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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #1
About vacating games and championships
I just came across an article where a man was arrested for posing as a 17 year old high school basketball player.

You just don't know how many cheaters and faux titles there were in the past. Before electronics and a number of things, this was very common.

That's why vacating titles and even games can be silly. Not saying it doesn't have any merit at all but it's better to punish those involved, such as the coaches and players (like maybe making players be on the hook to pay back their scholarships) rather than taking away games we all clearly saw.

Point shaving, by players or refs, is one thing but otherwise, what caused Louisville's title to be vacated was ridiculous. We don't know how many champions had similar cicumstances (answer: a ton), what they did had no direct impact on the games played and the fact is we don't know how much cheating has gone on over the decades, by whom and to what extent.

Again, in the case of Louisville, a simple asterisk suffices.
05-17-2018 07:31 PM
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-17-2018 07:31 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I just came across an article where a man was arrested for posing as a 17 year old high school basketball player.

You just don't know how many cheaters and faux titles there were in the past. Before electronics and a number of things, this was very common.

That's why vacating titles and even games can be silly. Not saying it doesn't have any merit at all but it's better to punish those involved, such as the coaches and players (like maybe making players be on the hook to pay back their scholarships) rather than taking away games we all clearly saw.

Point shaving, by players or refs, is one thing but otherwise, what caused Louisville's title to be vacated was ridiculous. We don't know how many champions had similar cicumstances (answer: a ton), what they did had no direct impact on the games played and the fact is we don't know how much cheating has gone on over the decades, by whom and to what extent.

Again, in the case of Louisville, a simple asterisk suffices.

The power of the NCAA rests with academic officials and thus it is fitting that something that is purely academic in nature, vacating wins is seen as a significant punishment
05-17-2018 11:09 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
It's beyond stupid. An asterisk gets the point across without insulting our intelligence. I wouldn't even want to brag about an accomplishment with an asterisk unless the charge was flimsy and contestable/debatable.
05-18-2018 12:21 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
Yeah, gotta watch out for those dreaded asterisks !!!, I saw one once in a darkened alley behind a few dumpsters that were full, you know the kind that hadn’t been emptyed in a long time and as I slowly strolled by I could see two extra shadows being eluminated by a burning trash can dancing against an old brick wall they looked like a couple of “question marks”!, i tryed to act as if I hadn’t seen them by pulling on the brim of my hat as if shielding my face from a pouring drizzle only it wasn’t drizzling , luckily they could not see the contents I was carrying in my London fog pocket a bag of “ cracker jacks ! “ that I had just purchased at the five and dime, I know that had asterisks and the two question marks known I was carrying an “apostrophe “ with my cracker jacks ! I would never make home alive *??!
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 04:40 AM by JHS55.)
05-18-2018 04:00 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.
05-18-2018 06:03 AM
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Rabbit_in_Red Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
The problem that I have, and where I think the NCAA would lose a court case is that the NCAA used Louisville's '13 Championship win in their marketing leading up to this season's Final Four and title game. This is to say that they're disallowing the University of Louisville to monetize it's own likeness in regards to the '13 Championship, but are doing so themselves for their own gain. Either they think it happened and is on the books, or not. If Louisville isn't permitted to say they are the 2013 NCAA National Champions, then why is the NCAA permitted to use that season and that victory in their own marketing campaigns? What's good for the goose, so to speak. I genuinely feel that, if challenged in court, that would never hold up and either the NCAA would be forced to alter future marketing campaigns or reinstate the title in some form (which would likely be the cheaper option for the NCAA).
05-18-2018 07:38 AM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
If vacating a title was meaningless, we probably wouldn't have people still starting threads about how it bothers them that the NCAA vacated Louisville's postseason.
05-18-2018 10:46 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 10:46 AM)Bogg Wrote:  If vacating a title was meaningless, we probably wouldn't have people still starting threads about how it bothers them that the NCAA vacated Louisville's postseason.

Yes. Truth is iy is the toughest thing the NCAA can do, which is why it prompts so much squealing.
05-18-2018 11:24 AM
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Rabbit_in_Red Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
It doesn't bother me so much that they did it, as a Louisville fan. Rules are rules, and we broke them. What bothers me is their hypocricy towards the vacated post season. THEY can use it in THEIR marketing campaign to benefit THEM, but WE cannot when it was OUR team. THAT is what's most upsetting about it. Either vacate the season and stop selling it, or don't. None of this middle of the road, "we can but you can't" crap.
05-18-2018 11:47 AM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

Yeah, you used that example in another thread. I replied that the proper connecting analogue to that is if a player/coach, etc... paid off the refs in the playoffs/championship round. The proper analogy for what happened at Louisville is if the casino/poker hall owner paid a really good player to come and play and provided him with all kinds of luxuries the other players didn't get.

In other words, unless the game was directly affected, it's not the same.
05-18-2018 01:10 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 10:46 AM)Bogg Wrote:  If vacating a title was meaningless, we probably wouldn't have people still starting threads about how it bothers them that the NCAA vacated Louisville's postseason.

I started the thread because of an article I saw. It added to my argument. You don't know how much cheating has happened over the decades, which doesn't make cheating okay going forward but the reasoning was stupid, especially for something not related to point shaving.
05-18-2018 01:18 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 01:10 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

Yeah, you used that example in another thread. I replied that the proper connecting analogue to that is if a player/coach, etc... paid off the refs in the playoffs/championship round. The proper analogy for what happened at Louisville is if the casino/poker hall owner paid a really good player to come and play and provided him with all kinds of luxuries the other players didn't get.

In other words, unless the game was directly affected, it's not the same.

... and just as i replied to that in another thread, you are confirming my original claim: Arguments that say "you can't re-write history" really just mean that you think the punishment, losing the title, is too harsh for the crime. Because if the crime is bad enough in your mind, like paying off refs, then you have no problem with re-writing history and stripping the title that "we all saw them win on the field".
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 01:34 PM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2018 01:30 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 11:47 AM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  It doesn't bother me so much that they did it, as a Louisville fan. Rules are rules, and we broke them. What bothers me is their hypocricy towards the vacated post season. THEY can use it in THEIR marketing campaign to benefit THEM, but WE cannot when it was OUR team. THAT is what's most upsetting about it. Either vacate the season and stop selling it, or don't. None of this middle of the road, "we can but you can't" crap.

To clarify, did they use UofL 2013 in the advertising after the final appeal was rejected and the vacating became final? Or did they only use it while UofL's appeal was still pending?

If the former, I agree that is bizarro. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 01:36 PM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2018 01:36 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 01:30 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 01:10 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

Yeah, you used that example in another thread. I replied that the proper connecting analogue to that is if a player/coach, etc... paid off the refs in the playoffs/championship round. The proper analogy for what happened at Louisville is if the casino/poker hall owner paid a really good player to come and play and provided him with all kinds of luxuries the other players didn't get.

In other words, unless the game was directly affected, it's not the same.

... and just as i replied to that in another thread, you are confirming my original claim: Arguments that say "you can't re-write history" really just mean that you think the punishment, losing the title, is too harsh for the crime. Because if the crime is bad enough in your mind, like paying off refs, then you have no problem with re-writing history and stripping the title that "we all saw them win on the field".

The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.
05-18-2018 02:14 PM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 02:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.

You're badly misunderstanding what a vacated title is. It's not the NCAA yelling loudly at everyone to ignore their lying eyes and insisting the game never happened despite what people are pretty sure they saw. What it is is the NCAA determining that an entrant assembled their team illegally and thus withdrawing their endorsement of the games involved.

Young men from the University of Louisville won a bunch of basketball games during the fall and spring semesters of the 2012-2013 academic year, nobody disputes that. However, because they were assembled outside of the established rules for NCAA competition, they don't get to claim NCAA-bestowed honors. It's not complicated.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 03:28 PM by Bogg.)
05-18-2018 03:27 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
If we're in the business of vacating victories, why not vacate losses as well?
05-18-2018 03:36 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 03:27 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 02:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.

You're badly misunderstanding what a vacated title is. It's not the NCAA yelling loudly at everyone to ignore their lying eyes and insisting the game never happened despite what people are pretty sure they saw. What it is is the NCAA determining that an entrant assembled their team illegally and thus withdrawing their endorsement of the games involved.

Young men from the University of Louisville won a bunch of basketball games during the fall and spring semesters of the 2012-2013 academic year, nobody disputes that. However, because they were assembled outside of the established rules for NCAA competition, they don't get to claim NCAA-bestowed honors. It's not complicated.

Exactly. It's no different than an Olympic athlete having a medal stripped because it was later determined that they competed under disqualifying conditions. They have to send it back to the IOC and they are no longer official Olympic medalists.

UofL won the title with ineligible/disqualified players, so the title gets returned and they are no longer official NCAA champs.

And it makes no sense to say "well you can only disqualify a player before he plays, not after the game happens", because then you are rewarding a player or team for effectively concealing its disqualifying actions, a perverse outcome.

Nothing weird about that and as you say, not complicated.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 03:39 PM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2018 03:37 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 03:27 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 02:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.

You're badly misunderstanding what a vacated title is. It's not the NCAA yelling loudly at everyone to ignore their lying eyes and insisting the game never happened despite what people are pretty sure they saw. What it is is the NCAA determining that an entrant assembled their team illegally and thus withdrawing their endorsement of the games involved.

Young men from the University of Louisville won a bunch of basketball games during the fall and spring semesters of the 2012-2013 academic year, nobody disputes that. However, because they were assembled outside of the established rules for NCAA competition, they don't get to claim NCAA-bestowed honors. It's not complicated.

It's still effectively pointless.

That and I haven't even touched how much the NCAA ignores other violators, which makes it that much worse. You don't know who else won fairly contested games and titles historically and in my opinion they have missed a ton, intentionally or not.
05-18-2018 04:01 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
(05-18-2018 04:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 03:27 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(05-18-2018 02:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.

You're badly misunderstanding what a vacated title is. It's not the NCAA yelling loudly at everyone to ignore their lying eyes and insisting the game never happened despite what people are pretty sure they saw. What it is is the NCAA determining that an entrant assembled their team illegally and thus withdrawing their endorsement of the games involved.

Young men from the University of Louisville won a bunch of basketball games during the fall and spring semesters of the 2012-2013 academic year, nobody disputes that. However, because they were assembled outside of the established rules for NCAA competition, they don't get to claim NCAA-bestowed honors. It's not complicated.

It's still effectively pointless.

That and I haven't even touched how much the NCAA ignores other violators, which makes it that much worse. You don't know who else won fairly contested games and titles historically and in my opinion they have missed a ton, intentionally or not.

First, it's not pointless, vacating hits a program in the worst place. You lose what all the other things - the recruiting, the coaching, the practice, the playing - are aiming towards, earning glory by winning a title.

And you might as well say it is unfair for a cop to ever pull anyone over speeding, because we all know other people were speeding and by chance didn't get caught.

I don't even know how to respond to that. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2018 04:06 PM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2018 04:04 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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RE: About vacating games and championships
Arguably the best Lacrosse Team of all time...vacated their 1990 title. The Syracuse coach's wife co-signed a used car loan for the Gait Brothers. They were Canadian and their parents couldn't sign and were in a bind. The NCAA came in and vacated the title and wanted the trophy back. We aren't even talking cash payments...just co-signing.

When the NCAA came for the trophy...It was never found LOL

05-18-2018 04:17 PM
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