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What's in a name?
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OdinFrigg Online
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Post: #81
RE: What's in a name?
Suggesting certain schools have name changes to include "Tech" for Technology is absurd when such state schools don't have a historical basis for such and/or lack reputable engineering and industrial technology programs on the graduate school level. And these would be outstanding beyond programs in liberal arts, business, teacher educaton, etc.
06-18-2018 02:18 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #82
RE: What's in a name?
(06-18-2018 12:48 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I have to totally disagree with anyone who says the "University of California" or "UC" brand is anything but massively successful. The imaage and reality of an elite set of public institutions is internationally recognized. If you look at the HERD metrics it's unquestioned:

Research R&D
School (National Rank)
UC San Francisco (4)
UC San Diego (7)
UC Los Angeles (12)
UC Berkeley (26)
UC Davis (27)
Scripps Institute (61)
UC Irvine (67)

Doctorates Earned
UC Berkeley (4)
UC Los Angeles (10)
UC San Diego (20)
UC Davis (23)
UC Irvine (44)
UC Santa Barbara (52)
UC Riverside (82)
UC Santa Cruz (106)
UC San Francisco (128)

Fed Obligations (Grants)
UC San Francisco (5)
UC Los Angeles (9)
UC San Diego (23)
UC Berkeley (27)
Scripps Institute (46)
UC Irvine (50)
UC Santa Barbara (80)
UC Riverside (99)

The admission standards are higher than any other public University (well UW is up there, but the UC system is more restrictive than the likes of Michigan and Virginia), and the graduation rates are also higher than other elite public systems. These public metrics match numbers of the entire P12, B1G and Ivy League. The number of top 25 and top 50 rankings is incredible. The brand name of UC carries huge prestige.

As for any academic who has not heard of UCSD, well they are simply not paying much attention.

(Note, this very over the top, near Ivy League elite admission standards is precisely my criticism of the California higher education system, it limits access far too much, and does not offer the next tier of students, who would easily get into flagships and majors they want with 70% graduation rates expected in 45 other states, quality next tier schools)

Those three rankings you listed are accomplishments, not brand recognition. With accomplishments like those, all those schools should be household names.

But other than UCLA and Cal, they're not well-known. Even academics outside California are less likely to be familiar with UCSD/UCSB/UCI/UCD than they are with less prestigious schools like Temple, Iowa, Boston College, or UT-Dallas. That's a marketing failure.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2018 05:33 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
06-19-2018 05:32 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: What's in a name?
(06-19-2018 05:32 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Those three rankings you listed are accomplishments, not brand recognition. With accomplishments like those, all those schools should be household names.

But other than UCLA and Cal, they're not well-known. Even academics outside California are less likely to be familiar with UCSD/UCSB/UCI/UCD than they are with less prestigious schools like Temple, Iowa, Boston College, or UT-Dallas. That's a marketing failure.

If you live in California they are all extremely well known. And internationally they are well known; 15% of students are international and they have to meet even higher than Ivy League standards. UC San Diego received 84,209 applicants for about 8,000 slots. They are impacted at every significant major of study. The average SAT admitted was 1894, 47% of ACT score above 30. The average GPA of incoming Freshmen was 4.0.

That some JuCo students and football fans in the Midwest and South don't know who they are is of no concern. Heck most folks don't know GWU, CMU, CIT, RPI, RIT, Cooper Union, Emory or Tufts. But nerds and businesses know them all and well, especially Engineering departments.

They are known by who needs to know them. The application numbers and academic partnerships with other universities bear that out.

BTW, UC schools work as a single unit for research, making it by far the most powerful system to belong to as an academic in the United State. It doesn't matter if you are in Merced, Santa Barbara, Berkeley or Santa Cruz, you are hooked into the nexus, and have all the benfits of that. No system anywhere matched that.
06-19-2018 08:03 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #84
RE: What's in a name?
I think the names are only really bad when they are bi-directional.

SW Missouri St to Missouri St.
SW Texas St to Texas St.
SW Louisiana to Louisiana

At this point you are then getting confused with other bi-directional schools in state and the perception is a bi-directional school is likely not a Division I college.

Most of the one direction, directional schools do play at the D1 level so I don't think its quite the perception battle for Northern Colorado or Western Michigan. It sounds big time compared to NE Colorado St. or SW Michigan St.
06-19-2018 09:18 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #85
RE: What's in a name?
Ohio is named Ohio University and not The University of Ohio. At one time they considered a change but decided against it.

A lot of Ohio's competition for students has traditionally been other private universities in the region and therefore marketing like a quasi-private university has always made sense. The small college feel with the resources of a public university. Bigger and better athletically. None of those small college town schools in the OH-PA region have the facilities we do.

For athletic branding its been OHIO though. The goal is to become a Utah where all the conference level recruits head here because its the top brand. It doesn't work as well as out west because there is too much talent in MAC country for one school to monopolize all of it and dominate everyone else.
06-19-2018 09:44 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #86
RE: What's in a name?
(06-19-2018 09:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I think the names are only really bad when they are bi-directional.

SW Missouri St to Missouri St.
SW Texas St to Texas St.
SW Louisiana to Louisiana

At this point you are then getting confused with other bi-directional schools in state and the perception is a bi-directional school is likely not a Division I college.

Most of the one direction, directional schools do play at the D1 level so I don't think its quite the perception battle for Northern Colorado or Western Michigan. It sounds big time compared to NE Colorado St. or SW Michigan St.

Those were all huge changes.

Central Connecticut St -> Connecticut St
SIU-Edwardsville -> Lincoln State
SE Louisiana -> ?????

And all is well in directional land.
06-20-2018 03:16 AM
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balanced_view Offline
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Post: #87
RE: What's in a name?
(06-17-2018 11:37 PM)Huskypride Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 04:45 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 04:30 PM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  
(06-06-2018 01:18 PM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  
(06-05-2018 05:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Us Cuse fans like you to rename yourselves: we threw out the "4>1" suggestion for obvious reasons and went with Storz St.

However I like Storz Hartford Institute of Technology

We already are LOUISIANA. And, instead of ULL, we use LA.

LA in caps is Los Angeles. La is Louisiana.

LA in caps is the official 2-letter Postal abbreviation for Louisiana.


I've been to Louisiana interesting place...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Usually when someone says "Louisiana is interesting", there is a story behind it. you are free to share with the board if you like! 04-cheers
06-20-2018 05:11 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #88
RE: What's in a name?
(06-19-2018 08:03 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(06-19-2018 05:32 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Those three rankings you listed are accomplishments, not brand recognition. With accomplishments like those, all those schools should be household names.

But other than UCLA and Cal, they're not well-known. Even academics outside California are less likely to be familiar with UCSD/UCSB/UCI/UCD than they are with less prestigious schools like Temple, Iowa, Boston College, or UT-Dallas. That's a marketing failure.

If you live in California they are all extremely well known. And internationally they are well known; 15% of students are international and they have to meet even higher than Ivy League standards. UC San Diego received 84,209 applicants for about 8,000 slots. They are impacted at every significant major of study. The average SAT admitted was 1894, 47% of ACT score above 30. The average GPA of incoming Freshmen was 4.0.

That some JuCo students and football fans in the Midwest and South don't know who they are is of no concern. Heck most folks don't know GWU, CMU, CIT, RPI, RIT, Cooper Union, Emory or Tufts. But nerds and businesses know them all and well, especially Engineering departments.

They are known by who needs to know them. The application numbers and academic partnerships with other universities bear that out.

BTW, UC schools work as a single unit for research, making it by far the most powerful system to belong to as an academic in the United State. It doesn't matter if you are in Merced, Santa Barbara, Berkeley or Santa Cruz, you are hooked into the nexus, and have all the benfits of that. No system anywhere matched that.

Other than UCLA and UC-Berkeley, the UC system is FAR behind its peers in international enrollment.

In 2014/15, the UC-system school with the highest international enrollment (UCLA) had 6,400. 12 of the 14 Big 10 schools had more than that. Even a lot of MAC schools have more international students than the lower-ranking UC-system schools.

An aside: I've found that's a typical California thing - to brag about being cutting edge when you're really 10 years behind the rest of the country.

And I wouldn't brag about the UC-system's centralized academic bureaucracy. I had to deal with a similar system as a CSU employee for 3 years. I actually had a paycheck arrive 7 weeks late - twice! And if I wanted reimbursement for a minor expense at an academic conference or for a taking a job candidate to dinner? Forget about submitting a receipt to the department chair, like other schools do - you've got to fill out five pages of paperwork and send them to Sacramento for thorough scrutiny.
06-20-2018 11:19 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: What's in a name?
Bearcat,

Look at the numbers, you are talking emotionally not factually. The sheer amount of money per peer in the UC System is incredibly high. You have no idea what you are arguing. To me it seems to be football fan visibility. Like so what?

We should compare the numbers to well know schools like Cincy, Houston, and Temple whom you cite, the lesser known in their states. Guess what, these brand names fall way short of even UC Riverside.

As for bureaucracy, I would argue the duplication in the Texas and the Illinois systems is far more inefficient. Where the UC system is inefficient is in opening new campuses rather than expanding existing ones (when space is available, such as Davis and Santa Cruz), and thus incurring the overhead of a duplicate administration. They also have been very slow to change the mix toward STEM, because they are impacted (compare to Stanford and USC, both of which are effectively Polytechs now, and they keep up their growth that way, as we have seen in many smaller private schools around the country). But this a common problem with almost all comprehensive public universities.

California's issue is not with the UC system, but the CSU system that is more an afterthought and not properly cared for. The UC system inefficiencies have more to do with excesses of political appointees (cough, Janet Napolitano) and politicians not doing oversight (cough, Gavin Newsom, Mr. absent for 8 years) than with unity of the system.

California has a uniformity of standards in the UC system, and at the same time the highest standard of admission and accomplishment of any system which are the envy of every other system in the nation. You wont find that uniformity in the UT system in Texas nor in the Ohio State system, the University of Wisconsin system, nor even the SUNY system in New York.

You need much more evidence than the subjective "well I haven't heard of it" argument.

Our sheer size, with 40 million residents and 6 counties much larger than any metros in Ohio has challenges you don't face.
06-20-2018 11:57 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #90
RE: What's in a name?
Bearcat,

Look at the numbers, you are talking emotionally not factually. The sheer amount of money per peer in the UC System is incredibly high. You have no idea what you are arguing. To me it seems to be football fan visibility. Like so what?

We should compare the numbers to well know schools like Cincy, Houston, and Temple whom you cite, the lesser known in their states. Guess what, these brand names fall way short of even UC Riverside.

As for bureaucracy, I would argue the duplication in the Texas and the Illinois systems is far more inefficient. Where the UC system is inefficient is in opening new campuses rather than expanding existing ones (when space is available, such as Davis and Santa Cruz), and thus incurring the overhead of a duplicate administration. They also have been very slow to change the mix toward STEM, because they are impacted (compare to Stanford and USC, both of which are effectively Polytechs now, and they keep up their growth that way, as we have seen in many smaller private schools around the country). But this a common problem with almost all comprehensive public universities.

California's issue is not with the UC system, but the CSU system that is more an afterthought and not properly cared for. The UC system inefficiencies have more to do with excesses of political appointees (cough, Janet Napolitano) and politicians not doing oversight (cough, Gavin Newsom, Mr. absent for 8 years) than with unity of the system.

California has a uniformity of standards in the UC system, and at the same time the highest standard of admission and accomplishment of any system which are the envy of every other system in the nation. You wont find that uniformity in the UT system in Texas nor in the Ohio State system, the University of Wisconsin system, nor even the SUNY system in New York.

You need much more evidence than the subjective "well I haven't heard of it" argument.

Our sheer size, with 40 million residents and 6 counties much larger than any metros in Ohio has challenges you don't face.
06-20-2018 11:57 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #91
RE: What's in a name?
(06-20-2018 11:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Other than UCLA and UC-Berkeley, the UC system is FAR behind its peers in international enrollment.

In 2014/15, the UC-system school with the highest international enrollment (UCLA) had 6,400. 12 of the 14 Big 10 schools had more than that. Even a lot of MAC schools have more international students than the lower-ranking UC-system schools.

C'mon. Most of those Big Ten schools have ginormous student bodies, so despite the numbers their percentage of international students is lower. Just as one example, Ohio State (< 11%) has a lower percentage of international students than every UC campus in that list except Davis.
06-20-2018 12:02 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #92
RE: What's in a name?
Also California set a limit at 15% international. That is the number they hit as a system. It can't go up unless the State ups the quota.
06-20-2018 01:36 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #93
RE: What's in a name?
(06-20-2018 01:36 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Also California set a limit at 15% international. That is the number they hit as a system. It can't go up unless the State ups the quota.

That's another relevant issue. The UC schools are extremely in demand among California residents. There are six UC campuses -- Berkeley, Davis, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Santa Barbara -- that are more selective (have a lower undergraduate acceptance rate) than every university in the Big Ten other than Northwestern and Michigan.
06-20-2018 02:26 PM
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GiveEmTheAxe Offline
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Post: #94
RE: What's in a name?
(06-20-2018 02:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-20-2018 01:36 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Also California set a limit at 15% international. That is the number they hit as a system. It can't go up unless the State ups the quota.

That's another relevant issue. The UC schools are extremely in demand among California residents. There are six UC campuses -- Berkeley, Davis, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Santa Barbara -- that are more selective (have a lower undergraduate acceptance rate) than every university in the Big Ten other than Northwestern and Michigan.

Coincidentally, those are also the six UC campuses that are members of the AAU.
06-20-2018 06:27 PM
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