who knew the most were as likely to be members of the climate change cult as they were to be skeptics.
(06-03-2018 06:23 PM)Kronke Wrote: Everything the left does or is involved in is a scam.
Some *ahem* called this from day -20 yrs ago.
The big blue marble is constantly changing, always has been, and we know less about where we live than we do about the moon.
I’ve spent time in the ocean basin that is uhhhhh, West Texas? Alpine, Marathon, Sul Ross? And that’s “young” in relative terms.
These new age clods like albore and his hysterical daughter, or the idiot actors and actresses that play other people on tv and read other people’s work so they can fuel their private jets...
Yea, well.
Go outside. Do some actual yard work. Look around for a change instead of just telling your driver where to take you to the next Pinot and tiny sandwiches get together.
More useful idiots. Amazing
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2018 10:24 PM by JMUDunk.)
(06-03-2018 09:39 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote: This board is full of lunatics.
The only accurate response to this thread thus far. Especially because the article is over 5 years old and the OP probably has no idea of that fact.
ETA - BTW if you want to see what has happened in the world since this article came out, you can click on this link. The 4 hottest years on record have happened since 2013. Maybe it's time for a new study?
(06-03-2018 09:39 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote: This board is full of lunatics.
The only accurate response to this thread thus far. Especially because the article is over 5 years old and the OP probably has no idea of that fact.
ETA - BTW if you want to see what has happened in the world since this article came out, you can click on this link. The 4 hottest years on record have happened since 2013. Maybe it's time for a new study?
(06-03-2018 06:23 PM)Kronke Wrote: Everything the left does or is involved in is a scam.
Some *ahem* called this from day -20 yrs ago.
The big blue marble is constantly changing, always has been, and we know less about where we live than we do about the moon.
I’ve spent time in the ocean basin that is uhhhhh, West Texas? Alpine, Marathon, Sul Ross? And that’s “young” in relative terms.
These new age clods like albore and his hysterical daughter, or the idiot actors and actresses that play other people on tv and read other people’s work so they can fuel their private jets...
Yea, well.
Go outside. Do some actual yard work. Look around for a change instead of just telling your driver where to take you to the next Pinot and tiny sandwiches get together.
More useful idiots. Amazing
Alpine? I visted there once but all I got was one of these.
(06-03-2018 09:39 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote: This board is full of lunatics.
The only accurate response to this thread thus far. Especially because the article is over 5 years old and the OP probably has no idea of that fact.
ETA - BTW if you want to see what has happened in the world since this article came out, you can click on this link. The 4 hottest years on record have happened since 2013. Maybe it's time for a new study?
Here's the money quote, for those who don't, you know, read:
To address this, we reconstruct the frames of one group of experts who have not received much attention in previous research and yet play a central role in understanding industry responses – professional experts in petroleum and related industries.
Yeah, that's what it says: It's a survey of oil company employees.
Probably a good place to quote Upton Sinclair:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
An opinion piece from 2013 is not the smoking gun you're looking for.
Look, for my entire life there have been climate alarmists, first warning of a coming ice age, then saying Miami would be underwater by 2020. Clearly, all off base. But I also don't get the anti-climate changers... there's no harm in trying to reduce the impact we have.
1) The climate IS changing. It's constantly changing. It's changed numerous times over the 4.5 billion years the Earth has been around. It will continue to change. That's not really the question. The question is #2.
2) Is the changing climate a result of HUMAN BEHAVIOR. If you look at the issue with logic, you'll realize the changes the climate makes/has made over the years from warming to ice ages had NOTHING to do with the SUV, running your A/C, or burning coal. Knowing this, it is the height or arrogance to think that humans can do anything about something that's been happening on a regular basis for 4.5 billion years.
The global/climate/warming/change crowd is guilty of the same thing they claim the petroleum companies are, MONEY. If it's proved that humans have NOTHING to do with the "change", they stand to lose, what, BILLIONS of dollars in "research" grants and investments. How many people who've invested heavily in "green" energy would lose their backsides if their forced regulations and markets dried up? The enviro-nuts always say follow the money. I say right back at ya.
(06-04-2018 07:28 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote: There's actually two separate issues.
1) The climate IS changing. It's constantly changing. It's changed numerous times over the 4.5 billion years the Earth has been around. It will continue to change. That's not really the question. The question is #2.
2) Is the changing climate a result of HUMAN BEHAVIOR. If you look at the issue with logic, you'll realize the changes the climate makes/has made over the years from warming to ice ages had NOTHING to do with the SUV, running your A/C, or burning coal. Knowing this, it is the height or arrogance to think that humans can do anything about something that's been happening on a regular basis for 4.5 billion years.
The global/climate/warming/change crowd is guilty of the same thing they claim the petroleum companies are, MONEY. If it's proved that humans have NOTHING to do with the "change", they stand to lose, what, BILLIONS of dollars in "research" grants and investments. How many people who've invested heavily in "green" energy would lose their backsides if their forced regulations and markets dried up? The enviro-nuts always say follow the money. I say right back at ya.
There's also a #3 and #4l, and a corollary #5:
3) Human behavior can change sufficiently to have a material impact.
4) If the trend is not reversed by human behavior, the impact will be catastrophic.
5) Therefore, we must take drastic action immediately, regardless of consequences.
I agree with your analysis of 1 and 2. Climate is changing, but the extent to which humans are responsible is unclear. 3 and 4 are both far more uncertain than 2.
The global warming people want to jump directly from #1 to #5, without establishing the intermediate steps 2, 3, and 4. They'll debate #2 a bit, but they don't like to have to prove 3 or 4. And without them, you don't get to 5.
I think 2, 3, and 4 might be true. And the probability of that might is that we should be taking reasonable steps to reduce carbon emissions. But that doesn't mean that any effort to reduce emissions is automatically King's X over any alternative. Evaluate the positives and negatives, the costs and benefits, and determine both realistically and objectively. Then do all those things where the benefits exceed the costs, and none of the ones where they don't.
(06-03-2018 09:39 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote: This board is full of lunatics.
The only accurate response to this thread thus far. Especially because the article is over 5 years old and the OP probably has no idea of that fact.
ETA - BTW if you want to see what has happened in the world since this article came out, you can click on this link. The 4 hottest years on record have happened since 2013. Maybe it's time for a new study?
Here's the money quote, for those who don't, you know, read:
To address this, we reconstruct the frames of one group of experts who have not received much attention in previous research and yet play a central role in understanding industry responses – professional experts in petroleum and related industries.
Yeah, that's what it says: It's a survey of oil company employees.
Probably a good place to quote Upton Sinclair:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
Fish in a barrel.
So you're implying that scientific or technical input must be filtered by the source of that information? And that certain "sources" may or may not be independent or objective?
(06-04-2018 07:28 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote: There's actually two separate issues.
1) The climate IS changing. It's constantly changing. It's changed numerous times over the 4.5 billion years the Earth has been around. It will continue to change. That's not really the question. The question is #2.
2) Is the changing climate a result of HUMAN BEHAVIOR. If you look at the issue with logic, you'll realize the changes the climate makes/has made over the years from warming to ice ages had NOTHING to do with the SUV, running your A/C, or burning coal. Knowing this, it is the height or arrogance to think that humans can do anything about something that's been happening on a regular basis for 4.5 billion years.
The global/climate/warming/change crowd is guilty of the same thing they claim the petroleum companies are, MONEY. If it's proved that humans have NOTHING to do with the "change", they stand to lose, what, BILLIONS of dollars in "research" grants and investments. How many people who've invested heavily in "green" energy would lose their backsides if their forced regulations and markets dried up? The enviro-nuts always say follow the money. I say right back at ya.
There's also a #3 and #4l, and a corollary #5:
3) Human behavior can change sufficiently to have a material impact.
4) If the trend is not reversed by human behavior, the impact will be catastrophic.
5) Therefore, we must take drastic action immediately, regardless of consequences.
I agree with your analysis of 1 and 2. Climate is changing, but the extent to which humans are responsible is unclear. 3 and 4 are both far more uncertain than 2.
The global warming people want to jump directly from #1 to #5, without establishing the intermediate steps 2, 3, and 4. They'll debate #2 a bit, but they don't like to have to prove 3 or 4. And without them, you don't get to 5.
I think 2, 3, and 4 might be true. And the probability of that might is that we should be taking reasonable steps to reduce carbon emissions. But that doesn't mean that any effort to reduce emissions is automatically King's X over any alternative. Evaluate the positives and negatives, the costs and benefits, and determine both realistically and objectively. Then do all those things where the benefits exceed the costs, and none of the ones where they don't.
And therein lies the problem I have with the climate crowd. The jury is still out and the science is FAR from conclusive that humans are having an effect let alone a catastrophic one.
This doesn't stop them from demanding that we MUST make drastic changes that will have potentially disastrous effects on society, our economy, and our way of life. Before we alter the course of human civilization, I'd like to have more proof than Algore's hockey stick graph.
There's nothing wrong with encouraging development of more efficient and cleaner energy sources but it shouldn't be mandated. Until there's a discovery made that uses cheap, easy, and abundant energy, we have to rely on fossil fuels. No sense pushing the "alternatives" until they're ready to step up. Sorry, but a plug in car that only goes 300 miles (under perfect conditions) that takes 8 hours to recharge the battery isn't ready to replace the car.
The other issue I have with the climate crew is that they refuse to even consider anything that doesn't fit their agenda. Just mention natural gas and they immediately dismiss the cheap, clean, and easy because they don't want pipelines "disturbing nature". It's there way or the highway.
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