Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Also she attacked the officer the officer didn’t attack her. And she attempted to flee

(06-01-2018 06:28 AM)Dynamos Wrote:  Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Also she attacked the officer the officer didn’t attack her. And she attempted to flee

Flee? Walking away backwards from an angry police officer?

Reminds me of the friend who got a ticket for speeding and fleeing an officer. The officer didn't clock him so he wrote it down at 21 mph (he almost immediately ran out of gas, so it wasn't very fast). That fleeing got dismissed.

The police officer deliberately escalated the confrontation. He could have explained the situation calmly, but he wanted to escalate it. Its like watching a road rage incident. He got ticked off that any of his authority was questioned and created an incident.

(06-01-2018 06:28 AM)Dynamos Wrote:  Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Right. The police officer was most likely out of line, but she wanted to have her day in court right then and there on the beach. Take your ticket, file a formal complaint against the officer, show up for your court date and state your case there. Throwing the first punch is never a good idea though.

(06-01-2018 07:52 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 06:28 AM)Dynamos Wrote:  Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Right. The police officer was most likely out of line, but she wanted to have her day in court right then and there on the beach. Take your ticket, file a formal complaint against the officer, show up for your court date and state your case there. Throwing the first punch is never a good idea though.

Ok so I've seen a video but it's hard to tell. Maybe i've seen the wrong one.

(06-01-2018 12:56 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 12:08 AM)solohawks Wrote:  UTSA and Kap, did the woman initiate contact? My recollection of the video, he said you're under arrest after she refused to provide her name. She freaked out and moved away from the officer, he lunged at her and it escalated very rapidly.

Also, assuming everything the officer did was legal, is that officers behavior an example of good policing?

Yes, she initiated contact as it pertains to assault. He informed her she was under arrest and any movement from that point on was an attempt to secure her.

Without knowing the specific municipal code and the importance placed upon the PD by town hall I can't say for sure in regards to the law. If town hall tells you "Strictly enforce this law" you have two choices as a municipal police officer: Do as they say or find employment elsewhere.

While I might have been a little more cordial initially in this incident nothing in this officer's conduct condones physically assaulting a police officer during an arrest. Easiest part of my law enforcement training was being taught verbal control methods because I had already learned it in my fire service leadership classes. The overwhelming majority of times I hear someone say "That cop was being a dick" it's actually them following their training. It's a method of verbal control....when you sound authoritative people tend to comply. We actually tested it on the fire service side during some training drills and had experienced personnel follow orders that violated SOP simply based on how they were issued over the radio.

The part that really concerns me is the "It was a 90 lb female". I really wish I could take those people out on the street and have then deal with an actual 90lb female who is assaulting them. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would have a change of heart. I understand, I was raised the same way many of them were in that you don't hit a woman. I got out on the street with the FD and I understood that was just like Hansel and Gretel, a fairy tale. I absolutely got my ass whipped on a medical call one night by a woman who I had eight inches and 80lbs on. Came home the next morning and told my wife she could slap me all she wanted, once it got past an open faced slap I would drop her like a bad habit. Chivalry is well and good in theory......work the streets and you'll discover it's really dead.

All this said I expect when it's said and done the town will either fire the officer or there will be a mutual separation simply because of public relations. This is an unfortunate incident but it is one that could have been avoided with just a little compliance.

Thanks for the response Kap.

My biggest problem is once he was on top of the woman and she was subdued, he hit her on the head with a closed fist multiple times. I don't think her actions justified the officer's intense reaction.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one as I view the officer as the one escalating the situation. The woman was in full compliance with all orders including blowing a breathalyzer multiple times without any issue.

Again, if I were her I would have questioned the breathalyzer from the get go, but then again I don't know the laws of the area.

(06-01-2018 08:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 07:52 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 06:28 AM)Dynamos Wrote:  Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Right. The police officer was most likely out of line, but she wanted to have her day in court right then and there on the beach. Take your ticket, file a formal complaint against the officer, show up for your court date and state your case there. Throwing the first punch is never a good idea though.

Ok so I've seen a video but it's hard to tell. Maybe i've seen the wrong one.

In the one I saw, she hits the cop square in the chest hard enough to turn his camera off.... So you miss a little bit of what happens before he turns it back on and hits her in the head a couple of times. I fully believe he was a large enough man to subdue her without punching her, but like I said, she should have just taken her ticket, filed a complaint, and fought the charge in a courtroom. Now that she's on camera throwing the first punch, it's going to be hard for her to win (IMO).

I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law. Yeah, I know, the law is the law... blah blah blah... but what benefit was this guy providing to society by even approaching this girl in the first place? I bet there was a drunk juice head on the boardwalk or in one of the bars, probably of legal age, trying to start fights at the exact same time this video was shot. 50 years ago, this incident never happens. I support the police in almost every instance, but their tactics have reached a level that often is no longer a benefit. If this department even has the resources to be harassing people that sitting on the beach bothering nobody, they have too many resources. I don't care if she was actually drinking the beer. What was his probable cause to approach her in the first place? She wasn't causing trouble and watching the video without the story, it sure isn't clear she is under age by looking at her. If the police want to improve public relations, they need to cut this schit out. And yes, after the fact, the girl acted inappropriately and deserved much of what she got (but not the beating).

(06-01-2018 08:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 07:52 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 06:28 AM)Dynamos Wrote:  Cop was being a dick but all she had to do is comply and have her day in court.

Right. The police officer was most likely out of line, but she wanted to have her day in court right then and there on the beach. Take your ticket, file a formal complaint against the officer, show up for your court date and state your case there. Throwing the first punch is never a good idea though.

Ok so I've seen a video but it's hard to tell. Maybe i've seen the wrong one.

It appears when he went to grab her she reached out her hands to shove him away. She initiated first contact and then he finished it.

(06-01-2018 08:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law.

Most underaged drinkers dont sip cosmos on the beach without bothering anybody. They end up getting loud, obnoxious, and then trash the place.

The moment word gets out that cops dont enforce underage drinking at a particular beach is the moment you get infested with underaged drinkers.

(06-01-2018 09:56 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 08:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law.

Most underaged drinkers dont sip cosmos on the beach without bothering anybody. They end up getting loud, obnoxious, and then trash the place.

The moment word gets out that cops dont enforce underage drinking at a particular beach is the moment you get infested with underaged drinkers.

So we need a paradigm where people are searched and questioned without probable cause?

(06-01-2018 09:56 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 08:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law.

Most underaged drinkers dont sip cosmos on the beach without bothering anybody. They end up getting loud, obnoxious, and then trash the place.

The moment word gets out that cops dont enforce underage drinking at a particular beach is the moment you get infested with underaged drinkers.

She wasn't drinking. She didn't even have an open container.

(06-01-2018 09:56 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 08:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law.

Most underaged drinkers dont sip cosmos on the beach without bothering anybody. They end up getting loud, obnoxious, and then trash the place.

The moment word gets out that cops dont enforce underage drinking at a particular beach is the moment you get infested with underaged drinkers.

She wasn't drinking. She didn't even have an open container.

bullet, open container doesn't apply to minors

(06-01-2018 01:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  bullet, open container doesn't apply to minors

But probable cause does and there was no probable cause that she was a minor and nobody was in imminent danger. The cop didn't know she was a minor and had no reason to believe she was a minor. There was no reason for the approach to begin with. In fact, it was illegal, in my opinion.

(06-01-2018 08:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I just think the cops should leave people alone that aren't bothering anyone and be more concerned with maintaining order than enforcing every law. Yeah, I know, the law is the law... blah blah blah... but what benefit was this guy providing to society by even approaching this girl in the first place? I bet there was a drunk juice head on the boardwalk or in one of the bars, probably of legal age, trying to start fights at the exact same time this video was shot. 50 years ago, this incident never happens. I support the police in almost every instance, but their tactics have reached a level that often is no longer a benefit. If this department even has the resources to be harassing people that sitting on the beach bothering nobody, they have too many resources. I don't care if she was actually drinking the beer. What was his probable cause to approach her in the first place? She wasn't causing trouble and watching the video without the story, it sure isn't clear she is under age by looking at her. If the police want to improve public relations, they need to cut this schit out. And yes, after the fact, the girl acted inappropriately and deserved much of what she got (but not the beating).

^^^^^THIS^^^^

Its like an officer throwing spike strips out on a freeway to stop someone doing 67 in a 65 mph zone. Its overkill and makes no real difference in public safety or the quality of life for anyone. He did it because he could--and he will likley end up costing his city money. If Im running that force, I dont want a guy with that level of decision making ability carrying a gun on my police force. He is a ticking time bomb that will eventually kill someone for no real reason. He's probably a pretty decent guy, but he simply doesnt have the right mental make up for police work. Its very difficult and its not for everyone. The good ones make it look easy---its not.

(06-01-2018 01:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  bullet, open container doesn't apply to minors

The point is that she hadn't even started the process.

This is a very interesting case that I would love to see go to the SCOTUS, especially with the probable cause. I hope the ACLU or some other group takes it on just to see what they have to say.

(06-01-2018 01:41 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 01:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  bullet, open container doesn't apply to minors

But probable cause does and there was no probable cause that she was a minor and nobody was in imminent danger. The cop didn't know she was a minor and had no reason to believe she was a minor. There was no reason for the approach to begin with. In fact, it was illegal, in my opinion.

yes, we're both just stating opinions and i appreciate that....

but the whole reason we require places to card anyone who looks below say 35 (I don't know exactly, but there IS a limit... I know because I'm old and don't get carded lol)

but you say no probable cause... well sure there is. You have someone who looks like they might be a minor, as I understand it, alone... with liquor present in public where such things happen with some regularity.

IMO, especially with the 'issue' that this is, that's probable cause which (had she been 21) would have ended.

I respect your difference of opinion here, and I wouldn't want this taking place everywhere all the time... but if this is an area where such things happen with some regularity and/or the city has decided to crack down on underage drinking in the area, then the cop had cause.

Had the bag been closed and/or liquor not visible, the cop would have had no probable cause... without her looking/acting intoxicated... but if he can see the liquor and she is the only person there and nobody else (over 21) is saying, that's my beer... then that is IMO probable cause

(06-01-2018 02:22 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 01:41 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-01-2018 01:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  bullet, open container doesn't apply to minors

But probable cause does and there was no probable cause that she was a minor and nobody was in imminent danger. The cop didn't know she was a minor and had no reason to believe she was a minor. There was no reason for the approach to begin with. In fact, it was illegal, in my opinion.

yes, we're both just stating opinions and i appreciate that....

but the whole reason we require places to card anyone who looks below say 35 (I don't know exactly, but there IS a limit... I know because I'm old and don't get carded lol)

but you say no probable cause... well sure there is. You have someone who looks like they might be a minor, as I understand it, alone... with liquor present in public where such things happen with some regularity.

IMO, especially with the 'issue' that this is, that's probable cause which (had she been 21) would have ended.

I respect your difference of opinion here, and I wouldn't want this taking place everywhere all the time... but if this is an area where such things happen with some regularity and/or the city has decided to crack down on underage drinking in the area, then the cop had cause.

Had the bag been closed and/or liquor not visible, the cop would have had no probable cause... without her looking/acting intoxicated... but if he can see the liquor and she is the only person there and nobody else (over 21) is saying, that's my beer... then that is IMO probable cause

We can agree to disagree. The difference between the cop asking for ID and a 7-Eleven clerk is that the 7-Eleven clerk will not impose criminal penalties if she fails to produce an ID or produces one showing she is underage. If this is probable cause than so is "driving while black". This is a bit like a DUI checkpoint. The reason that was deemed constitutional is because of the public threat of a drunk driving accident. I don't really think this meets that standard.