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Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
The OP was close but it’s really like this.

Big East Schools: Miami, Boston College, Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt (Former Big East Schools minus VT. Typically a bandwagon fan base and can have empty stadiums during down years, Louisville and ND could move from this list soon)
Elite Southern Schools: Wake Forest, Duke, Virginia, UNC, Georgia Tech (Your AAU schools plus Wake Forest, fan support can be low in football typically focus more on basketball).
SEC: Virginia Tech, Clemson, Florida State, NC State (these four would be a good core conference for football. Big fan support for football. Louisville could soon be in this bunch).

If the ACC wanted to be just football focus the conference would look like this:
Notre Dame
Louisville
Pitt
West Virginia
Virginia
Virginia Tech
NC State
UNC
ECU
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Florida State
UCF
Miami

If the conference was basketball only focus it would be:
Notre Dame
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Syracuse
UConn
West Virginia
Pitt
Villanova
Temple
Georgetown
Virginia
Wake Forest
NC State
UNC
Duke

Notice the NC/VA schools are what hold the conference together. They are the bridge for the Deep South schools and the Small Northern Schools. The ACC screwed up by not taking Penn State all those years ago. Their football culture would have fit in wel with the southern Schools
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2018 07:37 AM by Carolina_Low_Country.)
04-01-2018 07:30 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
JR, you make some excellent points which I'd like to comment on...

(04-01-2018 02:16 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Mark, it's an interesting development the way ESPN has helped to grow the ACC. They couldn't work around Tobacco Road for the greater good in 2010. But they have grown smaller groups that alone didn't threaten Chapel Hill power. With the football first schools in the South, and the Old Big East Schools in the North and Louisville as the wild card, Chapel Hill still thinks they are in control...
Honestly, I never thought about it that way, but you are probably correct. There's no doubt that the very by laws of the ACC are written to protect UNC/Duke/UVA etc.

Quote:...if the ACCN and the conference as a whole is to be healthy, and if adding Texas with a division would accomplish these ends, then the old core block needs to acquiesce. By adding Texas & enough friends to form a division which is more local for them, not only does the ACC, cobbled together as it is, get wealthier and healthier, but you also instantly become democratic. And that is the only way you'll ever hold the ego's of Notre Dame, North Carolina, and Texas in peace under 1 roof.
No doubt. It would've been ideal if the ACC could've expanded with only Eastern Time Zone teams, but that ship has sailed (see Penn State, Maryland and Rutgers), so a viable Texas-based division is the best solution going forward.

Quote:It's control by the old ACC core that has kept your conference in 5th place economically, just like it has been Texas that has kept its serfs in the field while they live in the Big House by refusing to grow the Big 12 beyond their own control.
FACT! There have been entire threads about how the old ACC core has blocked things which could/would have increased revenue dramatically - but at the expense of their control.

All that said, I think the UNC mafia has already lost control, they just don't know it. Duke certainly read the handwriting on the wall when Maryland jumped to the Big Ten, and I have my doubts that they would be willing to sacrifice the conference for their own interests when they know there is a danger that when the music stopped, Duke might be without a chair (sure, they MIGHT get into another conference, but it's far from a sure thing). Take that fear and multiply by 1000 in the case of Wake Forest - another vote lost.

Then, if it's a football vs. basketball decision, you can count on BC and Pitt to vote with the football teams (and probably Syracuse as well). I think the choice of Louisville instead of UConn proves that UNC/UVA no longer rule the ACC... JMO.
04-01-2018 08:25 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(03-31-2018 04:35 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  ACC guys correct me if I'm wrong but as I see it there are 3 types of ACC institutions:

The SEC schools: This group included Miami, Florida St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, and Louisville. These are football first schools ...

Whoa ... I stopped dead in my tracks right there. Regardless of how much they officially emphasize football these days, Louisville will always be in its heart a basketball-first school.
04-01-2018 08:40 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Um, the ACC considered all of the current members in the early 90's except Louisville and maybe Notre Dame. So you ESPN theorists are not correct. This iteration of the ACC has been in the works for some time, prior to ESPN involvement.

These days, the ACC is basically the East Coast version of the Pac 12 with better basketball and football. Sure, there are NC roots, but there are roots in every conference that evolved over the years. Two founding members are gone, but the SEC lost like three or four founding members, the Big 10 lost one, the Pac lost two, and the Big East and Big XII, well we know that story.
04-01-2018 08:54 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Gene Corrigan was pitching ND to the ACC a long time ago.
04-01-2018 08:59 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
NC State has two basketball titles and zero in football. Virginia Tech should have been an original ACC school, at least if the UNC mafia had its way. Clemson is an ACC school whether you guys like it or not. Florida State is really the only school that seems like an SEC school, and they've changed a lot since the early 90's.
04-01-2018 09:01 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 08:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  Um, the ACC considered all of the current members in the early 90's except Louisville and maybe Notre Dame. So you ESPN theorists are not correct. This iteration of the ACC has been in the works for some time, prior to ESPN involvement.

These days, the ACC is basically the East Coast version of the Pac 12 with better basketball and football. Sure, there are NC roots, but there are roots in every conference that evolved over the years. Two founding members are gone, but the SEC lost like three or four founding members, the Big 10 lost one, the Pac lost two, and the Big East and Big XII, well we know that story.

The PAC has only two outliers, so to speak, the recent Colorado and Utah additions.

All the other schools, even the two AZ schools, are culturally very similar and fit together like a glove. Go to the AZST or AZ campuses and culturally, they both look to southern California as their guiding light.

In contrast, the ACC really is a 3-headed hydra consisting of the Carolina-VA Core, the stolen northern Big East schools, and the mercenary Florida football schools. These three units have little culturally in common with each other and likely never will.

It's a patchwork of all the power-level schools east of the Mississippi that aren't in the B1G or SEC.

That said, that doesn't mean it can't be successful and thrive. IMO, it's doing just that.
04-01-2018 09:06 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.
04-01-2018 09:34 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 09:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.

I'm not a foreigner, I grew up in Bowie, Maryland, about 10 miles from the Maryland campus in College Park. This was in the 1970s and 1980s when the ACC was a real, tight-knit, culturally unified conference. Attended many Maryland ACC football and basketball games during that time.

So I know the difference between the real ACC and a modern Frankenstein agglomeration. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2018 09:46 AM by quo vadis.)
04-01-2018 09:45 AM
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Big Frog II Online
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Post: #30
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Many of these very large conferences are losing their identity. Rutgers and Nebraska in the same conference. Boston College and Florida State? None of this makes sense. They are no longer conferences but now a collection of schools.
04-01-2018 10:29 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Syracuse, Pitt, and BC are true old guard Big East schools. Cuse and BC were founding members, and Pitt was in long enough to be in all the Madison Square Garden tournaments until they departed.

Miami, not so much. They've already been in the ACC longer than they were in the Big East, and their presence in that league was every bit as much a made-for-TV arranged marriage, except without a true rival like the have with FSU in the ACC.

Notre Dame is sort of in the middle. They're not old guard, having joined in the Big East's 17th year of existence but staying in the league for 18 years. They fit in very well with the Catholic schools and the Big East schools who are now ACC, as well as with Rutgers and UConn.

Louisville was only in the Big East for eight years, plus a year in the AAC.

As has been stated, Virginia Tech fit the ACC far better than it ever did the Big East. They're close to Virginia and the NC schools and they share the football-first culture of Clemson, FSU, and Miami.
04-01-2018 10:42 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 09:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.

I'm not a foreigner, I grew up in Bowie, Maryland, about 10 miles from the Maryland campus in College Park. This was in the 1970s and 1980s when the ACC was a real, tight-knit, culturally unified conference. Attended many Maryland ACC football and basketball games during that time.

So I know the difference between the real ACC and a modern Frankenstein agglomeration. 07-coffee3

03-lmfao

I think the only time the ACC has been tight knit was the first few years after it split off from the SoCon. The time period you describe certainly wasn't "tight knit" as there were very deep divisions within the conference regarding membership, UNC's attempt to sabotage Clemson's football program, etc.
04-01-2018 11:17 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 11:17 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.

I'm not a foreigner, I grew up in Bowie, Maryland, about 10 miles from the Maryland campus in College Park. This was in the 1970s and 1980s when the ACC was a real, tight-knit, culturally unified conference. Attended many Maryland ACC football and basketball games during that time.

So I know the difference between the real ACC and a modern Frankenstein agglomeration. 07-coffee3

03-lmfao

I think the only time the ACC has been tight knit was the first few years after it split off from the SoCon. The time period you describe certainly wasn't "tight knit" as there were very deep divisions within the conference regarding membership, UNC's attempt to sabotage Clemson's football program, etc.

There's a difference between public and private divisions. The ACC had some internal strife - during the time period i mentioned there was a common belief at both Maryland and Virginia that the decision making structure of the ACC was run by North Carolina to their benefit.

But that was more like a family squabble, not reflective of fundamental misalignment. There's just no way to conjure BC and FSU, Syracuse and Georgia Tech, as culturally similar.
04-01-2018 11:30 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 11:30 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 11:17 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.

I'm not a foreigner, I grew up in Bowie, Maryland, about 10 miles from the Maryland campus in College Park. This was in the 1970s and 1980s when the ACC was a real, tight-knit, culturally unified conference. Attended many Maryland ACC football and basketball games during that time.

So I know the difference between the real ACC and a modern Frankenstein agglomeration. 07-coffee3

03-lmfao

I think the only time the ACC has been tight knit was the first few years after it split off from the SoCon. The time period you describe certainly wasn't "tight knit" as there were very deep divisions within the conference regarding membership, UNC's attempt to sabotage Clemson's football program, etc.

There's a difference between public and private divisions. The ACC had some internal strife - during the time period i mentioned there was a common belief at both Maryland and Virginia that the decision making structure of the ACC was run by North Carolina to their benefit.

But that was more like a family squabble, not reflective of fundamental misalignment. There's just no way to conjure BC and FSU, Syracuse and Georgia Tech, as culturally similar.

Yet you believe Stanford and Arizona State are culturally similar? Didn’t know Stanford had branch campuses and a large online program.
04-01-2018 12:38 PM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 10:29 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  Many of these very large conferences are losing their identity. Rutgers and Nebraska in the same conference. Boston College and Florida State? None of this makes sense. They are no longer conferences but now a collection of schools.

Agree. Like Texas Tech and WVU.
04-01-2018 03:16 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 12:38 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 11:30 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 11:17 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-01-2018 09:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  It's interesting to see how you foreigners have become such experts on ACC culture.

I'm not a foreigner, I grew up in Bowie, Maryland, about 10 miles from the Maryland campus in College Park. This was in the 1970s and 1980s when the ACC was a real, tight-knit, culturally unified conference. Attended many Maryland ACC football and basketball games during that time.

So I know the difference between the real ACC and a modern Frankenstein agglomeration. 07-coffee3

03-lmfao

I think the only time the ACC has been tight knit was the first few years after it split off from the SoCon. The time period you describe certainly wasn't "tight knit" as there were very deep divisions within the conference regarding membership, UNC's attempt to sabotage Clemson's football program, etc.

There's a difference between public and private divisions. The ACC had some internal strife - during the time period i mentioned there was a common belief at both Maryland and Virginia that the decision making structure of the ACC was run by North Carolina to their benefit.

But that was more like a family squabble, not reflective of fundamental misalignment. There's just no way to conjure BC and FSU, Syracuse and Georgia Tech, as culturally similar.

Yet you believe Stanford and Arizona State are culturally similar? Didn’t know Stanford had branch campuses and a large online program.

That's not the issue. Despite the 750 miles between them and much different climates, AZST and Stanford both have the culture and attitude of a Western mindset.

BC and FSU might as well be on different planets.

The ACC is a quilt of many disparate colors. 07-coffee3
04-01-2018 03:34 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
(04-01-2018 03:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  That's not the issue. Despite the 750 miles between them and much different climates, AZST and Stanford both have the culture and attitude of a Western mindset.

What is the "culture and attitude of the Western mindset"? Wouldn't the different demographics (notably the Bay Area's Asian population and Phoenix's Native American population), climate, and economy (while multiple technology/communications companies have established locations in Phoenix, the Bay Area is the undisputed capital of tech in the United States and possibly the world) all produce different cultures?
04-01-2018 04:10 PM
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3BNole Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
I think a lot of people are missing the identity of the ACC. The identity of the conference is its diversity. Just how the diverse nature of the U.S. is part of its diversity, the diversity of its institutions is the ACC's. You can argue that there was a time 30+ years ago that the ACC was basically a Piedmont conference, but even then you had Maryland. For its entire existence the ACC has had large urban state schools, nationally known private schools, land grant universities, etc. It's always been diverse like that. Sure, some of the members have changed over time, but the diversity remains. As mentioned before, there have been periods of disagreement between members in the past, but that happens in most conferences. As an FSU alumnus in Tallahassee who has season tickets to the big 3 sports, I can say that the vast majority of our fans enjoy the diversity of institutions in the conference and overall I'd say that our fan bases get along very well.
04-01-2018 04:58 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Institutionally, the ACC schools are more similar than people would like to admit. Now, if this is a discussion about Boston vs. Tallahassee cultural locale, it wasn’t mentioned in the title of the thread.
04-01-2018 05:02 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Institutional and Sports culture in the ACC
Pitt is a football-first school that would most likely vote with VT, Miami, FSU, GT, and Clemson on athletic matters. However, basketball is still important to Pitt, but it is priority 1b. Although Pitt would vote every chance it had to move the basketball tournament to New York, there is no Big East clique for Pitt. It has no particular ties to BC that would influence it over any other member.

Culturally, Miami is a northern school located in the south. It wouldn't fit in the SEC well. There's a reason Miami wanted BC and Syracuse, and not Virginia Tech, to move with it to the ACC in 2003.

But institutionally, absolutely I agree with the above, most ACC schools are more similar than most people realize. This isn't about fan perception, but institutional realities. Pitt and Miami are absolutely better fits in the ACC than any other power conference.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2018 09:26 PM by CrazyPaco.)
04-01-2018 09:08 PM
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