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What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #41
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-08-2018 10:03 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Article from SI
https://www.si.com/vault/1990/07/09/1222...conference

Great article. Thanks for posting this.

Very visionary as well, especially this part -

And superconferences will generate more games, not fewer. By adopting divisional play—six, seven or eight teams to a division—the superconferences would be able to take advantage of a long-ignored NCAA bylaw that permits an extra game, beyond the annual limit of 11, to determine a conference championship. A logical subsequent step would be to take the four superconference champs and hold a national-championship playoff; this would involve two more postseason games. "The machinery would be in place," says Miami athletic director Sam Jankovich, who happens to oppose a national playoff. "It's closer than any of us realize. The bowl people are antsy as hell, and they have every reason to be." Concerns about how the extra games might interfere with young Joe Bob's preparation for final exams seem destined to be drowned out by the ring of cash registers.

Like most things, visionary thinking takes time to achieve simply because change is so hard. And who knows, by the time 16 team or 18 team power conferences become a reality a new vision of reverting back to 8 or 9 team conferences may arise that will then take 30 years to achieve from that point.

Also enjoyed this tidbit which I knew about but still find amusing:

Not to be outdone, the Big East, which now sponsors no competition in football, has been involved in low-level negotiations with the ACC. The Big East would like to know if its three members that play Division I-A football as independents, BC, Syracuse and Pitt, could join the ACC for that sport while remaining in the Big East for basketball. "It's logical," says the Big East athletic director. "The ACC needs to jazz up its football, and it would get great football coverage in New England. What the hell would it want with our basketball? It already has the world."


My guess is that was Chet Gladchuk at Boston College, who was also an Associate AD at Syracuse University for a couple years in the late 80s, prior to going to Tulane as AD for two years before getting the BC gig.

Cheers,
Neil
04-09-2018 02:23 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #42
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-08-2018 03:23 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-08-2018 02:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I'm inclined to think that if the ACC could not have Florida St the 4 schools that voted for them in the straw poll would have shifted their support to Miami. Spit 4-4 but feeling the pressure to make some move so they opt to bring in both.

This leaves the following football schools:

Big East: Pitt, BC
A-10: WVU, Rutgers, Temple
Metro: VT, S Car, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, USM, Tulane

Somewhere in there there is a conference. Not sure which conference banner or which or all or included.

It's all hypothetical, but I have to believe there was a reason why the straw vote of adding just one came down to FSU or SU. Realistically speaking, if they were thinking "football first" the original straw vote in our timeline would likely have been FSU or Miami. Which when one takes the time to think about, if football first was indeed the only criteria it should have been FSU and Miami. This tells me that they weren't making this strictly as a "football" add.

With FSU off the table in this hypothetical I think a straw vote that came down to Miami or SU would have resulted in a stalemate and no action just as an SU vote only would have resulted in no action. What I know of ACC history would seem to support this, but again, it is all theoretical, so you could be right.

Cheers,
Neil

But Neil, even in the FSU account, it mentions that Corrigan called Syracuse first:

At the annual ACC meetings on May 22 in Myrtle Beach, S.C., Florida State was mentioned for the first time. The discussions led Corrigan to schedule another meeting on July 25 at Sedgefield Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., in the exact room where the conference was formed in 1953.

Frustrated by the league's lack of focus on the expansion issue, Corrigan opted for a different approach at the Sedgefield meeting.

"I said, 'Let's make believe that we've agreed to expand. Each one of you has to write down a name of school,' " Corrigan recalled.

The secret ballot of member schools turned up four votes each for Syracuse and Florida State.

By the close of the four-hour meeting, Corrigan had permission from the ACC athletic directors to approach both schools to gauge interest. His first call was to Syracuse A.D. Jake Crouthamel. Crouthamel expressed interest, but because the Orangemen were charter members of the Big East, said the ACC would have to build a strong case. Corrigan, however, was not interested in wining and dining and told Crouthamel: "Just forget I called."

His call to Goin, however, yielded a different response.

"Bob said, 'Oh my goodness, I was hoping there was some interest [from] the ACC,'" Corrigan said.

Time and popular opinion, at least among FSU's decision-makers, were not on Goin's side and he expressed those concerns to Corrigan during the initial phone call.

Corrigan said that Goin had informed him that talks with Kramer and SEC officials were moving swiftly.

http://nolefan.org/summary/fsu_acc.html
04-09-2018 04:35 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #43
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 02:23 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-08-2018 10:03 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Article from SI
https://www.si.com/vault/1990/07/09/1222...conference

Great article. Thanks for posting this.

Very visionary as well, especially this part -

And superconferences will generate more games, not fewer. By adopting divisional play—six, seven or eight teams to a division—the superconferences would be able to take advantage of a long-ignored NCAA bylaw that permits an extra game, beyond the annual limit of 11, to determine a conference championship. A logical subsequent step would be to take the four superconference champs and hold a national-championship playoff; this would involve two more postseason games. "The machinery would be in place," says Miami athletic director Sam Jankovich, who happens to oppose a national playoff. "It's closer than any of us realize. The bowl people are antsy as hell, and they have every reason to be." Concerns about how the extra games might interfere with young Joe Bob's preparation for final exams seem destined to be drowned out by the ring of cash registers.

Like most things, visionary thinking takes time to achieve simply because change is so hard. And who knows, by the time 16 team or 18 team power conferences become a reality a new vision of reverting back to 8 or 9 team conferences may arise that will then take 30 years to achieve from that point.

Also enjoyed this tidbit which I knew about but still find amusing:

Not to be outdone, the Big East, which now sponsors no competition in football, has been involved in low-level negotiations with the ACC. The Big East would like to know if its three members that play Division I-A football as independents, BC, Syracuse and Pitt, could join the ACC for that sport while remaining in the Big East for basketball. "It's logical," says the Big East athletic director. "The ACC needs to jazz up its football, and it would get great football coverage in New England. What the hell would it want with our basketball? It already has the world."


My guess is that was Chet Gladchuk at Boston College, who was also an Associate AD at Syracuse University for a couple years in the late 80s, prior to going to Tulane as AD for two years before getting the BC gig.

Cheers,
Neil

So the next time a Big East guy claims the ACC destroyed his conference, can I tell him it was their idea?
04-09-2018 06:43 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #44
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 04:35 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(04-08-2018 03:23 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-08-2018 02:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I'm inclined to think that if the ACC could not have Florida St the 4 schools that voted for them in the straw poll would have shifted their support to Miami. Spit 4-4 but feeling the pressure to make some move so they opt to bring in both.

This leaves the following football schools:

Big East: Pitt, BC
A-10: WVU, Rutgers, Temple
Metro: VT, S Car, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, USM, Tulane

Somewhere in there there is a conference. Not sure which conference banner or which or all or included.

It's all hypothetical, but I have to believe there was a reason why the straw vote of adding just one came down to FSU or SU. Realistically speaking, if they were thinking "football first" the original straw vote in our timeline would likely have been FSU or Miami. Which when one takes the time to think about, if football first was indeed the only criteria it should have been FSU and Miami. This tells me that they weren't making this strictly as a "football" add.

With FSU off the table in this hypothetical I think a straw vote that came down to Miami or SU would have resulted in a stalemate and no action just as an SU vote only would have resulted in no action. What I know of ACC history would seem to support this, but again, it is all theoretical, so you could be right.

Cheers,
Neil

But Neil, even in the FSU account, it mentions that Corrigan called Syracuse first:

At the annual ACC meetings on May 22 in Myrtle Beach, S.C., Florida State was mentioned for the first time. The discussions led Corrigan to schedule another meeting on July 25 at Sedgefield Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., in the exact room where the conference was formed in 1953.

Frustrated by the league's lack of focus on the expansion issue, Corrigan opted for a different approach at the Sedgefield meeting.

"I said, 'Let's make believe that we've agreed to expand. Each one of you has to write down a name of school,' " Corrigan recalled.

The secret ballot of member schools turned up four votes each for Syracuse and Florida State.

By the close of the four-hour meeting, Corrigan had permission from the ACC athletic directors to approach both schools to gauge interest. His first call was to Syracuse A.D. Jake Crouthamel. Crouthamel expressed interest, but because the Orangemen were charter members of the Big East, said the ACC would have to build a strong case. Corrigan, however, was not interested in wining and dining and told Crouthamel: "Just forget I called."

His call to Goin, however, yielded a different response.

"Bob said, 'Oh my goodness, I was hoping there was some interest [from] the ACC,'" Corrigan said.

Time and popular opinion, at least among FSU's decision-makers, were not on Goin's side and he expressed those concerns to Corrigan during the initial phone call.

Corrigan said that Goin had informed him that talks with Kramer and SEC officials were moving swiftly.

http://nolefan.org/summary/fsu_acc.html

Hail X-Lance,

Not sure in regard to this specific post by me why you feel this particular aspect of what went down is pertinent since I don't think "who got called first" matters to my point. I am sure there is a reason, but I missed it.

Anyway, we have no idea why SU was called first, which could be for a variety of reasons - to telephone lines being busy, to meetings, to availability of Crouthamel and Goin, etc.

To me, the pertinent facts appeared to be as follows:

1) Corrigan wanted the ACC to expand for football purposes due to what was happening at the time in college athletics.

2) Frustrated by the ACC's "lack of focus" on possible expansion a straw vote took place orchestrated by Corrigan forcing the 8 ACC representatives to pick one (and only one) preferred choice for expansion which at some point results in a 4/4 tie between FSU and SU.

(Note A: I am sure several candidates were considered in the past - not just FSU and SU with FSU reportedly being mentioned for the first time in May of 1990 - a shocker really, perhaps revealing more about the ACC mindset at that time then lifelong ACC fans care to think about how that reflects on the conference.)

(Note B: Somehow, if expansion was to take place the discussion was limited to expansion by only one getting to 9, since no mention has ever been made about taking more than one at this time that I am aware of. It should also be mentioned that by this time the B1G had voted to add PSU to expand to 11, the PAC was already at 10, and the SEC had announced in May also that they were considering expansion to 12 - with the worse kept secret in modern expansion history of Arkansas definitely willing to accept an invite which they eventually did in August of 1990).

(Note C: Since we know other candidates had been considered for expansion in the past beyond FSU and SU, we have no idea how many straw votes took place, or if it indeed truly was the only vote - why discussion of this topic allowed for the final choice to be narrowed down to just FSU and SU).

3) Corrigan wanted that expansion of one to be FSU. We can deduce this by the fact that he was keen on expansion, frustrated by the lack of focus of ACC presidents, and of course, the great telephone story. After all, how serious was SU being considered if Corrigan would immediately in the same phone call tell SU to forget about his ever calling, especially without speaking to FSU and securing FSU assurances (or at very least ensuring their enthusiasm) first? 03-wink

(Note D: Of course Goin obviously gave those private assurances on the phone and in early August Bobby Bowden perhaps sent public assurances by telling the Atlantic Constitution - “I like to win games, and I can’t think of a tougher place to do that than the SEC.”)

(Note E: I doubt Corrigan was prepared for the fact that on September 12th, after already pleading the ACC's case to the FSU BoT, he would only initially succeed in getting three "Yes" votes for expansion from the ACC presidents - Clemson, GT, and UVa, with "No" votes from Duke and Maryland, and the remaining three North Carolina schools abstaining at first according to this linked article FSU - ACC or SEC?.)

05-stirthepot

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2018 07:06 AM by OrangeDude.)
04-09-2018 06:45 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #45
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 06:43 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 02:23 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-08-2018 10:03 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Article from SI
https://www.si.com/vault/1990/07/09/1222...conference

Great article. Thanks for posting this.

Very visionary as well, especially this part -

And superconferences will generate more games, not fewer. By adopting divisional play—six, seven or eight teams to a division—the superconferences would be able to take advantage of a long-ignored NCAA bylaw that permits an extra game, beyond the annual limit of 11, to determine a conference championship. A logical subsequent step would be to take the four superconference champs and hold a national-championship playoff; this would involve two more postseason games. "The machinery would be in place," says Miami athletic director Sam Jankovich, who happens to oppose a national playoff. "It's closer than any of us realize. The bowl people are antsy as hell, and they have every reason to be." Concerns about how the extra games might interfere with young Joe Bob's preparation for final exams seem destined to be drowned out by the ring of cash registers.

Like most things, visionary thinking takes time to achieve simply because change is so hard. And who knows, by the time 16 team or 18 team power conferences become a reality a new vision of reverting back to 8 or 9 team conferences may arise that will then take 30 years to achieve from that point.

Also enjoyed this tidbit which I knew about but still find amusing:

Not to be outdone, the Big East, which now sponsors no competition in football, has been involved in low-level negotiations with the ACC. The Big East would like to know if its three members that play Division I-A football as independents, BC, Syracuse and Pitt, could join the ACC for that sport while remaining in the Big East for basketball. "It's logical," says the Big East athletic director. "The ACC needs to jazz up its football, and it would get great football coverage in New England. What the hell would it want with our basketball? It already has the world."


My guess is that was Chet Gladchuk at Boston College, who was also an Associate AD at Syracuse University for a couple years in the late 80s, prior to going to Tulane as AD for two years before getting the BC gig.

Cheers,
Neil

So the next time a Big East guy claims the ACC destroyed his conference, can I tell him it was their idea?

LOL, you can, but I can tell you from personal experience it won't matter. 03-lmfao

Cheers,
Neil
04-09-2018 06:49 AM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #46
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.
04-09-2018 04:37 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #47
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

I thought Houston was bad back when Miami was good?
04-09-2018 05:54 PM
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Post: #48
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

Nope. In '91 the targets were Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Florida State, Clemson, and an unnamed friend of Texas which turned out to be Oklahoma. Houston and Miami were in the group we didn't pursue which also included Virginia Tech and West Virginia who both expressed interest.

Texas and A&M got bogged down with politics and Texas wanted to check out the PAC, so if they weren't going the silent partner had no interest either. Clemson talked but expressed only tepid interest. Florida State chose the ACC and South Carolina took Clemson's place and Arkansas had been all in from the get go.
04-09-2018 07:43 PM
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Post: #49
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.
04-09-2018 08:06 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 07:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

Nope. In '91 the targets were Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Florida State, Clemson, and an unnamed friend of Texas which turned out to be Oklahoma. Houston and Miami were in the group we didn't pursue which also included Virginia Tech and West Virginia who both expressed interest.

Texas and A&M got bogged down with politics and Texas wanted to check out the PAC, so if they weren't going the silent partner had no interest either. Clemson talked but expressed only tepid interest. Florida State chose the ACC and South Carolina took Clemson's place and Arkansas had been all in from the get go.

If the SEC added Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Clemson, Florida St, and Miami/Oklahoma in 1991 then heaven help the rest of college football.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2018 08:10 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
04-09-2018 08:08 PM
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Post: #51
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 07:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

Nope. In '91 the targets were Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Florida State, Clemson, and an unnamed friend of Texas which turned out to be Oklahoma. Houston and Miami were in the group we didn't pursue which also included Virginia Tech and West Virginia who both expressed interest.

Texas and A&M got bogged down with politics and Texas wanted to check out the PAC, so if they weren't going the silent partner had no interest either. Clemson talked but expressed only tepid interest. Florida State chose the ACC and South Carolina took Clemson's place and Arkansas had been all in from the get go.

If the SEC added Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Clemson, Florida St, and Miami/Oklahoma in 1991 then heaven help the rest of college football.

What Kramer did by getting Arkansas and South Carolina and going to divisions with a conference championship game was hailed as visionary and it was. But the grand plan would have been way beyond if he could have pulled it off. But there were too many moving pieces and everyone was too new at the game to really pull it off. But truly that would have been a "Super Conference".

I think the reasoning was you might as well try to get to your perfect 16 all at once, because waiting would mean other conferences would likely pick apart the four you waited on. There was also some sources both informational, and business related that had a vested interest in not seeing the SEC grow that way that we naively trusted. By 2010 the process had much more direct network influence in it than anything that occurred with the Big 10 or SEC in '90-92.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2018 08:17 PM by JRsec.)
04-09-2018 08:13 PM
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RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 07:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

Nope. In '91 the targets were Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Florida State, Clemson, and an unnamed friend of Texas which turned out to be Oklahoma. Houston and Miami were in the group we didn't pursue which also included Virginia Tech and West Virginia who both expressed interest.

Texas and A&M got bogged down with politics and Texas wanted to check out the PAC, so if they weren't going the silent partner had no interest either. Clemson talked but expressed only tepid interest. Florida State chose the ACC and South Carolina took Clemson's place and Arkansas had been all in from the get go.

If the SEC added Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Clemson, Florida St, and Miami/Oklahoma in 1991 then heaven help the rest of college football.

What Kramer did by getting Arkansas and South Carolina and going to divisions with a conference championship game was hailed as visionary and it was. But the grand plan would have been way beyond if he could have pulled it off. But there were too many moving pieces and everyone was too new at the game to really pull it off. But truly that would have been a "Super Conference".

Had the SEC been willing to swap Arkansas for Texas Tech to appease the Texas politicians do you think they could have pulled it off? Where does this leave everyone else?
04-09-2018 08:17 PM
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Post: #53
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 07:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 04:37 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  At one point Miami was suppose to go to the SEC with Houston.

Nope. In '91 the targets were Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Florida State, Clemson, and an unnamed friend of Texas which turned out to be Oklahoma. Houston and Miami were in the group we didn't pursue which also included Virginia Tech and West Virginia who both expressed interest.

Texas and A&M got bogged down with politics and Texas wanted to check out the PAC, so if they weren't going the silent partner had no interest either. Clemson talked but expressed only tepid interest. Florida State chose the ACC and South Carolina took Clemson's place and Arkansas had been all in from the get go.

If the SEC added Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas, Clemson, Florida St, and Miami/Oklahoma in 1991 then heaven help the rest of college football.

What Kramer did by getting Arkansas and South Carolina and going to divisions with a conference championship game was hailed as visionary and it was. But the grand plan would have been way beyond if he could have pulled it off. But there were too many moving pieces and everyone was too new at the game to really pull it off. But truly that would have been a "Super Conference".

Had the SEC been willing to swap Arkansas for Texas Tech to appease the Texas politicians do you think they could have pulled it off? Where does this leave everyone else?

No. Texas was shopping around and the internal politics were over Baylor and not Tech at that time. Baylor is the oldest institution of higher learning in Texas. The Bears would be viable today had they kept their reputation clean.
04-09-2018 08:21 PM
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Post: #54
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil
04-09-2018 08:25 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #55
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:25 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil

You are right about the genteel nature of the ACC circa 1990. You are also right that the Canes would have clashed with the decor of the ACC home. But, to a certain extent Syracuse was a better fit for the ACC in '92 than F.S.U. which didn't have the academics that Syracuse had, and which had a sports emphasis quite different from that of the core ACC.
04-09-2018 08:47 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #56
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:25 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil

That "turnover chain" has some folks wondering "what the heck did we do?"
04-09-2018 08:57 PM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
ACC would be perfect, it Notre Dame and PSU were added for football.

Atlantic
Boston College
Syracuse
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Notre Dame
Louisville
Virginia Tech
Miami

Costal
Virginia
Duke
Wake Forest
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State
04-09-2018 09:03 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #58
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:25 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil

That "turnover chain" has some folks wondering "what the heck did we do?"

LOL. +1000.

Cheers,
Neil
04-09-2018 09:56 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #59
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 08:47 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:25 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil

You are right about the genteel nature of the ACC circa 1990. You are also right that the Canes would have clashed with the decor of the ACC home. But, to a certain extent Syracuse was a better fit for the ACC in '92 than F.S.U. which didn't have the academics that Syracuse had, and which had a sports emphasis quite different from that of the core ACC.

I hope by sports emphasis you don't mean a basketball school. Syracuse at time was far more a football school than a basketball school. I realize we have stunk in football for a decade and a half now, but come on - at that time we were considered a Top 25 football program of all-time by most, though in a slump from the late 60s to mid 80s. It's why I have confidence with Dino Babers we might regain some of our former glory, if no realistic shot of returning to the high regard we were once held in. 03-wink

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2018 10:04 PM by OrangeDude.)
04-09-2018 10:03 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #60
RE: What would FSU look like had they joined the SEC in 91?
(04-09-2018 10:03 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:47 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:25 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(04-09-2018 08:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Going back to that Straw Poll held by the ACC again, let's say that the ACC doesn't hold that until after Florida St is committed to the SEC or when the ACC calls Florida St they say not interested. If Florida St is off the table then the schools who supported them would have likely backed Miami instead. The schools pushing for Florida St were the pro-expansion schools who wanted in Florida. (I have to think that 2 of the 4 Syracuse votes were from Duke and Maryland who really didn't want to expand at all). The fact that Miami got zero straw poll votes should not be indicative that they were unwanted in the ACC--simply that the schools looking to make a football improving move preferred Florida St over them. I also think the one making the phone calls, Corrigan, would have done everything he could to make a football motivated move. Look how easily he gave up after the Syracuse phone call. He clearly wasn't trying too hard to lure the Orange away.

I think we can almost be certain that if Florida St becomes an SEC school in 1991 then Miami most certainly becomes an ACC school.

The next question is what becomes of the 3 Big East schools. The Big East clearly was hoping for the best case scenario of an arranged FB affiliate relationship with the ACC so that they wouldn't lose them for basketball and wouldn't have to admit WVU, VT, Rutgers, Temple etc into their league either as affiliates or full members. Without Miami, Big East football is a lack luster league. At this point the ACC has the leverage and I think their response to the inquiry about football only membership for the trio is an emphatic No--all or nothing. In 1990 I don't know that those 3 are willing to give up UConn and the then Catholic 5. Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe they need another decade or so to mull it over. Your trade off is great basketball and convenient travel versus great basketball and a football home. Eventually I think the answer becomes the later but that's a decision best made sooner rather than later before the VT program grows and state politics thrust the Hokies upon the ACC.

Anything is possible, but I think this may be a case of perhaps you applying a current mindset of sports to a generation ago. The southern genteel attitude of the ACC at that time would have found Miami and their antics of that time anathema to their tight knit conference. Perhaps they would have held their noses and selected Miami, but if the more palatable FSU was almost sunk, it's hard to imagine Miami truly making it over the finish line at that time and with that grouping of ACC institutions. SU wasn't making it in either at that time, despite being the supposed second choice.

Cheers,
Neil

You are right about the genteel nature of the ACC circa 1990. You are also right that the Canes would have clashed with the decor of the ACC home. But, to a certain extent Syracuse was a better fit for the ACC in '92 than F.S.U. which didn't have the academics that Syracuse had, and which had a sports emphasis quite different from that of the core ACC.

I hope by sports emphasis you don't mean a basketball school. Syracuse at time was far more a football school than a basketball school. I realize we have stunk in football for a decade and a half now, but come on - at that time we were considered a Top 25 football program of all-time by most, though in a slump from the late 60s to mid 80s. It's why I have confidence with Dino Babers we might regain some of our former glory, if no realistic shot of returning to the high regard we were once held in. 03-wink

Cheers,
Neil

That's not what I meant at all. At the time you were AAU and still had a strong basketball program to go with your football team. Florida State was pretty much just football and baseball and their academic ranking was nowhere near that of Syracuse. By the way did you send a lovely tie to Pat Dye?
04-09-2018 11:08 PM
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