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Falling Attendance at State Universities
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emu steve Online
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Post: #1
Falling Attendance at State Universities
David Jesse of the Detroit Free Press did an excellent article on the problems facing MOST state of Michigan universities, other than UofM and MSU.

It has to do with declining college enrollment and credit hours attempted across the state.

This trend has been going on for YEARS.

Much of that has to do with demography. Decades of declining fertility has led to fewer college aged young adults.

This statement is staggering: "In 2008, there were 123,600 high school grads, according to state data. In 2018, the number is projected to be 104,600. In 2028, 88,000." (Freep article)

I also believe that the spigot of foreign students is declining, some of that may now be because of changing immigration policies. Think I read an article on that somewhere...

EMU has been facing budget shortfalls for a number of years, according to the article.

College administrator need to strategically plan for smaller enrollments and future budgets. NOT, NOT fun!!

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m...chromepush
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2018 11:57 AM by emu steve.)
05-30-2018 11:51 AM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
I don't live in Michigan so I really don't have a say how Michigan tax dollars are spent, but I'd think the state really needs to look at bolstering higher education.

A system of very high quality colleges and universities is a treasure for the citizens of a state and they shouldn't sit back and let the public higher education system deteriorate because of lack of public funding (which has steadily declined over the years).

Should be no reason why schools like EMU, CMU, WMU, OU, GVSU, etc. should be able to get say another 5 - 10M / year from the state to help balance their budgets.

We're talking say up to an extra 100M per year. If Michigan passed out say an extra $7M per year to EMU it would solve the budget crisis. We aren't talking huge sums like say 50M per school.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2018 12:08 PM by emu steve.)
05-30-2018 12:05 PM
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EagleTough Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(05-30-2018 12:05 PM)emu steve Wrote:  I don't live in Michigan so I really don't have a say how Michigan tax dollars are spent, but I'd think the state really needs to look at bolstering higher education.

A system of very high quality colleges and universities is a treasure for the citizens of a state and they shouldn't sit back and let the public higher education system deteriorate because of lack of public funding (which has steadily declined over the years).

Should be no reason why schools like EMU, CMU, WMU, OU, GVSU, etc. should be able to get say another 5 - 10M / year from the state to help balance their budgets.

We're talking say up to an extra 100M per year. If Michigan passed out say an extra $7M per year to EMU it would solve the budget crisis. We aren't talking huge sums like say 50M per school.

The bloated dinosaur is dying. Too many schools already. The last thing they need is more $$$$$$.

There is something called the internet that will eventually make the current model obsolete....it's just a matter of time.
05-30-2018 12:32 PM
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masttg Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
The internet is just as good as people. That is why I never attend anything in person. Sports-internet; Books-internet; financial planning-internet; Sex-internet. See the internet solves all of these problems. Soon, the internet will grow a tube to my mouth and I won't have to chew anymore.
05-30-2018 02:07 PM
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Luckeyone Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(05-30-2018 12:32 PM)EagleTough Wrote:  
(05-30-2018 12:05 PM)emu steve Wrote:  I don't live in Michigan so I really don't have a say how Michigan tax dollars are spent, but I'd think the state really needs to look at bolstering higher education.

A system of very high quality colleges and universities is a treasure for the citizens of a state and they shouldn't sit back and let the public higher education system deteriorate because of lack of public funding (which has steadily declined over the years).

Should be no reason why schools like EMU, CMU, WMU, OU, GVSU, etc. should be able to get say another 5 - 10M / year from the state to help balance their budgets.

We're talking say up to an extra 100M per year. If Michigan passed out say an extra $7M per year to EMU it would solve the budget crisis. We aren't talking huge sums like say 50M per school.

The bloated dinosaur is dying. Too many schools already. The last thing they need is more $$$$$$.

There is something called the internet that will eventually make the current model obsolete....it's just a matter of time.

Yes, online classes are gaining in popularity. Even working remotely has been more acceptable for some employees/companies to save time and money. One of my son's friends is enrolled at ASU and 3 of 4 classes are taught online. ETough's prediction that its a matter of time before today's conventional model becomes obsolete is spot on.

It will be a fierce battle to compete for on campus students. I have to believe that an University makes more money off of on campus vs online students.

To make us more attractive for on campus students: 1) build a state of the are dormitory that can house an additional 1000 students. Build it and they will come. 2) More programs in the high growth medical and engineering fields. 3) be very good in men's football and basketball so the students have on campus entertainment (internet can not provide atmosphere!!).
05-30-2018 02:24 PM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
I have a couple problems with online courses:

1). Try dissecting a frog online. Administer an intelligence test online or take a person's blood pressure online.

2). It is so easy to cheat. All it takes is for a student to have access to someone competent in the subject matter. Would the child of a medical doctor ever fail a course in anatomy and physiology? Or get someone who is a very good writer to proof, re-write, etc. papers.

Someone gets A's on papers written at home and C's on in class tests. Suggests one of two things: 1). The person puts in extreme amount of time and effort to 'over perform' on take home work. 2). The student is getting assistance.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2018 02:45 PM by emu steve.)
05-30-2018 02:44 PM
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(05-30-2018 02:44 PM)emu steve Wrote:  I have a couple problems with online courses:

1). Try dissecting a frog online. Administer an intelligence test online or take a person's blood pressure online.

2). It is so easy to cheat. All it takes is for a student to have access to someone competent in the subject matter. Would the child of a medical doctor ever fail a course in anatomy and physiology? Or get someone who is a very good writer to proof, re-write, etc. papers.

Someone gets A's on papers written at home and C's on in class tests. Suggests one of two things: 1). The person puts in extreme amount of time and effort to 'over perform' on take home work. 2). The student is getting assistance.

Always exceptions to the rule, and of course certain things can only be taught face-to-face........but the VAST MAJORITY of learning/education is simply a transfer of information.

How many thousands & thousands more people could be taught accounting without sitting in a physical classroom, and overpaying a clown like Bunsis (salary/benefits/retirement/etc) as he wastes half their time spewing his political beliefs, and whatever other personal nonsense he chooses as his flavor of the day.
05-30-2018 03:24 PM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(05-30-2018 03:24 PM)EagleTough Wrote:  
(05-30-2018 02:44 PM)emu steve Wrote:  I have a couple problems with online courses:

1). Try dissecting a frog online. Administer an intelligence test online or take a person's blood pressure online.

2). It is so easy to cheat. All it takes is for a student to have access to someone competent in the subject matter. Would the child of a medical doctor ever fail a course in anatomy and physiology? Or get someone who is a very good writer to proof, re-write, etc. papers.

Someone gets A's on papers written at home and C's on in class tests. Suggests one of two things: 1). The person puts in extreme amount of time and effort to 'over perform' on take home work. 2). The student is getting assistance.

Always exceptions to the rule, and of course certain things can only be taught face-to-face........but the VAST MAJORITY of learning/education is simply a transfer of information.

How many thousands & thousands more people could be taught accounting without sitting in a physical classroom, and overpaying a clown like Bunsis (salary/benefits/retirement/etc) as he wastes half their time spewing his political beliefs, and whatever other personal nonsense he chooses as his flavor of the day.

Fair enough, but I wouldn't want an accountant who passed half of his courses at home online with the friendly assistance of his CPA father...
05-30-2018 03:29 PM
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masttg Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Yes. Teachers make too much money!
05-30-2018 06:15 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
I can't disagree with any of the posts in this thread, I think everyone has contributed valid points. It appears a train wreck is coming and Dr. Martin took the business gamble of holding prices (tuition) steady with the expectation that sales (enrollment) growth would increase revenue. She lost that bet but at least she was trying to do something other than simply whining about dwindling state support.

I think Dr. Smith has truly done some other positive things. Decreasing the vertical operation of EMU by getting out of the parking business is one of them as Universities are hardly efficient with respect to normal business operations. The collaboration with St. Joes on the new health building is wonderful as it serves the community as well as EMU. It is high time that Michigan universities start calculating how they can serve they areas they inhabit rather than just removing property from local tax rolls.

Now who is the major roadblock to any such changes? The Bunsis, Kullberg, Krause's of the world, otherwise known as EMU faculty. Their world MUST be preserved at all costs regardless of the health of their employer! Enrollment and thus revenue is declining for many state Universities but education cost inflation has gotten out of control. In 1974 I paid $33 per credit hour and upon graduation got a job that paid me a little south of $5 per hour. Today's student pays almost ten times as much as me $300 for that same credit hour while the company that I hired in with is paying only three times at $15/hour for an introductory wage. 10 times the cost for 3 times the return is not a comparable rate of return.

The faculty unions of these schools can continue to resist any change like ours at EMU. I presume that they will enjoy the same fate as many non-cooperative auto workers when their companies decided that closing their plants was the only option.
05-30-2018 06:31 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
I can't disagree with any of the posts in this thread, I think everyone has contributed valid points. It appears a train wreck is coming and Dr. Martin took the business gamble of holding prices (tuition) steady with the expectation that sales (enrollment) growth would increase revenue. She lost that bet but at least she was trying to do something other than simply whining about dwindling state support.

I think Dr. Smith has truly done some other positive things. Decreasing the vertical operation of EMU by getting out of the parking business is one of them as Universities are hardly efficient with respect to normal business operations. The collaboration with St. Joes on the new health building is wonderful as it serves the community as well as EMU. It is high time that Michigan universities start calculating how they can serve they areas they inhabit rather than just removing property from local tax rolls.

Now who is the major roadblock to any such changes? The Bunsis, Kullberg, Krause's of the world, otherwise known as EMU faculty. Their world MUST be preserved at all costs regardless of the health of their employer! Enrollment and thus revenue is declining for many state Universities but education cost inflation has gotten out of control. In 1974 I paid $33 per credit hour and upon graduation got a job that paid me a little south of $5 per hour. Today's student pays almost ten times as much as me $300 for that same credit hour while the company that I hired in with is paying only three times at $15/hour for an introductory wage. 10 times the cost for 3 times the return is not a comparable rate of return.

The faculty unions of these schools can continue to resist any change like ours at EMU. I presume that they will enjoy the same fate as many non-cooperative auto workers when their companies decided that closing their plants was the only option.
05-30-2018 06:32 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
I can't disagree with any of the posts in this thread, I think everyone has contributed valid points. It appears a train wreck is coming and Dr. Martin took the business gamble of holding prices (tuition) steady with the expectation that sales (enrollment) growth would increase revenue. She lost that bet but at least she was trying to do something other than simply whining about dwindling state support.

I think Dr. Smith has truly done some other positive things. Decreasing the vertical operation of EMU by getting out of the parking business is one of them as Universities are hardly efficient with respect to normal business operations. The collaboration with St. Joes on the new health building is wonderful as it serves the community as well as EMU. It is high time that Michigan universities start calculating how they can serve they areas they inhabit rather than just removing property from local tax rolls.

Now who is the major roadblock to any such changes? The Bunsis, Kullberg, Krause's of the world, otherwise known as EMU faculty. Their world MUST be preserved at all costs regardless of the health of their employer! Enrollment and thus revenue is declining for many state Universities but education cost inflation has gotten out of control. In 1974 I paid $33 per credit hour and upon graduation got a job that paid me a little south of $5 per hour. Today's student pays almost ten times as much as me $300 for that same credit hour while the company that I hired in with is paying only three times at $15/hour for an introductory wage. 10 times the cost for 3 times the return is not a comparable rate of return.

The faculty unions of these schools can continue to resist any change like ours at EMU. I presume that they will enjoy the same fate as many non-cooperative auto workers when their companies decided that closing their plants was the only option.
05-30-2018 06:32 PM
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EagleTough Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(05-30-2018 06:15 PM)masttg Wrote:  Yes. Teachers make too much money!

Not going to get baited into that straw man argument.

Focusing on the subject of this thread.......EMU and many other schools have a huge problem, most are adding more and more online classes, State budgets and unfunded liabilities are even worse. You can extrapolate the rest.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2018 07:52 PM by EagleTough.)
05-30-2018 07:35 PM
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masttg Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Jerry I appreciate your honesty and sincerity. But I don't get how you came to this conclusion. In 1974 the average CEO made $1million and the average worker made $47k (inflation corrected) today CEOs average $16million and the Dow is 48X larger, yet the average worker makes $53k https://www.epi.org/publication/top-ceos...1-percent/

During that time private sector unions have shrank, but public sector unions are flat https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...10-7-in-17

I don't see how graduate wages being depressed is due to the faculty union. The union is the same size that it was in 1974. In fact, maybe the fact that private unions shrank explains why todays graduates make so little per hour. Your $5 bucks per hour in 1974 is almost $25 per hour now https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?...ar2=201804
05-30-2018 07:50 PM
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holybovine Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Higher education costs have soared nationally due to an increase in administrative hires and salaries. But go ahead and blame the faculty.
05-30-2018 10:40 PM
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emu79 Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Let U of M privatize.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2018 07:31 AM by emu79.)
05-31-2018 01:33 AM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Feel like I studied some biology on the Internet. Okay, not much though:

https://twitter.com/MLBONFOX/status/1002008913309384704
05-31-2018 04:33 AM
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Ken Barna Offline
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
Dear Friends,
My two cents is the failure of our State government to fund higher education the way that was done over twenty years ago. So many of us (society) continue to believe the myth that we can exist with constant tax cuts. Until people realize that it takes money to fix our infrastructure, pay for medical costs, and yes fund education, we are just going to go round and round about what to do.
06-01-2018 08:52 AM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
(06-01-2018 08:52 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Friends,
My two cents is the failure of our State government to fund higher education the way that was done over twenty years ago. So many of us (society) continue to believe the myth that we can exist with constant tax cuts. Until people realize that it takes money to fix our infrastructure, pay for medical costs, and yes fund education, we are just going to go round and round about what to do.

I agree.

Certain things which we deem infrastructure which can be more than roads and bridges (and mass transportation) include school systems and higher education.

ALL of this has to do with the COMMON GOOD. Who wants a new 2018 BMW and then ruin a tire with a pothole. And how many working or middle class families want (or can afford) to pay for a Notre Dame cost education?

Or who wants a higher education system which looks more like a private higher education system (hint: as state percentage of funding continues to decline public and private higher education schools will be funded more closely and that isn't good).
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2018 09:05 AM by emu steve.)
06-01-2018 09:00 AM
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RE: Falling Attendance at State Universities
This is some great conversation.

Unfortunately, higher education is the last thing to be funded by the state of Michigan (last time I heard) -- in other words, we get the leftovers. Hopefully, the state can find new revenue streams through marijuana and sports gambling. Not sure we will ever truly know where the tax dollars go (clearly not better roads).

Yes, the bubble will burst soon. Hopefully nothing like 2008.

What sucks is, we should have seen this coming for the last 10 years and have done nothing until now.

Our stadium is built from a different era (way too many seats, way too far away from the action).

Love all the opinions
06-01-2018 09:04 AM
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