(04-24-2018 12:27 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  K: 5 NCAA Championships
Cal: 1



Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

We may as well be trying to show the truth to the actual screen, for the good it will do. I think everyone can see the truth. And I'm not even anti-Cal or pro-K. Just like actual facts.

I'm done with him on this topic.

Yep, Stammers has always loved taking up the losing side of an argument and riding with it all the way into the ground. Reality 267 - Stammers 0.

(04-24-2018 03:04 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 03:02 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 02:30 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

Ok. Still that's only 4 in '18. Guess everyone has there own method, but like with Bolden, if he is a 1st rounder next season, to me unlikely, seems like you are counting him 3 times.

Basketball Insiders also released a mock today - http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-da...t-4-24-18/

Had Trent late in the 1st round, #28, so 3 from Duke in 1st round.

Allen averaged 21.6 points per game in 2016, but Coach K kept him and he played on both of the teams I listed, same with Bolden. Bolden was the #14 recruit in the nation.

Got it. I understand the thinking, but it does count the same person as a 1st rounder multiple times. Just never seen it done that way.

I think it is fair, given that almost none of Cal's elite recruits stay for more than one season. So you can look at Bolden and say that it isn't fair to include him twice, but he was the #14 recruit in the nation and he has averaged 1.5 and 3.9 points in his first two seasons and he was on both teams, a luxury that Cal doesn't have with most of his recruits.

It's not Cal's fault, nor is it Cal's fault that he is listed at #23 in the 2019 draft, so he is fair game for this particular thread. If he wasn't listed in the 2019 draft I wouldn't have counted him as a first rounder. Coach K gets the benefit of having most of his elite guys stay more than one year...another central point I made.

(04-24-2018 03:20 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 12:27 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

We may as well be trying to show the truth to the actual screen, for the good it will do. I think everyone can see the truth. And I'm not even anti-Cal or pro-K. Just like actual facts.

I'm done with him on this topic.

Yep, Stammers has always loved taking up the losing side of an argument and riding with it all the way into the ground. Reality 267 - Stammers 0.

Quote:This is reminding me of the Memphis vs Michigan St game now.

Cal 50
Izzo 20

You made possibly the most worst, most lopsided, most losingest post in the history of this board, so AGAIN, I am thrilled that you disagree with me. I got you so bent out of shape that you didn't even realize what you were posting.

Tiger87 spent every minute up to the last 2 weeks of Tubby's tenure going into hysterics about how Tubby was doing a GREAT job, anyone who questioned him in any way was an idiot and there was no way that Tubby would be fired. Now he sees fit to continue lecturing me on facts and common sense as he has with Tubby for the last two years.

Please both of you keep disagreeing with me.

268-0

(04-24-2018 03:26 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Tiger87 spent every minute up to the last 2 weeks of Tubby's tenure going into hysterics about how Tubby was doing a GREAT job, anyone who questioned him in any way was an idiot and there was no way that Tubby would be fired. Now he sees fit to continue lecturing me on facts and common sense as he has with Tubby for the last two years.

Please both of you keep disagreeing with me.

Your approach to this debate is totally wrong to anyone with a logical mindset. And you leave players off and add them at your whims. That's why I'm quitting showing numbers to you.

As for Tubby, you're again exaggerating. Go back and study my post history if you insist on stalking and categorizing me. I stated in January my agreement that the man had to go. I was one of the ones championing Penny in a big way. And I saw that there was a slim chance Tubby would be fired. So, to recap - wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Finally, I try not to call anyone an idiot here. (That's more your thing.) But I do get close occasionally...[be strong]...

(04-24-2018 03:55 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 03:26 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Tiger87 spent every minute up to the last 2 weeks of Tubby's tenure going into hysterics about how Tubby was doing a GREAT job, anyone who questioned him in any way was an idiot and there was no way that Tubby would be fired. Now he sees fit to continue lecturing me on facts and common sense as he has with Tubby for the last two years.

Please both of you keep disagreeing with me.

Your approach to this debate is totally wrong to anyone with a logical mindset. And you leave players off and add them at your whims. That's why I'm quitting showing numbers to you.

As for Tubby, you're again exaggerating. Go back and study my post history if you insist on stalking and categorizing me. I stated in January my agreement that the man had to go. I was one of the ones championing Penny in a big way. And I saw that there was a slim chance Tubby would be fired. So, to recap - wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Finally, I try not to call anyone an idiot here. (That's more your thing.) But I do get close occasionally...[be strong]...

He is confusing you with 1987, so once again wrong... 269-0

(04-24-2018 03:55 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 03:26 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Tiger87 spent every minute up to the last 2 weeks of Tubby's tenure going into hysterics about how Tubby was doing a GREAT job, anyone who questioned him in any way was an idiot and there was no way that Tubby would be fired. Now he sees fit to continue lecturing me on facts and common sense as he has with Tubby for the last two years.

Please both of you keep disagreeing with me.

Your approach to this debate is totally wrong to anyone with a logical mindset. And you leave players off and add them at your whims. That's why I'm quitting showing numbers to you.

As for Tubby, you're again exaggerating. Go back and study my post history if you insist on stalking and categorizing me. I stated in January my agreement that the man had to go. I was one of the ones championing Penny in a big way. And I saw that there was a slim chance Tubby would be fired. So, to recap - wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Finally, I try not to call anyone an idiot here. (That's more your thing.) But I do get close occasionally...[be strong]...

I'm not exaggerating at all, but since you bring up exaggeration...

You challenged a statement I made about Cal being the leader in getting one and done's drafted in the 1st round and used Tom Izzo, Leonard Hamilton, Steve Alford, Kevin Ollie and Ben Howland to try to argue. Coupled with your irrational love of Tubby, Thank God I disagree with your notion of the "facts." Tom Izzo was so easy to blow out of the water I didn't even bother with the others. Tom Izzo is ahead on 3 out of 4 metrics against Cal in your weird data without having a single one and done player in the last 18 years.

I listed every player when I gave my account of the facts. You called my facts irrelevant while you were including Mychal Mulder, the #14 juco and #171 recruit in the class as a supposed "elite" top 25 recruit in YOUR data. No wonder Kentucky doesn't look so hot if you are using examples like that.

So of course there is no reason to believe your fairy tales, which btw, don't include the names of any recruits, to back up whatever you are saying.