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Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
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johnbragg Offline
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Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
I thought I remembered a citation from the NCAA that limited the number of schools a conference could transition at one time.

CUSA, for example, brought in UTSA in 2013, ODU in 2014 and Charlotte in 2015.

The WAC brought in Texas State for 2012 and--also UTSA in 2012.

Rule 20.9.9.2.2.1 (page 367 2017-18 manual) just says that a reclassifying team counts in the division they are in on Sept 1, nothing about limits on reclassifiers.

NCAA FAQ from 2014 says about the same.

Does anybody have a citation about limits on how many reclassifiers you can count, or am I about to change my mind?
05-25-2018 07:51 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
I've always heard only one transitioning school could count but I'm not sure.
05-25-2018 08:09 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 07:51 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I thought I remembered a citation from the NCAA that limited the number of schools a conference could transition at one time.

CUSA, for example, brought in UTSA in 2013, ODU in 2014 and Charlotte in 2015.

The WAC brought in Texas State for 2012 and--also UTSA in 2012.

Rule 20.9.9.2.2.1 (page 367 2017-18 manual) just says that a reclassifying team counts in the division they are in on Sept 1, nothing about limits on reclassifiers.

NCAA FAQ from 2014 says about the same.

Does anybody have a citation about limits on how many reclassifiers you can count, or am I about to change my mind?

No limit, There is, however, a limit as to how many transitional schools can count toward satisfying the home scheduling requirements of FBS schools.
05-25-2018 08:35 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
I never heard anything about a limit on the number of schools a conference can transition. The transition is a two year process. 1st year you're considered FCS but can't play in the playoffs and the second you're FBS but not bowl eligible. Typically a transitioning team will need to play the first season in their old FCS conference (or coble together an independent schedule depending on timing) and the second they'll be put on their new FBS conferences schedule. The reason being that if they were included in the FBS conference their first year it would burden the other conference teams with an FCS game when they might already have one scheduled and only one can be counted towards bowl eligibility.


There was some kind of waiver for the WAC when both TxSt and UTSA were brought in I believe and that might be what you're thinking about but I don't know the details of that.
05-25-2018 08:35 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
I think you can't play 2 D2 schools in the same year when they are moving up to D1. Southland had to get a waiver when they brought 2 up at the same time.
05-25-2018 09:10 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 07:51 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I thought I remembered a citation from the NCAA that limited the number of schools a conference could transition at one time.

CUSA, for example, brought in UTSA in 2013, ODU in 2014 and Charlotte in 2015.

The WAC brought in Texas State for 2012 and--also UTSA in 2012.

Rule 20.9.9.2.2.1 (page 367 2017-18 manual) just says that a reclassifying team counts in the division they are in on Sept 1, nothing about limits on reclassifiers.

NCAA FAQ from 2014 says about the same.

Does anybody have a citation about limits on how many reclassifiers you can count, or am I about to change my mind?

There is not any bight line rule that the public can access.

The NCAA has addressed the issue twice via interpretation regarding the 2012 season.

One was South Alabama. The initial plan was for USA to do year 2 of reclassification in 2012 as a football independent. The NCAA ruled that USA couldn't count both UTSA and NW State (reclassifying and FCS respectively) so the schedule was adapted to have USA play a full Sun Belt schedule, which ended up being a good decision because UTSA did not end up playing a qualifying FBS schedule in 2012 (see next paragraph) and USA would have been short had the schedule not been adjusted.

When the WAC was fighting for survival as an FBS league with Texas State and UTSA joining and casting about trying to get a Big Sky or any one else to jump, an interpretation was requested on this matter by the WAC.

The NCAA ruled that 20.9.9.2 was the criteria for attaining/retaining FBS membership and that 20.9.9.2.2 only applied to members classified FBS based in part on a Management Council finding/ruling that was not codified (if you go through the FAQ linked you will see cites to Management Council meetings).

The NCAA has twice concluded that a transition can't count a transition except toward the five home game requirement as a high scholarship FBS.

When the Sun Belt was raided, those two rulings were the basis of the Sun Belt decision to add NMSU and Idaho as football only, they wouldn't help the conference meet the 8 full member requirement but gave the conference some cushion in the event of additional raids to insure they could get everyone transitioned properly.

Just as a logical matter, if nine FCS schools one day declared we want to be FBS and filed the needed paper work, if they could count transitional schools, the nine schools could play each other round robin to get 8 games to meet the 8 total game requirement, could count the four home games and a high scholarship FCS to meet the home requirement and fill the remaining four non-conference games with non-FBS schools, you could reclassify without having ever played an existing FBS school.

Could someone sue and claim that the rule isn't clear that such isn't allowed? Absolutely and the NCAA would have to argue that the rule is actually as they interpret they just didn't codify it properly and the schools shouldn't have relied solely on the Division I Manual since the interpretations are (or at least are supposed to be) available to members for review.
05-25-2018 09:36 AM
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TrueBlueDrew Online
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2018 09:47 AM by TrueBlueDrew.)
05-25-2018 09:44 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.
05-25-2018 09:52 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Yep. In 2014, we technically only played 2 full-fledged FBS teams at home.
05-25-2018 10:08 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 09:10 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  I think you can't play 2 D2 schools in the same year when they are moving up to D1. Southland had to get a waiver when they brought 2 up at the same time.

I don't recall issues in any sports except for two conference teams in men's basketball. In both cases, the schools exceeded the no more than 4 non-DI schools on the schedule limit when including Abilene Christian and Incarnate Word. In the sequence of events, the forfeits were initiated by the Southland Conference and then waived by the NCAA. Below are links to CBS Sports HQ articles discussing the NCAA waiver for Stephen F. Austin and Oral Roberts in that sport.

Southland ruling

NCAA waiver.

Stephen F. Austin went on to a 32-3 record (18-0 in the SLC) and an NCAA tournament appearance as a #12 seed in Brad Underwood's first year with the Lumberjacks.
05-25-2018 10:20 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 10:08 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Yep. In 2014, we technically only played 2 full-fledged FBS teams at home.

I see three - Idaho, Troy, ULM. App st was transitioning too and then Savannah St

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-14/sun-b...hedule.php
05-25-2018 11:24 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 11:24 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 10:08 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Yep. In 2014, we technically only played 2 full-fledged FBS teams at home.

I see three - Idaho, Troy, ULM. App st was transitioning too and then Savannah St

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-14/sun-b...hedule.php

And I doubt Savannah State even awarded enough rides to count as an FCS toward the five. Maybe that was part of the must invite interpretation and NCAA waived the technical non-compliance.
05-25-2018 11:30 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 11:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 11:24 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 10:08 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Yep. In 2014, we technically only played 2 full-fledged FBS teams at home.

I see three - Idaho, Troy, ULM. App st was transitioning too and then Savannah St

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-14/sun-b...hedule.php

And I doubt Savannah State even awarded enough rides to count as an FCS toward the five. Maybe that was part of the must invite interpretation and NCAA waived the technical non-compliance.


I know that several schools deserved to be FBS because they are ready to be there, but where to place them? Should the NCAA do another forced or reclassified FBS schools who do not meet the threshold, and allow schools from FCS to replace them?
05-25-2018 11:39 AM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
Let's say 5 schools all want to come up the same year. Liberty, UMass, and NMSU agree to play all 5, such that the transitioning schools each get 2 Home games and 1 Away game. These 5 also play eachother providing 2 Home Games and 2 Away games to each school. Each transitioning school now has 7 games on the schedule and 4 are at Home. How would they need to schedule the last 5 to count for transition year 2?
05-25-2018 02:06 PM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
It really doesn't matter. It's a two year transition where you are ineligible for post season. The first year you count FCS, the second year FBS. But most schools play the first year in transition as a D-I FCS Independent, and only have a full blown FBS schedule the 2nd year.

Liberty played it's first transition year in 2017 in FCS and I think ODU did as well when they came up, with a sort of mixed FCS and FBS schedule. But UNCC came straight into C-USA from nothing. That might have caused some schools problems with two FCS counting games (note 90% of 63 scholarships required to count, or 58 FTE ... this is why some FCS, notably many HBCU schools, can't play FBS schools, not enough scholarships to count).

I know all this has to do with NoDak's Great North nonsense. Really there are two ways to do it.

For the sake of argument let's say the WAC does indeed decide to restart as an FBS football conference, and invites a group of say 6 schools (NDSU, SDSU, UND, Idaho, Montana, Montana State) to join as full members (this is part of the clause NoDak ignores, these guys would be playing Basketball with a strange hodgepdge of schools). What could be done is everyone applies for reclassification, say June 1st 2020, and begins transitioning. But the WAC brings them in for Olympics in 2021-22, and they all stay down with an FCS heavy mixed Independent schedule in 2021, basically playing each other, playing maybe 3-4 FBS road opponents to build up cash and FBS level experience, and buying 2-3 low end FCS and D-II opponents to fill out the schedule. In this year they are expanding the scholarships, probably somewhere in the low 70s, with the target of 77+ by the second year (don't want to just throw scholarships at anyone). Then in 2022 they all play the 2nd year of transition in the WAC, with >90% of the 85 scholarship, so count as FBS opponent, although the schools are not eligible for post season. There is no problem here, beyond needing to find 5 FBS opponents (they can all schedule an FCS and they get 6 WAC games in a 7 school league counting NMSU).

The second way would be to start WAC FBS a year early. I really doubt NMSU would agree to this as they would have to play something like 6 non-counting schools to have a 7 school FBS minimum. But this would also cause many other problems, as you would need to find 30+ schools willing to schedule these FCS counting schools. IMO this is not workable, only the first one is, with the 6 schools transitioning as an FCS Independent group the first year. It's simply too many to go the Charlotte route (note Charlotte only needed 4 non-conference games, and that includes FCS opponents since they didn't count anyway), as that just required 8 C-USA schools to play a single FCS counting transitioning school.

So it's really not an issue in NoDak's plans. Now the problem with getting any Playoff money is another matter, that obviously would not kick in until after transition was done, and it would probably be the absolute minimum of a non-Notre Dame Independent rather than coming from the non-autonomous group of five pool.
05-25-2018 02:46 PM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 02:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let's say 5 schools all want to come up the same year. Liberty, UMass, and NMSU agree to play all 5, such that the transitioning schools each get 2 Home games and 1 Away game. These 5 also play eachother providing 2 Home Games and 2 Away games to each school. Each transitioning school now has 7 games on the schedule and 4 are at Home. How would they need to schedule the last 5 to count for transition year 2?


It depends on who the 5 are. The playoff committee have been encouraging the FBS schools to schedule the tough FCS schools for SoS.

Eastern Washington
McNeese State
Jacksonville State
James Madison
Youngstown State
Central Arkansas
William and Mary
South Dakota State
Illinois State

All have been strong against FBS schools. They might find the right people to play. McNeese State, Jacksonville State and Central Arkansas could pickup a game with the SEC teams at the second to last game of the year. They are better for SoS than South Carolina State.
05-25-2018 02:48 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

A little. The Manual says that schools in year 2 of their transitions count as an FBS opponent. The question is, can you could more than one transitioner as an FBS opponent. The common wisdom (or maybe just me) was that you could only count one transitioner. But the NCAA manual doesn't say that, the FAQ from 2014 doesn't say that.

So the possibilities are
1. Only-count-one is not the rule and I was wrong.
2. I just haven't googled the right search terms for the NCAA ruling that says "only one transitioner counts"

Looking at the 2014 Sun Belt, both App State and G-Southern transitioned at the same time. But maybe the Belt was just really careful not to schedule anybody with home games vs both Appy and Georgia Southern. (Bowls would be something to look at, except Southern was undefeated in the belt, so nobody had 6 wins, 2 against transitioners and either went to a bowl or got locked out of a bowl.)

(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Counting transitioners as opponents (with no cap) would mean that the WAC could start basically tomorrow with NMSU, a returning Idaho and 6 FCS upgrades.

(05-25-2018 02:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let's say 5 schools all want to come up the same year. Liberty, UMass, and NMSU agree to play all 5, such that the transitioning schools each get 2 Home games and 1 Away game. These 5 also play eachother providing 2 Home Games and 2 Away games to each school. Each transitioning school now has 7 games on the schedule and 4 are at Home. How would they need to schedule the last 5 to count for transition year 2?

You need 5 home games, 4 home games vs FBS so that part is taken care of (2 games vs Liberty/UMass/NMSU, 2 games vs other transitioners). Then you just need to meet the minimum number of FBS games, Which I think is 8 (70% of your games, but I can't check the rule right now). You're not going bowling anyway, so buy 4 more FCS games or whatever.

(05-25-2018 02:46 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no problem here, beyond needing to find 5 FBS opponents (they can all schedule an FCS and they get 6 WAC games in a 7 school league counting NMSU).

No, that actually is the big problem, putting together 4 FBS home games. If your transitioning buddies can all count, it's easy. If you can only count one transitioner, you need 3 real FBS schools to come play at your stadium.
05-25-2018 03:08 PM
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 02:46 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no problem here, beyond needing to find 5 FBS opponents (they can all schedule an FCS and they get 6 WAC games in a 7 school league counting NMSU).

No, that actually is the big problem, putting together 4 FBS home games. If your transitioning buddies can all count, it's easy. If you can only count one transitioner, you need 3 real FBS schools to come play at your stadium.

It's a problem for the schools for sure to get 11 FBS games. But it's not a p[roblem for potential opponents in that 2nd year of transition, because they count as FBS.

Since those schools are not eligible for post-seaosn, there is no reason they cannot still schedule 2 FCS schools that first year. Also playing the first year in FCS as an Independent when you don't count as an FBS means you have two years lead time to find opponents for the 2nd transition year, actually almost 3 years, and 3 to 4 years to find them for your first post season eligible year when you must have 11 FBS opponents.

It's obviously easier for a new league if you have 8 schools or even better 9 schools than 7, as more games are filled. But 7 can still work. Also remember you have 2+ years to get the first schedule together, and being ineligible for post season you can get away with a 2nd FCS opponent. Or worst case, you can have a few play each other twice with one not counting as a conference game (see NMSU and Liberty 2018 and 2019 schedule deal).

But while it would be difficult work to round up 30 opponents for these 6 moving up schools (joining NMSU who is already up), it can be done. The one advantage they have being in a league like the WAC, they would have the back 8 back end games of the schedule easily filled with 6 conference games, an FCS purchased opponent and a road kill revenue game against some P5 school (you may have to go cheaper to secure the spot, say $1.1M from some ACC or SEC school instead of $1.7M). Also there are still Independents like UMass, Liberty and BYU that would likely schedule one of them later in the year. That means you are just looking for 4 September OOC games like everyone else (another road kill game, and three G5 home and home series). So it's doable with 3 years of lead time.

My point is, this doesn't stop such a move. What will stop this from happening is money:

1. typically schools spend $40M or more to transition from FCS to FBS in upgrades
2. staffing upgrades (everyone gets a raise across the department! this is still killing Idaho in FCS as they pay staff FBS level)
3. playoff payout will be the bare minimum, as G5 wont part with their share, so into the Indy pool
4. no TV/Media value, so likely very low TV payout, somewhere between FCS (almost zero) and G5 (CUSA is around $1M or less per school)
5. Approval from regents, students where they get a say in fees, and genuine desire to move up
6. The WAC's existing members, who are basketball focused, don't play football, having 7 votes in favor of adding 6 football schools who will be getting most of the revenue, and taking NCAA Basketball share revenue away from them.

The reality is any moving up will be done one school at a time, and that makes this entire scenario of NoDak a masturbatory fantasy. As obstacles go in this right hand-male member-computer screen activity goes, scheduling is a pretty small one.
05-25-2018 03:34 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Online
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RE: Can FCS to FBS reclassifying teams count each other as FBS games? Source?
(05-25-2018 11:24 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 10:08 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(05-25-2018 09:44 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Georgia Southern and App State were both transitioning into the Sun Belt from FCS in 2014. Our game with App that season counted as an FBS game for both our schools and we were counted as FBS schools for the Sun Belt schools that played both of us. Am i misunderstanding the question?

Interesting. When we working on these issues earlier (I wasn't involved after Benson arrived) the NCAA was adamant that a transition couldn't count.

Well open up the NoDak David floodgates because GaSo sure as hell didn't play four full FBS members at home.

Yep. In 2014, we technically only played 2 full-fledged FBS teams at home.

I see three - Idaho, Troy, ULM. App st was transitioning too and then Savannah St

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-14/sun-b...hedule.php

You’re right. For some reason I thought Idaho was transitioning but they were just joining a new conference.
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