I would support pushing the Tommies out of the nest. They are nothing like a typical d3 school, which is usually 1000-3000 students and don't have a $400+ million endowment. UST total enrollment is around 10,000. They have more students than Drake, Bradley, Creighton, Valpo, or Tulsa.
At least go D2. The University of Mary in Bismarck has more guts; they're willing to fight it out with Mankato, St. Cloud, Duluth. The Univ of Sioux Falls has more guts- and have had success at d2 with their 1453 enrollment. The mighty Tommies enjoy rolling over the Cobbers of Concordia. Time to put on your big boy pants and take on institutions more like your own rather than picking on St. Mary's Winona.
(Apparently I have strong feelings about this.)
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2019 06:47 PM by MidWestMidMajor.)
You got to wonder why a lot of changes going on unless there could be some schools closing soon. St. Norbert is in Wisconsin which leaving to join NACC would be closer travels. Some of the schools in Midwest Conference are struggling with finances.
Might see a merger with SLIAC and Midwest Conference with a number of schools are in finances troubles to stay open.
This was already posted above.
(04-04-2019 04:51 PM) Wrote: Limestone College, currently a football affiliate, will become a full member of the South Atlantic Conference.
It's clear you don't read articles you link. This move has absolutely nothing to do with the possibility of schools closing soon. We don't have to "wonder why a lot of changes going on"; the article explains the rationale for the move.
Quote:"This move will cultivate natural rivalries for our teams, and it also aligns Limestone with schools that have similar philosophies," Limestone President Dr. Darrell Parker explained. "With the SAC, we will be competing against institutions that have the same priorities in the academic success of the students. The competitive levels of the schools we will be playing will closely match ours, and we are located more closely to the other SAC members. All of that equates to a better experience for our student-athletes. With the SAC having a pedigree that includes several national championships, our coaches are excited about the competition level that the new league will provide."
"The SAC is well-known as a very competitive league and there will be good competition for all of our teams," Limestone Vice President of Intercollegiate Athletics Mike Cerino said. "We believe that joining the SAC is the best opportunity for our student-athletes and coaches to compete for NCAA Division II Championships. The combination of the SAC geographic footprint and the institutional focus of the member schools offers each institution the opportunity to enhance the student-athlete experience."
"We're thrilled for our fans who will likely be much more acquainted with our SAC opponents," Cerino explained. "In this area, Saints supporters certainly know names like Newberry, Anderson, Catawba, Mars Hill and others. That will definitely lead to even greater attendance at our games. Joining the SAC in nearly all sports will also enable to Limestone to create some true rivalries that should get our student-athletes and our fans excited."
Can someone explain to me why school size affects athletic performance in D3? They are supposed to be athletic scholarship - free. And it's not like athletes are recruited from existing enrollment like in public high schools. Does it come down to facilities and higher coaching salaries that aren't part of D3 limitations? In other words, do better athletes go there because of better facilties and/or better coaches who are better at winning?
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-06-2019 07:00 PM)teamvsn Wrote: Can someone explain to me why school size affects athletic performance in D3? They are supposed to be athletic scholarship - free. And it's not like athletes are recruited from existing enrollment like in public high schools. Does it come down to facilities and higher coaching salaries that aren't part of D3 limitations? In other words, do better athletes go there because of better facilties and/or better coaches who are better at winning?
That would be my point of view. That the resources available to the high enrollment (& high endowment) schools tilt the "playing field" substantially
(having graduated from a small d3 that looks like junior high compared to Univ St. Thomas).
PS. I also have questions about just how "scholarship-free" some of these schools are. Do they have other forms of financial aid that tend to act like athletic scholarships? Are all of St. Thomas' athlete really paying $50,000 a year for the privilege to wear a purple UST uniform? My suspicion is that a coach puts a little check mark on the applications of the athletes they really want, and the financial aid office knows what to do...all technically within NCAA regulations.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-06-2019 08:44 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:
(04-06-2019 07:00 PM)teamvsn Wrote: Can someone explain to me why school size affects athletic performance in D3? They are supposed to be athletic scholarship - free. And it's not like athletes are recruited from existing enrollment like in public high schools. Does it come down to facilities and higher coaching salaries that aren't part of D3 limitations? In other words, do better athletes go there because of better facilties and/or better coaches who are better at winning?
That would be my point of view. That the resources available to the high enrollment (& high endowment) schools tilt the "playing field" substantially
(having graduated from a small d3 that looks like junior high compared to Univ St. Thomas).
PS. I also have questions about just how "scholarship-free" some of these schools are. Do they have other forms of financial aid that tend to act like athletic scholarships? Are all of St. Thomas' athlete really paying $50,000 a year for the privilege to wear a purple UST uniform? My suspicion is that a coach puts a little check mark on the applications of the athletes they really want, and the financial aid office knows what to do...all technically within NCAA regulations.
D3 rules are that athletes cannot have more scholarships than the student body at large. So certainly athletes get scholarships. But that's the case with any D3 school so it's not a St Thomas advantage. In fact, if their endowment is as low as suggested here, they probably have many fewer scholarships to work with than others. It's easy to believe that facilities would be an advantage, but dominance? Doubtful.
Seems more like they've got themselves a much better coach than the others in the conference. Looking at the records, they wen't from 2-8 to 7-3 in his first year. And only 2 years under 10 wins since then (2008). When this coach is hired away, things might settle down. Seems like a classic case of butt hurt from getting out coached.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-06-2019 09:00 PM)teamvsn Wrote: D3 rules are that athletes cannot have more scholarships than the student body at large. So certainly athletes get scholarships. But that's the case with any D3 school so it's not a St Thomas advantage. In fact, if their endowment is as low as suggested here, they probably have many fewer scholarships to work with than others. It's easy to believe that facilities would be an advantage, but dominance? Doubtful.
Seems more like they've got themselves a much better coach than the others in the conference. Looking at the records, they wen't from 2-8 to 7-3 in his first year. And only 2 years under 10 wins since then (2008). When this coach is hired away, things might settle down. Seems like a classic case of butt hurt from getting out coached.
Private schools don't have to release athletic department expenses. But I believe UST's dwarfs a school like St. Mary's Winona: money for coaching, money for recruiting, money for equipment, facilities, etc. I counted 135 guys on the football roster. Most are from the local area. But did the guys from Florida and Arizona buy their own bus tickets and take out loans for tuition room and board to wear a purple UST jersey? They had to drive by an awful lot of colleges before getting to St. Paul MN. Something had to make it worth their while. How many kids in Florida grow up dreaming of being a Tommie are are willing to pay $200,000 for that thrill. (UST's hockey roster is probably a better example.)
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
I saw a report a few years ago that showed that around 50% of all D3 schools had been accused of cheating on scholarships. Accused isn't the same as guilty, and it doesn't mean St Thomas is in this group. But where there's smoke there's fire. And if there's fire, the solution is to bring an enforcement action.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
Kalamazoo got busted for cheating on scholarships by secretly adding FCOAs to the athletes. Schools like them should not be D3, but D2. D2 schools are weighing in on if they will do FCOAs for their athletes as well. Especially the ones who are in D1 for some sports.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
Wow. This was posted on the d3 board.
As they used to sing on Sesame Street: One of these things is not like the other.
Alright UST, out of the kiddie pool.
I just did the math: UST 93, everyone else 103 (or average 8 per school)
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2019 06:41 AM by MidWestMidMajor.)
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-06-2019 09:38 PM)teamvsn Wrote: I saw a report a few years ago that showed that around 50% of all D3 schools had been accused of cheating on scholarships. Accused isn't the same as guilty, and it doesn't mean St Thomas is in this group. But where there's smoke there's fire. And if there's fire, the solution is to bring an enforcement action.
This is from the comment section on an article on the UST situation from the Minn. Star Tribune website:
"I have a niece who was recruited by several MIAC schools, including St. Thomas - above-average grades and test scores, but nothing spectacular. She narrowed her choices down to UST and a Division II school, where she had a full-ride offer. UST wanted her really badly, and an enormous financial aid package soon became part of the calculus. Interestingly, a niece on my wife's side of the family and with higher need and a lower EFC, and HIGHER test scores, was offered a package with less grant money. The only difference I could see? She wasn't a 6'2 post player who was a rebounding machine and could knock down the occasional 3."
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2019 11:09 PM by MidWestMidMajor.)
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-08-2019 11:03 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:
(04-06-2019 09:38 PM)teamvsn Wrote: I saw a report a few years ago that showed that around 50% of all D3 schools had been accused of cheating on scholarships. Accused isn't the same as guilty, and it doesn't mean St Thomas is in this group. But where there's smoke there's fire. And if there's fire, the solution is to bring an enforcement action.
This is from the comment section on an article on the UST situation from the Minn. Star Tribune website:
"I have a niece who was recruited by several MIAC schools, including St. Thomas - above-average grades and test scores, but nothing spectacular. She narrowed her choices down to UST and a Division II school, where she had a full-ride offer. UST wanted her really badly, and an enormous financial aid package soon became part of the calculus. Interestingly, a niece on my wife's side of the family and with higher need and a lower EFC, and HIGHER test scores, was offered a package with less grant money. The only difference I could see? She wasn't a 6'2 post player who was a rebounding machine and could knock down the occasional 3."
That's legal. The "why" of the scholarship doesn't matter. It could be for leadership potential. As long as scholarships to athletes don't exceed scholarships to the general population.
Your nieces experience is exactly how D3 works. And why it's hard to police.
RE: Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2018 and Beyond
(04-08-2019 11:03 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:
(04-06-2019 09:38 PM)teamvsn Wrote: I saw a report a few years ago that showed that around 50% of all D3 schools had been accused of cheating on scholarships. Accused isn't the same as guilty, and it doesn't mean St Thomas is in this group. But where there's smoke there's fire. And if there's fire, the solution is to bring an enforcement action.
This is from the comment section on an article on the UST situation from the Minn. Star Tribune website:
"I have a niece who was recruited by several MIAC schools, including St. Thomas - above-average grades and test scores, but nothing spectacular. She narrowed her choices down to UST and a Division II school, where she had a full-ride offer. UST wanted her really badly, and an enormous financial aid package soon became part of the calculus. Interestingly, a niece on my wife's side of the family and with higher need and a lower EFC, and HIGHER test scores, was offered a package with less grant money. The only difference I could see? She wasn't a 6'2 post player who was a rebounding machine and could knock down the occasional 3."
This happens. I have a cousin that ran track for an expensive D3 school. I asked him how he was going to pay for it and he said "They find ways to make it work." Basically they have a bunch of "academic" scholarships for athletes that they basically get college paid for. Maybe not in full, but definitely more than your average kid can expect.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2019 09:20 PM by Mav.)
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Conference Realignment for D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and USCAA 2020 and Beyond
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