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Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
(05-22-2018 07:26 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 03:55 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  https://www.courthousenews.com/georgia-r...ee-border/

I have been following this off and on for several years. Here is an example of a Government body who has the means to get all the water they could ever want but would rather try and take land from another state because it is cheaper.

Georgia has access to the Atlantic Ocean. They just don't want to pony up the money for desalination.

There have been talks for sometime that WWIII will be over fresh water. It might be true.

Well it is actually Georgia's land. A surveyor error put it in Tennessee. Georgia has been protesting for 150 years.

[Image: bordermapartweb.jpg]

Quote:House sponsor Harry Geisinger, Dist. 48 from Roswell, GA, is among those who believe that Georgia access to the Tennessee River might ensure a full Lake Lanier and resolve the state’s water disputes with Alabama and Florida. Lake Lanier is the largest reservoir on the Apalachicola-Chattahoochee-Flint river system that nourishes Georgia, Florida and Alabama. For more than two decades the states have disagreed over rights to water needed for farms, homes, industries, recreation and oyster fisheries.

Geisinger said no one lives in the area where the Tennessee River flows out of Nickajack Dam at the rate of 24 billion gallons a day, 15 times greater than the volume released below Buford Dam on Lake Lanier. He cited environmental studies that indicate tapping the flow would have little to no effect on the river.

My understanding is that the original surveyors were too drunk/lazy to mark the actual border correctly (the proper border is on the dotted line in picture above. Link to Pic: http://www.lakesidenews.com/border-war-brewing). Back then, they figured it wouldn't really matter...hmmm...shows when you do not make the effort to do a job correctly, and/or if you figure that your effort is "good enough" and/or "won't make a difference" how that can come back to bite you (or others in the future)...and, of course, you then need to call the gub'ment out to fix a problem that never should have happened in he first place...sounds like the "progressive manifesto."

Seems the data shows that the Tennessee River has plenty enough water to help alleviate the current (and future)water situation in GA (and thus also with the disagreement with AL and FL) while leaving plenty available for TN as well, and that the border should be set correctly as originally intended. Tennessee might do best to consider itself lucky that GA doesn't press for damages from not having had proper access to its proper share of this river as it should have for 150 years.

from TIME Magazine article ( The (Water) War Between the States, Friday, Mar. 07, 2008)
Quote:But to Georgians, this is no laughing matter. The state doesn't really want those 150 sq. miles back (they were erroneously included in Tennessee by surveyors who were either drunk, afraid of Indians or using faulty equipment). Georgia, however, does want access to the water Tennessee law currently says cannot be transferred out of state.
05-23-2018 10:59 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
Quote:surveyors who were either drunk, afraid of Indians or using faulty equipment

Just like all surveyors AMIRITE?
05-23-2018 11:36 AM
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UofMTigerTim Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
(05-23-2018 10:59 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 07:26 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 03:55 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  https://www.courthousenews.com/georgia-r...ee-border/

I have been following this off and on for several years. Here is an example of a Government body who has the means to get all the water they could ever want but would rather try and take land from another state because it is cheaper.

Georgia has access to the Atlantic Ocean. They just don't want to pony up the money for desalination.

There have been talks for sometime that WWIII will be over fresh water. It might be true.

Well it is actually Georgia's land. A surveyor error put it in Tennessee. Georgia has been protesting for 150 years.

[Image: bordermapartweb.jpg]

Quote:House sponsor Harry Geisinger, Dist. 48 from Roswell, GA, is among those who believe that Georgia access to the Tennessee River might ensure a full Lake Lanier and resolve the state’s water disputes with Alabama and Florida. Lake Lanier is the largest reservoir on the Apalachicola-Chattahoochee-Flint river system that nourishes Georgia, Florida and Alabama. For more than two decades the states have disagreed over rights to water needed for farms, homes, industries, recreation and oyster fisheries.

Geisinger said no one lives in the area where the Tennessee River flows out of Nickajack Dam at the rate of 24 billion gallons a day, 15 times greater than the volume released below Buford Dam on Lake Lanier. He cited environmental studies that indicate tapping the flow would have little to no effect on the river.

My understanding is that the original surveyors were too drunk/lazy to mark the actual border correctly (the proper border is on the dotted line in picture above. Link to Pic: http://www.lakesidenews.com/border-war-brewing). Back then, they figured it wouldn't really matter...hmmm...shows when you do not make the effort to do a job correctly, and/or if you figure that your effort is "good enough" and/or "won't make a difference" how that can come back to bite you (or others in the future)...and, of course, you then need to call the gub'ment out to fix a problem that never should have happened in he first place...sounds like the "progressive manifesto."

Seems the data shows that the Tennessee River has plenty enough water to help alleviate the current (and future)water situation in GA (and thus also with the disagreement with AL and FL) while leaving plenty available for TN as well, and that the border should be set correctly as originally intended. Tennessee might do best to consider itself lucky that GA doesn't press for damages from not having had proper access to its proper share of this river as it should have for 150 years.

from TIME Magazine article ( The (Water) War Between the States, Friday, Mar. 07, 2008)
Quote:But to Georgians, this is no laughing matter. The state doesn't really want those 150 sq. miles back (they were erroneously included in Tennessee by surveyors who were either drunk, afraid of Indians or using faulty equipment). Georgia, however, does want access to the water Tennessee law currently says cannot be transferred out of state.

I disagree. Everyone said the Colorado river has plenty of water to service LA, San Diego etc... Have you checked the Colorado river lately? Not doing too well. Not to mention the Aral Sea.

Also the Supreme Court has precedent that borders of long standing do not get moved even if an error occurred in the surveying. The border between Tennessee and Georgia was set for over 50 years before Georgia brought up the issue. Lastly the TVA controls all the water that flows on the Tennessee river. So even if Georgia did get the border moved then they still have to get permission from the TVA to access the water.

https://ballotpedia.org/Virginia_v._Tennessee_(1893)
05-23-2018 11:43 AM
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Lush Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
(05-22-2018 09:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  The same could be done up north when tens of feet of snow fall. Melt the snow as it’s collected, and the disposal process becomes much more efficient.

i lived in an older country house with some friends years back and we had a cistern. it snowed real good one afternoon so i grabbed a bottle of wine and a shovel. my friends had boughten themselves a 700 gallon water tank to use for their landscape business which we used for our purposes as well. we'd put that tank on their work truck and i'd ride with em down to the whitewater river where there was a pump. they hated driving that truck with all that fluidity haulin' ass. it's the least i could do. f*ckin hated having to pony up my portion of the $50 water delivery
05-23-2018 12:18 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
It's worth pointing out there are two water disputes here.

The ACF dispute is between Georgia, Alabama, and Florida.

This dispute with Tennessee is separate although the position of Georgia arises from the same issue.
05-23-2018 12:18 PM
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BobcatEngineer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
(05-22-2018 09:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 09:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 07:05 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  My get rich plan requires a lot of money and work but in a nutshell, I think companies should form that follow super storms across the country and somehow capture and tank water that falls from these storms. They can then truck it around the country to areas that need the water the most, selling it for a decent profit.
I'm convinced storms will get more and more powerful as the climate extremes become more pronounced. In Hawaii earlier this year, one city broke Alvin's long-standing (1979) USA record of most rain to fall in a single (it was something like 44-45 inches?). Last year with Harvey, most of Houston received 30-40 inches of rain over a 3-4 day period. And even this year, Houston was starting to creep back into drought-like conditions after a pretty dry spring but on Monday, parts of north Houston got 5-6 inches of rain in the afternoon, and then over the past two days, my neighborhood has received 4 inches of rain.
When Houston flooded during the hurricanes, I thought it would make sense to have a fleet of several hundred tankers that could literally suction floodwater and truck it to a different area. They’d have to start where flooding wasn’t as bad and work their way towards worse flooding, but at least that would get some areas back to normal quickly, which makes it easier to facilitate cleanup of harder hit areas. Obviously you can’t suction nine trillion gallons of water with 11,600 gallon tankers, but making a few million gallons go away each day will greatly speed up the process.
The same could be done up north when tens of feet of snow fall. Melt the snow as it’s collected, and the disposal process becomes much more efficient.

It's a scale problem. You just couldn't get enough tankers to make a dent in the volume of water that came down. Plus you'd need some infrastructure to get the tankers loaded.

Right.

Assumptions:
*Fleet of 200, 11,600 gallon tanks
*Each tanker can fill and unload water 100 times a day (generous, IMO)
*Rainfall of 1-trillion gallons, or 1/9th of Hurricane Harvey

1,000,000,000,000 gallons / (11,600 gallons per truck x 200 trucks x 100 fills per day) =

~4310 days, or 11.8 years

Additional costs to consider would be the purification of the water as well as transportation costs. I'm sure hurricane flood waters would be rife with dangerous chemicals and organic waste.

Same goes with snow fall. You guys remember that massive snow pile Boston had stored a few years back? The one that didn't finally melt until July? It was strewn with trash and all sorts of other things I would not want in my drinking water.

If you're thinking about storing rain runoff, why not build a giant cistern a few hundred feet underground. I'm working on a Combined Sewer Overflow that does just that in Washington DC.

Since waste water treatment plants can only process a certain amount of sewage/storm runoff per day (big WWTPs are on the scale of 300 million gallons/day +), we build a giant underground tunnel hundreds of feet below the surface that can store the sewage/storm runoff. This gives the WWTP some time to catch up during heavy rainfall periods. Then again.... this is only good for waste water treatment. Getting the effluent to a standard acceptable for human consumption is another story.
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2018 02:29 PM by BobcatEngineer.)
05-23-2018 12:37 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
(05-22-2018 09:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 09:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(05-22-2018 07:05 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  My get rich plan requires a lot of money and work but in a nutshell, I think companies should form that follow super storms across the country and somehow capture and tank water that falls from these storms. They can then truck it around the country to areas that need the water the most, selling it for a decent profit.
I'm convinced storms will get more and more powerful as the climate extremes become more pronounced. In Hawaii earlier this year, one city broke Alvin's long-standing (1979) USA record of most rain to fall in a single (it was something like 44-45 inches?). Last year with Harvey, most of Houston received 30-40 inches of rain over a 3-4 day period. And even this year, Houston was starting to creep back into drought-like conditions after a pretty dry spring but on Monday, parts of north Houston got 5-6 inches of rain in the afternoon, and then over the past two days, my neighborhood has received 4 inches of rain.
When Houston flooded during the hurricanes, I thought it would make sense to have a fleet of several hundred tankers that could literally suction floodwater and truck it to a different area. They’d have to start where flooding wasn’t as bad and work their way towards worse flooding, but at least that would get some areas back to normal quickly, which makes it easier to facilitate cleanup of harder hit areas. Obviously you can’t suction nine trillion gallons of water with 11,600 gallon tankers, but making a few million gallons go away each day will greatly speed up the process.
The same could be done up north when tens of feet of snow fall. Melt the snow as it’s collected, and the disposal process becomes much more efficient.

It's a scale problem. You just couldn't get enough tankers to make a dent in the volume of water that came down. Plus you'd need some infrastructure to get the tankers loaded.

Hauling water is honestly about as inefficient as it gets. You don't haul anywhere near as much water as you think you do. The sheer size of a tanker shuttle to make an appreciable difference is unimaginable.

Whenever you are dealing with tankers you eventually get to the point where adding additional tankers creates diminishing returns. The choke points in any water shuttle is at the fill site, and not very often but sometimes the dump site. You can only fill a tanker so fast. So you eventually end up with a queue of empty tankers sitting at the fill site. The longer the evolution goes the longer the queue is going to get until eventually you have a complete breakdown of the shuttle operation. You can help prevent this with multiple fill points, but fill sites are labor intensive and eventually the multiple fill sites will lead to inefficiency at the dump site.




Not to mention the fact that it's going to be very difficult to decontaminate flood water to a point where it's usable as drinking water. Between organic contamination from the ground itself and overflows from storm and sanitary sewer systems you are also dealing with any number of levels of chemical contamination.
05-23-2018 02:22 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Georgia wants to move border north to get Tennessee water
Different topic...

Mississippi was/is suing Memphis (Memphis Light Gas & Water aka MLG&W) over water rights.

Water fight pits Mississippi v. Memphis in U.S. Supreme Court

Quote:Memphis is known far and wide for its greatest natural resource, plentiful water pumped from comparatively pristine underground pools known as the Memphis Sands Aquifer. The State of Mississippi sued Memphis and the municipally owned utility company, Memphis Light, Gas and Water as well as the State of Tennessee over the alleged pumping 140 million of gallons of water daily from the Memphis Sands Aquifer.

“Mississippi is claiming MLGW is pumping their water out from under them and providing water to residents of Shelby County; it’s a very novel theory,” Tennessee Attorney General Herbert H. Slatery, III said.

Quote:“Mississippi says they own the water in this aquifer that is basically underneath four states. But because (they say) they own it, they’re entitled to damages over 20 years, they estimate at $615 million dollars," Slatery said.

Mississippi’s lawsuit claims that MLGW pumps have sucked water across state lines and forcibly moved 252 billion gallons of Mississippi water into Memphis since 1985. Memphis, MLGW, and the State of Tennessee say the aquifer is an interstate resource.
05-23-2018 02:46 PM
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