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Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 07:46 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  In response to the first bolded statement, I agree with it, mostly. The ACC was never a powerhouse football conference throughout its history. Doesn't mean it won't be in the future. The pieces are now there with FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT, Louisville, and GT to get there.

I agree with this. I think that the ACC FrankenMonster is in excellent football shape, better than it ever has been.

Historically, from the 1950s through the 1980s, the ACC was pretty weak in football, with Maryland or Clemson occasionally having a nationally relevant team. Once FSU joined, FSU continued to be a national power, but the ACC was FSU and the 11 (or however many) dwarves.

But as you say, the pieces are now all in place, and we got a taste of that in 2016, when the ACC was the best football conference, maybe for the first time ever, with 9 bowl wins including the national title.

Even this past year, a disappointing bowl season masked what was still a good overall year for the ACC, with Clemson and Miami ranked in the top 10 all year, and VT and NC State also ranked. And that's a year when FSU was no good, which isn't likely to happen in the future much.

Beyond the top, though, the ACC's bottom has also improved. In my lifetime, i don't ever think that Wake, Duke, and UVA have ever been collectively better.

The ACC does have all the pieces in place to be one of the top 3 football conferences, sky is the limit.

The ACC is likely to be the MOST consistent Power conference in terms of being top 3 on the field/court in football and basketball over the next 10-15 years.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2018 08:30 AM by quo vadis.)
04-05-2018 08:25 AM
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3BNole Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Yeah, FSU joining the ACC definitely wasn't a mistake. In football we've won 3 NC's in that time, continued our rivalry with Miami and developed a strong rivalry with Clemson. Now that ND is regularly on the schedule we get to continue the bit of a rivalry we've developed there. Louisville and NCST are also always big games. In basketball, being in the ACC is an obvious boon. And baseball-wise, which is a huge sport here, the ACC is consistently 1 or 2.

Sure we could have more money in the SEC, but money only helps to a certain degree. At some point coaching and talent take over. I think overall we have a pretty good balance here. Since the time of the SEC network we've won a NC, been to another college football playoff, played in multiple NY6 games, routinely made the NCAA tourney in basketball, and made the CWS in baseball several times. Not sure extra money would have helped with any of those things.
04-05-2018 08:47 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 08:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 07:46 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  In response to the first bolded statement, I agree with it, mostly. The ACC was never a powerhouse football conference throughout its history. Doesn't mean it won't be in the future. The pieces are now there with FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT, Louisville, and GT to get there.

I agree with this. I think that the ACC FrankenMonster is in excellent football shape, better than it ever has been.

Historically, from the 1950s through the 1980s, the ACC was pretty weak in football, with Maryland or Clemson occasionally having a nationally relevant team. Once FSU joined, FSU continued to be a national power, but the ACC was FSU and the 11 (or however many) dwarves.

But as you say, the pieces are now all in place, and we got a taste of that in 2016, when the ACC was the best football conference, maybe for the first time ever, with 9 bowl wins including the national title.

Even this past year, a disappointing bowl season masked what was still a good overall year for the ACC, with Clemson and Miami ranked in the top 10 all year, and VT and NC State also ranked. And that's a year when FSU was no good, which isn't likely to happen in the future much.

Beyond the top, though, the ACC's bottom has also improved. In my lifetime, i don't ever think that Wake, Duke, and UVA have ever been collectively better.

The ACC does have all the pieces in place to be one of the top 3 football conferences, sky is the limit.

The ACC is likely to be the MOST consistent Power conference in terms of being top 3 on the field/court in football and basketball over the next 10-15 years.

You were ALMOST complimentary... but for the "Frankenmonster" name-calling. Look, no one I know is saying the ACC is the most well-blended conference or anything like that, but it isn't as bad a fit as you seem to think, nor is it just a bunch of Big East teams grafted onto the old ACC tree. There are historical linkages which go back much further.

Before the ACC was ever formed, all of it's founding members were in the Southern Conference -- PLUS Virginia Tech (and WVU for that matter). Prior to the SEC splitting off of that same source, all SEC and all ACC founding members were together -- and that included Georgia Tech.

Beside the ACC and Big East, there was the old Metro Conference. It's members included Georgia Tech, Florida State, Virginia Tech and Louisville.
04-05-2018 08:58 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.

Maybe, but I bet that as a lawyer you've seen a few "ironclad" contracts broken, or at least negotiated, in your day.

To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league.

What's saved the ACC so far is that those destination conferences haven't wanted those schools, so the ACC has been the default option.

But, if that changes ...

This raises the issue of money. In 2013, the ACC quieted Clemson and Miami and FSU with the promise of the ACCN. But if the ACCN doesn't pay off and the ACC starts to fall seriously behind in money, then those schools will become restless again. A lack of money could cause those schools that don't have deep-commitment to the ACC to actively seek to bolt.

If a school wants out of a GOR, it can probably get out. Will it have to pay, a lot? Probably, but if the money gets bad enough in the ACC, they will do it.
04-05-2018 09:02 AM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.

Maybe, but I bet that as a lawyer you've seen a few "ironclad" contracts broken, or at least negotiated, in your day.

To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league.

What's saved the ACC so far is that those destination conferences haven't wanted those schools, so the ACC has been the default option.

But, if that changes ...

This raises the issue of money. In 2013, the ACC quieted Clemson and Miami and FSU with the promise of the ACCN. But if the ACCN doesn't pay off and the ACC starts to fall seriously behind in money, then those schools will become restless again. A lack of money could cause those schools that don't have deep-commitment to the ACC to actively seek to bolt.

If a school wants out of a GOR, it can probably get out. Will it have to pay, a lot? Probably, but if the money gets bad enough in the ACC, they will do it.

This is an absolute NO!

Louisville is exactly where Louisville wanted to be. Maryland leaving The ACC was a dream come true for UofL. There has never been any movement in Louisville toward The Big Ten. SEC, maybe, Big Ten never.

I take from this comment that you have never visited Louisville. Louisville is too Southern to be in a Northern conference.
CJ
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2018 09:12 AM by CardinalJim.)
04-05-2018 09:12 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 08:58 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 08:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 07:46 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  In response to the first bolded statement, I agree with it, mostly. The ACC was never a powerhouse football conference throughout its history. Doesn't mean it won't be in the future. The pieces are now there with FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT, Louisville, and GT to get there.

I agree with this. I think that the ACC FrankenMonster is in excellent football shape, better than it ever has been.

Historically, from the 1950s through the 1980s, the ACC was pretty weak in football, with Maryland or Clemson occasionally having a nationally relevant team. Once FSU joined, FSU continued to be a national power, but the ACC was FSU and the 11 (or however many) dwarves.

But as you say, the pieces are now all in place, and we got a taste of that in 2016, when the ACC was the best football conference, maybe for the first time ever, with 9 bowl wins including the national title.

Even this past year, a disappointing bowl season masked what was still a good overall year for the ACC, with Clemson and Miami ranked in the top 10 all year, and VT and NC State also ranked. And that's a year when FSU was no good, which isn't likely to happen in the future much.

Beyond the top, though, the ACC's bottom has also improved. In my lifetime, i don't ever think that Wake, Duke, and UVA have ever been collectively better.

The ACC does have all the pieces in place to be one of the top 3 football conferences, sky is the limit.

The ACC is likely to be the MOST consistent Power conference in terms of being top 3 on the field/court in football and basketball over the next 10-15 years.

You were ALMOST complimentary... but for the "Frankenmonster" name-calling. Look, no one I know is saying the ACC is the most well-blended conference or anything like that, but it isn't as bad a fit as you seem to think, nor is it just a bunch of Big East teams grafted onto the old ACC tree. There are historical linkages which go back much further.

Before the ACC was ever formed, all of it's founding members were in the Southern Conference -- PLUS Virginia Tech (and WVU for that matter). Prior to the SEC splitting off of that same source, all SEC and all ACC founding members were together -- and that included Georgia Tech.

Beside the ACC and Big East, there was the old Metro Conference. It's members included Georgia Tech, Florida State, Virginia Tech and Louisville.

I remember the old metro conference, USF was a part of one iteration of it, we were in it with VT for a few years. It too was a frankenmonster, LOL. Though not much of a monster. It was 7-8 athletic programs that had one thing in common - we didn't fit anywhere else so needed each other. All over the southern map, rimming it, like the AAC is these days. That's not to say the hoops competition wasn't fun, it was.

The ACC is a grafted together monster. It's like that Star Trek movie, the first one that sucks, where they find out that the tiny probe from 20 years earlier is now this immense machine because it floated around the universe picking up pieces of things and adding them to itself. It's a productive of selective adaptation over the past 25 years, as the Carolina core has moved to appease the Football Gods, Television, and the constant pressure from the SEC to the south and the Big East (now B1G) to the north. It's one proactive move was to slay the Big East, which hemmed it in to the north.

You don't feel it so much because your school, VT, truly is at home in the ACC. You're part of that Carolina-Virginia core. It's where you have always felt you belonged - thank God for that governor who strong-armed the ACC into taking you.

But for the FSUs and BCs, the ACC is just a safe portage, a Power place for them to hang out in.

Like i said, in terms of competition, the ACC has never been stronger. Frankenstein was pretty damn strong! Had the PAC succeeded in taking all those Texas schools back in 2011, it would be a grafted monster, and damn strong too.

The ACC will regularly win national titles in hoops and football, heck it's already doing that. The other day we were talking about how the Big 12 hasn't won a hoops title in 10 years or a football title in 12 years. For the ACC, those 'streaks' of not winning are ... 1 year for both! It has all the pieces.

Even though they are welded together with bolts, bailing wire, and duck tape. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2018 09:17 AM by quo vadis.)
04-05-2018 09:13 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league. ..

You are obviously referring to what some fans want rather than what the school's administration wants. By that logic, Maryland and WVU both want to be in the ACC.

The fact is, if you're a fan you can't always get what you want... but if you try, sometimes you just might find you get what you need.
04-05-2018 09:16 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 09:12 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.

Maybe, but I bet that as a lawyer you've seen a few "ironclad" contracts broken, or at least negotiated, in your day.

To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league.

What's saved the ACC so far is that those destination conferences haven't wanted those schools, so the ACC has been the default option.

But, if that changes ...

This raises the issue of money. In 2013, the ACC quieted Clemson and Miami and FSU with the promise of the ACCN. But if the ACCN doesn't pay off and the ACC starts to fall seriously behind in money, then those schools will become restless again. A lack of money could cause those schools that don't have deep-commitment to the ACC to actively seek to bolt.

If a school wants out of a GOR, it can probably get out. Will it have to pay, a lot? Probably, but if the money gets bad enough in the ACC, they will do it.

This is an absolute NO!

Louisville is exactly where Louisville wanted to be. Maryland leaving The ACC was a dream come true for UofL. There has never been any movement in Louisville toward The Big Ten. SEC, maybe, Big Ten never.

I take from this comment that you have never visited Louisville. Louisville is too Southern to be in a Northern conference.
CJ

OK, replace "B1G" with "SEC". Are we good? 04-cheers
04-05-2018 09:19 AM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
TerryD [/quote]

I also think that this idea that "football schools" should leave the ACC and "turn the tables" on Tobacco Road is a controversy that exists in your mind more than in reality.

Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
[/quote]

+3 I agree with Terry on this. 07-coffee3
04-05-2018 10:29 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 09:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league. ..

You are obviously referring to what some fans want rather than what the school's administration wants. By that logic, Maryland and WVU both want to be in the ACC.

WVU definitely would prefer to be in the ACC than the Big 12. They'd prefer the SEC too.

Maryland is a tougher nut. On one hand, yes, there is a big contingent of Maryland supporters who, despite their many complaints about the ACC, see the ACC as its natural home and lament the move to the B1G.

On the other, there is also a large contingent of Maryland fans who see the B1G as a step up, and are glad to be rid of the "Caroline yoke".

It's a difficult issue that split the fan base, but that split is mild. The move didn't provoke big internal strife, so most fans seem to be OK with the move.
04-05-2018 11:37 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 11:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league. ..

You are obviously referring to what some fans want rather than what the school's administration wants. By that logic, Maryland and WVU both want to be in the ACC.

WVU definitely would prefer to be in the ACC than the Big 12. They'd prefer the SEC too.

Maryland is a tougher nut. On one hand, yes, there is a big contingent of Maryland supporters who, despite their many complaints about the ACC, see the ACC as its natural home and lament the move to the B1G.

On the other, there is also a large contingent of Maryland fans who see the B1G as a step up, and are glad to be rid of the "Caroline yoke".

It's a difficult issue that split the fan base, but that split is mild. The move didn't provoke big internal strife, so most fans seem to be OK with the move.

Quo, I would attribute the mild division over the Maryland move to the same factors that keep the ACC from being able to reach most of their potential viewers, sports apathy. So yes the move to the Big 10 is a step up of sorts from the more tenuous financial climate of the ACC. It's a wash academically. But there is also a burgeoning alumni base for the Big 10 in the Beltway states. So to those folks the split is between traditionalists and those who are part of a changing demographic. The fact that sports aren't a religion as they are in the Southeast and Southwest and parts of the Big 10 means where they play football and basketball "just means less" than it does elsewhere.
04-05-2018 11:59 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 11:59 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 11:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league. ..

You are obviously referring to what some fans want rather than what the school's administration wants. By that logic, Maryland and WVU both want to be in the ACC.

WVU definitely would prefer to be in the ACC than the Big 12. They'd prefer the SEC too.

Maryland is a tougher nut. On one hand, yes, there is a big contingent of Maryland supporters who, despite their many complaints about the ACC, see the ACC as its natural home and lament the move to the B1G.

On the other, there is also a large contingent of Maryland fans who see the B1G as a step up, and are glad to be rid of the "Caroline yoke".

It's a difficult issue that split the fan base, but that split is mild. The move didn't provoke big internal strife, so most fans seem to be OK with the move.

Quo, I would attribute the mild division over the Maryland move to the same factors that keep the ACC from being able to reach most of their potential viewers, sports apathy. So yes the move to the Big 10 is a step up of sorts from the more tenuous financial climate of the ACC. It's a wash academically. But there is also a burgeoning alumni base for the Big 10 in the Beltway states. So to those folks the split is between traditionalists and those who are part of a changing demographic. The fact that sports aren't a religion as they are in the Southeast and Southwest and parts of the Big 10 means where they play football and basketball "just means less" than it does elsewhere.

I'd agree in a general, overall sense - no question, Maryland has a milquetoast athletic culture compared to what we see in the SEC. Good point.

The one exception is hoops, they go crazy for their hoops the way an SEC school does for its football.

Well, almost. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2018 01:49 PM by quo vadis.)
04-05-2018 01:48 PM
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The Grassy Nole Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
In my perfect world, the ACC would add WVU and ND and realign for football into two familiar divisions:

Old ACC....Big East
FSU..........Miami
GT............Notre Dame
Clemson....Louisville
Wake........BC
NCST........WVU
UNC..........Syracuse
Duke.........Pitt
UVA..........VT

Otherwise I appreciate all the feedback on here for culturally aligned institutions, my two cents:

Miami is more NE than SEC minded, they are far from a SEC minded school. If offered one of two choices: Join the SEC and stay in a power conference, or join a reformed Big East (with NE schools) and become a non-power conference instead, I truly believe they would chose the Big East Option.

Clemson is more Tobacco Road than you believe, however they put more of a premium on football supposed to the tobacco schools

UVA - Duke - UNC is the true core of the ACC and they will never ever ever ever leave the conference for another. They will all go down with the ship too if necessary. Otherwise VT will align with UVA as will NCST and Wake will to their Carolina brethren so it wouldn't shock me to see these others sticking around too.

Louisville is a Basketball school however they are making great strides to be an "everything school" Their future is pretty bright however they need to get past their current much first

FSU & Clemson are both happy in the ACC, the only way I see either one of them to leave would be if they were forced to (ACC loses power status or no longer exists)
04-05-2018 03:00 PM
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DavidSt Online
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Post: #74
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Duke, Wake Forest and some other ACC like Notre Dame is the same type and fit for schools like Saint John's, Georgetown and Villanova. I could see them and Navy join the ACC in the future.
04-06-2018 04:18 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-05-2018 09:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 09:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-05-2018 05:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Nobody is leaving the ACC before 2036, despite the sentiments of fans on message boards.
To me, the ACC's biggest structural threat is that it is not the 'destination' conference for some of its members. At the least, Clemson and FSU would prefer to be in the SEC, and Syracuse and Louisville would rather be in the B1G. Only the Carolina-UVA core views the ACC as the destination league. ..

You are obviously referring to what some fans want rather than what the school's administration wants. By that logic, Maryland and WVU both want to be in the ACC.

The fact is, if you're a fan you can't always get what you want... but if you try, sometimes you just might find you get what you need.

Stones!
04-06-2018 04:39 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-06-2018 04:18 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Duke, Wake Forest and some other ACC like Notre Dame is the same type and fit for schools like Saint John's, Georgetown and Villanova. I could see them and Navy join the ACC in the future.

But would it be an ACC worth joining at that point? Honestly, the only way I see that happening is if the likes of FSU and Clemson and others have left the building.

Cheers,
Neil
04-06-2018 05:45 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Truthfully if the ACC were to ever expand the only real options are Notre Dame, WVU, Cincinnati, UConn, Rutgers, Maryland as all feature Football and Basketball. Navy could be an exception but David Robinson isn't coming back anytime soon. Big East has some great Basketball programs but You need more than just that to be considered for the B1G, ACC, SEC invites unless things change.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2018 08:33 AM by CardFan1.)
04-06-2018 08:31 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-06-2018 08:31 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Truthfully if the ACC were to ever expand the only real options are Notre Dame, WVU, Cincinnati, UConn, Rutgers, Maryland as all feature Football and Basketball. Navy could be an exception but David Robinson isn't coming back anytime soon. Big East has some great Basketball programs but You need more than just that to be considered for the B1G, ACC, SEC invites unless things change.

this, OR as JR keeps saying, the ACC could add 4 or more Big XII teams should that league perish (but the minimum is 4 due to geography).
04-06-2018 08:48 AM
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Post: #79
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
FSU fans or administration would rather be in the SEC? Surely not the administration because they chose the ACC over the SEC years ago. I’m sure the fans enjoyed their football titles in the 90’s before the rest of the conference caught up.

Louisville reminds me of FSU when they first joined the conference except swap football and basketball prowess. Remember, FSU had a darn good basketbal team the first couple years in the league, much like Louisville football. FSU previously made a Final Four and Louisville had prior football success as well. Both schools were in the Metro, etc.
04-06-2018 08:49 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-06-2018 08:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  FSU fans or administration would rather be in the SEC? Surely not the administration because they chose the ACC over the SEC years ago. I’m sure the fans enjoyed their football titles in the 90’s before the rest of the conference caught up.

Louisville reminds me of FSU when they first joined the conference except swap football and basketball prowess. Remember, FSU had a darn good basketbal team the first couple years in the league, much like Louisville football. FSU previously made a Final Four and Louisville had prior football success as well. Both schools were in the Metro, etc.

Well, in terms of football, I think many would say FSU came back to the pack a little, not that other programs in the league caught up to FSU - at least until Clemson caught up this decade. 03-wink

Cheers,
Neil
04-06-2018 09:36 AM
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