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quo vadis Offline
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NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-Autonomy ...
Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 11:30 AM by quo vadis.)
04-10-2018 11:26 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

Wow - those figures are even uglier than I imagined.

It seems to be a game of "Who loses the least amount of money?"

The Autonomy FBS schools (the P5) lose the least by far with about -$3.5 million median net revenue.

What's interesting is that the losses at both FCS schools and non-football Division I schools are about the same - around -$12 million median net revenue.

The Non-Autonomy FBS schools (the G5) are the ones that get hammered the most with around -$19 million median net revenue.
04-10-2018 11:58 AM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 11:58 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

Wow - those figures are even uglier than I imagined.

It seems to be a game of "Who loses the least amount of money?"

The Autonomy FBS schools (the P5) lose the least by far with about -$3.5 million median net revenue.

What's interesting is that the losses at both FCS schools and non-football Division I schools are about the same - around -$12 million median net revenue.

The Non-Autonomy FBS schools (the G5) are the ones that get hammered the most with around -$19 million median net revenue.

I dont find that difference surprising at all. Sounds about right. Its basically TV. Add a 20 million revenue stream to the median G5 school and you are very close to the median revenue of the autonomy schools. That 20 million doesnt even include the bigger CFP/bowl dollars that also flow into autonomy athletic departments. Dont know that there is much that could be done to fix that. Its interesting that moving to FCS doesnt save all that much money (its only a median savings of 8 million dollars saved). Pretty easy to see that the 8 million saved is probably more than offset by the much greater media/exposure footprint for the typical FBS school.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 12:31 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-10-2018 12:27 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
Median revenues/expenses for each sport are in Tables 4.9 (P5), 5.9 (G5), 6.9 (FCS), and 7.9 (D-I no-football).

No surprise that, even for the median P5 programs, expenses are way ahead of revenue for every sport except football and men's basketball. The median schools in every D-I category other than P5 are losing money on every sport including football and men's basketball.

Also noteworthy is how much more P5 schools spend on all non-revenue sports (i.e., all sports other than football or men's hoops) compared to other D-I schools. A couple of random examples:

Men's tennis
P5 median annual expenses: $827,000
G5: $377,000
FCS: $257,000
NF: $251,000

Women's volleyball
P5 median: $1,721,000
G5: $842,000
FCS: $589,000
NF: $724,000
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 12:30 PM by Wedge.)
04-10-2018 12:29 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-Autonomy ...
April Fool's Day was a week and a half ago.
04-10-2018 12:41 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 11:58 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

Wow - those figures are even uglier than I imagined.

It seems to be a game of "Who loses the least amount of money?"

The Autonomy FBS schools (the P5) lose the least by far with about -$3.5 million median net revenue.

What's interesting is that the losses at both FCS schools and non-football Division I schools are about the same - around -$12 million median net revenue.

The Non-Autonomy FBS schools (the G5) are the ones that get hammered the most with around -$19 million median net revenue.


Depends of which schools from the G5 and P5. Boise State sold more tickets than several ACC schools and Washington State. Throw in the tv revenue for football alone? The top G5 schools could suffer less loses than some of the lower end of the G5.
04-10-2018 12:52 PM
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McKinney Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

The full quote is:
Quote:This 2017 edition provides summary information concerning revenues and expenses of NCAA Division I and its three subdivisions for the 2004 through 2016 fiscal year (i.e., institutions' fiscal years that ended within those respective calendar years). In addition, since this edition is the first to report data for the two FBS segments, comparisons are not possible for prior years for those groupings.

I can see you could interpret that two ways. Either they are referring to Autonomy, Non-Autonomy, and FCS.... or they're referring to FBS, FCS, and Non-Football.
04-10-2018 12:57 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 12:27 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I dont find that difference surprising at all. Sounds about right. Its basically TV.

It's not just TV money. As we discussed in another thread, a team that is top-10 in attendance is probably making net profit of over $6 million from the game-day revenue of each home football game. A team that sells 10,000 tickets for each home basketball game is similarly rolling in more dough from ticket revenue alone than even the best TV deal provides. Athletic department donations are also much higher for most P5 programs.

TV money would only be enough to bring the very biggest-spending G5 programs level with the lowest-spending P5 programs. Look at the most recent USA Today table for examples. According to that table, Central Florida, Cincinnati, and Washington State all had "revenue" (in quotes because it includes university money and student fees, not just real revenue) of about $59 million for that year. The difference is that Wazzu's "revenue" includes $5 million in university funds, whereas Cincinnati's $59 million includes $25 million in university funds and UCF's includes $27 million of university money. The TV revenue difference among those three is about the same as the "subsidy" difference -- but again, this is comparing two of the G5's biggest spenders to the lowest-spending P5 program, who is $36 million below the median (33rd) P5 spender.

The P5 median athletic revenue, not counting subsidies, per USA Today, is about $90 million/year, and the G5 median not counting subsidies would be about $25 million.
04-10-2018 01:13 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 11:58 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

Wow - those figures are even uglier than I imagined.

It seems to be a game of "Who loses the least amount of money?"

The Autonomy FBS schools (the P5) lose the least by far with about -$3.5 million median net revenue.

What's interesting is that the losses at both FCS schools and non-football Division I schools are about the same - around -$12 million median net revenue.

The Non-Autonomy FBS schools (the G5) are the ones that get hammered the most with around -$19 million median net revenue.

That's because while the FCS and non-football D1 schools don't make money, they don't spend as much either.

But many FBS - Non Autonomy not only lack revenue, they are spending too much trying to keep up appearances for possible Autonomy invitation. They are lavishly spending money they don't have to put up a Potemkin Village for outside observers so they look "big time".
04-10-2018 01:36 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 12:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Men's tennis
P5 median annual expenses: $827,000
G5: $377,000
FCS: $257,000
NF: $251,000

Women's volleyball
P5 median: $1,721,000
G5: $842,000
FCS: $589,000
NF: $724,000

Good point, and what they show is that the G5 are actually much closer to the FCS/NF than to the P5 on these dimensions.
04-10-2018 01:37 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
Increased tv money would go a long way for a school like Memphis who is consistently near the top of G5 self generated rev (tix + contrib) along with being on the lower subsidy end (% wise). The next couple of USAToday yearly figures will look rough due to bball. However, in less than a month, the hiring of Penny netted over $1M in tix sales (folks coming back in the fold). If the Tigers could ever find their way to a bigger slice of some of that guaranteed money, they might have a punchers chance against some of the regional P5s. Or, they could just overspend. Lol, who knows?
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 03:12 PM by gulfcoastgal.)
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
Division I
1B = FBS (P5)
1A = FBS (G5)
1AA = FCS
1AAA = D1 Non FB

OR

Division I
FBS (P5) = Football Playoff Subdivision (FPS) -----> 1B
FBS (G5) = Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) -------> 1A
FCS = Football Championship Subdivision (FBS) --> 1AA
1AAA = D1 Non FB
04-10-2018 01:50 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 01:13 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 12:27 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I dont find that difference surprising at all. Sounds about right. Its basically TV.

It's not just TV money. As we discussed in another thread, a team that is top-10 in attendance is probably making net profit of over $6 million from the game-day revenue of each home football game. A team that sells 10,000 tickets for each home basketball game is similarly rolling in more dough from ticket revenue alone than even the best TV deal provides. Athletic department donations are also much higher for most P5 programs.

TV money would only be enough to bring the very biggest-spending G5 programs level with the lowest-spending P5 programs. Look at the most recent USA Today table for examples. According to that table, Central Florida, Cincinnati, and Washington State all had "revenue" (in quotes because it includes university money and student fees, not just real revenue) of about $59 million for that year. The difference is that Wazzu's "revenue" includes $5 million in university funds, whereas Cincinnati's $59 million includes $25 million in university funds and UCF's includes $27 million of university money. The TV revenue difference among those three is about the same as the "subsidy" difference -- but again, this is comparing two of the G5's biggest spenders to the lowest-spending P5 program, who is $36 million below the median (33rd) P5 spender.

The P5 median athletic revenue, not counting subsidies, per USA Today, is about $90 million/year, and the G5 median not counting subsidies would be about $25 million.

Not saying that. The G5's make less in house revenue and they spend accordingly. My point was simply that a 20 million dollar TV deal would make the median G5 school about break even---very similar to the P5's. Obviously the G5's generate less in house revenue---but they offset that by spending less.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 01:57 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-10-2018 01:56 PM
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 01:50 PM)joeben69 Wrote:  Division I
1B = FBS (P5)
1A = FBS (G5)
1AA = FCS
1AAA = D1 Non FB

OR

Division I
FBS (P5) = Football Playoff Subdivision (FPS) -----> 1B
FBS (G5) = Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) -------> 1A
FCS = Football Championship Subdivision (FBS) --> 1AA
1AAA = D1 Non FB

Either way--my money moves to following pro football. I have zero interest in a P5 only league or a G5 only league.
04-10-2018 02:00 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 02:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 01:50 PM)joeben69 Wrote:  Division I
1B = FBS (P5)
1A = FBS (G5)
1AA = FCS
1AAA = D1 Non FB

OR

Division I
FBS (P5) = Football Playoff Subdivision (FPS) -----> 1B
FBS (G5) = Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) -------> 1A
FCS = Football Championship Subdivision (FBS) --> 1AA
1AAA = D1 Non FB

Either way--my money moves to following pro football. I have zero interest in a P5 only league or a G5 only league.

FWIW, I've never seen college and NFL football in competition, i love to follow them both.

If the FBS - Autonomy leagues did separate, I'd still follow college football. I'd root for USF against whoever we were playing, and I'd still hold out hope we'd get invited to an Autonomy league.

I'm not sure all that much would change on the ground. Presumably, we'd still have one or two OOC games versus P5, just as P5 still play FCS, and the typical year would be us playing our AAC teams followed by a berth in the Birmingham Bowl, much as it does now.

But the meta-goal would still be exactly what it is now: Get an invite to a Power/Autonomy league.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 04:48 PM by quo vadis.)
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-Autonomy ...
Table 4.9 was very interesting. Among the autonomy schools hockey easily has the 3rd highest average revenue. Baseball is barely ahead of lacrosse for #4. After women's basketball with 709k, it was a big drop to women's hockey at 305k for #7. Most of the rest were bunched up between 100k and 289k (water polo was #8-but there were only 4 schools).
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 04:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 02:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 01:50 PM)joeben69 Wrote:  Division I
1B = FBS (P5)
1A = FBS (G5)
1AA = FCS
1AAA = D1 Non FB

OR

Division I
FBS (P5) = Football Playoff Subdivision (FPS) -----> 1B
FBS (G5) = Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) -------> 1A
FCS = Football Championship Subdivision (FBS) --> 1AA
1AAA = D1 Non FB

Either way--my money moves to following pro football. I have zero interest in a P5 only league or a G5 only league.

FWIW, I've never seen college and NFL football in competition, i love to follow them both.

If the FBS - Autonomy leagues did separate, I'd still follow college football. I'd root for USF against whoever we were playing, and I'd still hold out hope we'd get invited to an Autonomy league.

I'm not sure all that much would change on the ground. Presumably, we'd still have one or two OOC games versus P5, just as P5 still play FCS, and the typical year would be us playing our AAC teams followed by a berth in the Birmingham Bowl, much as it does now.

But the meta-goal would still be exactly what it is now: Get an invite to a Power/Autonomy league.


I grew up with SWC football. UH still playing in the top level of football is about the only tenuous remaining tie to that period. I spent some time at Sam Houston St during my journey toward a degree. During my time there--I went to a total of 2 games----and have been to just one Bearcat game since leaving that campus. I just have no interest in the lower levels of college football and even the highest level of college football is not appealing to me if I have no rooting interest.

Its happened before----I was a huge Oiler fan growing up as well. Had season tickets for years. When the Oilers left Houston I stopped watching the NFL. It wasnt some big FU to the league. I just wasnt interested anymore. I found plenty of other activities to fill my Sundays. If I dont have a rooting interest...Im just not interested. I suspect Im not the only person who is that way.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 05:15 PM by Attackcoog.)
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 01:36 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 11:58 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-10-2018 11:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Found this NCAA document promulgated last September (2017) interesting, especially for those who like to invoke NCAA administrative categories as the basis for football playoff systems. It states:

"The 2016 reporting consists of eight separate segments – one for each of the three
Division I subdivisions
and one for all Division I men’s and women’s basketball.
Important additions with this edition are separate groupings for the Autonomy
schools and the Non-Autonomy schools
."

Look at Sections 4 and 5 of the report, which address revenues/expenses for "FBS Autonomy" and "FBS Non-Autonomy" schools. Very telling, IMO:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...180123.pdf

Wow - those figures are even uglier than I imagined.

It seems to be a game of "Who loses the least amount of money?"

The Autonomy FBS schools (the P5) lose the least by far with about -$3.5 million median net revenue.

What's interesting is that the losses at both FCS schools and non-football Division I schools are about the same - around -$12 million median net revenue.

The Non-Autonomy FBS schools (the G5) are the ones that get hammered the most with around -$19 million median net revenue.

That's because while the FCS and non-football D1 schools don't make money, they don't spend as much either.

But many FBS - Non Autonomy not only lack revenue, they are spending too much trying to keep up appearances for possible Autonomy invitation. They are lavishly spending money they don't have to put up a Potemkin Village for outside observers so they look "big time".

I agree with you here but just wanted to note that if the NCAA wasn't bankrolling 70 million a year off of the tourney and instead was distributing all of it as tourney credits that it would assist a lot of the non autonomy schools and would be extra pocket change for the P5.
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 05:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  Table 4.9 was very interesting. Among the autonomy schools hockey easily has the 3rd highest average revenue. Baseball is barely ahead of lacrosse for #4. After women's basketball with 709k, it was a big drop to women's hockey at 305k for #7. Most of the rest were bunched up between 100k and 289k (water polo was #8-but there were only 4 schools).

Yes but ... how many schools have hockey? It's not really fair to compare the average revenue of 50 schools with hockey to 250 that have women's hoops, because i suspect that hockey's appeal is dichotomous - a school either loves it, in which case it has it, and revenue is high, or it has zero interest in it, in which case revenue would be zero if they had it.

So to be a fair comparison, we'd have to include those 200 schools that don't have hockey in our calculation of 'average revenue'.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2018 05:26 PM by quo vadis.)
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RE: NCAA Recognizes 3 Division I "subdivisions": FCS, FBS-Autonomy, FBS-Non-...
(04-10-2018 05:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  Table 4.9 was very interesting. Among the autonomy schools hockey easily has the 3rd highest average revenue. Baseball is barely ahead of lacrosse for #4. After women's basketball with 709k, it was a big drop to women's hockey at 305k for #7. Most of the rest were bunched up between 100k and 289k (water polo was #8-but there were only 4 schools).

That's because they can only average the schools playing that sport so the number of non profitable baseball programs drags the average down whereas hockey and lacrosse are fairly well contained and don't have fringe elements dragging them down.
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