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Top academic schools outside of the AAU
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Top academic schools outside of the AAU
Does anyone know who the top ten or so schools are in academic rank that fall outside of the AAU consortium?
03-24-2018 08:26 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
What do you mean by "academic rank"? These are the indicators that UMass has used since the 2001 (I believe) to assess itself against AAU members.

Quote:Total enrollment
Graduate enrollment
Graduate enrollment as % of total enrollment
Science & engineering post-doctoral enrollment
Number of doctoral degrees awarded in one year
Number of academic (non-professional) doctoral degrees awarded in one year
Number of professional doctoral degrees awarded in one year
Number of doctoral level programs
Number of academic (non-professional) doctoral level programs
Number of professional doctoral level programs
Number of programs rated in the National Research Councils Assessment of Research Doctorate Programs in the United States
Number of programs rated among the top 20 based on the basis of faculty quality in the NRCs Assessment
Number of programs rated among the top 20 based on one or more dimensions in the NRCs Assessment
Total research and development expenditures for a given year
Federal research and development expenditures for a given year
Memberships in national academies
Number of faculty awarded Guggenheim grants in a given three-year period
Number of faculty receiving Presidential Young Investigator Awards within a four-year period
Number of faculty receiving Fulbright Awards in a given three-year period
Number of volumes in library
Number of current serial subscriptions in the library for a given year
Total operating expenditures in the library for a given year
Market value of endowment
Average salary of full professors

If you mean by US News rank or something I can try to get you something.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2018 08:43 PM by McKinney.)
03-24-2018 08:34 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
I guess total research dollars since that is one of the biggest things the AAU looks at
03-24-2018 08:40 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
This article lists some. https://www.chronicle.com/article/As-AAU...h-to/65200

Boston U
LSU
Georgia
Cincinnati
Dartmouth
NC State
Miami
Colorado St

Presumably Nebraska gets a look if it adds back the Medical School. Syracuse if it upgrades sciences.
03-24-2018 08:46 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-24-2018 08:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  This article lists some. https://www.chronicle.com/article/As-AAU...h-to/65200

Boston U
LSU
Georgia
Cincinnati
Dartmouth
NC State
Miami
Colorado St

Presumably Nebraska gets a look if it adds back the Medical School. Syracuse if it upgrades sciences.

Boston U became AAU in 2012, after this article was written.
03-24-2018 08:48 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
AAU universities: https://www.aau.edu/who-we-are/our-members

There are a few publications that rank universities by research strength. One is Academic Ranking of World Universities.

Among ARWU's worldwide top 100 universities, it looks like there is only one non-AAU U.S. university that is eligible for AAU (IIRC graduate-school only universities such as UC San Francisco are not invited to AAU) that is not already in AAU: UC Santa Cruz, which is #98 in ARWU.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2018 09:00 PM by Wedge.)
03-24-2018 08:59 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
Do you mean to ask in terms of research or undergraduate education or graduate education? Some very highly rated schools for undergraduate work (you would not turn away a grad from Cooper Union, Vasser or Marquette) do little or no research.

The AAU is a research focused membership organization and only measure that category. The exact formula they use, and then the politics within, are heard to exactly measure. But if you are looking at "raw" research numbers, not a per research fellow, here are the top ones from the HERD report (not counting medical centers):

PHP Code:
School                                      Rank Percentile   R&D Spending
University of Alabama at Birmingham
The     42     5.5    $537,825,000
Virginia Polytechnic Institute 
and State U.  43     5.6    $521,773,000
Arizona State University                     44     5.7    
$518,239,000
University of South Florida
Tampa           46     6.0    $505,965,000
North Carolina State University              47     6.1    
$489,918,000
University of Cincinnati                     52     6.6    
$430,579,000
University of Georgia                        54     6.8    
$410,345,000
Boston University                            57     7.2    
$395,921,000
University of Miami                          62     7.7    
$358,441,000
University of Utah
The                      63     7.8    $350,212,000
University of Kentucky                       64     7.9    
$349,661,000
University of Illinois at Chicago            68     8.4    
$337,296,000
Washington State University                  70     8.6    
$334,082,000
Colorado State University
Fort Collins      71     8.7    $331,862,000
SUNY
Polytechnic Institute                  75     9.1    $316,680,000
University of Hawaii at Manoa                77     9.4    
$304,476,000
University of Nebraska
-Lincoln               80     9.7    $294,856,000
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge      81     9.8    $291,972,000
Florida State University                     82     9.9    
$268,288,000
University of Connecticut                    83    10.0    
$265,522,000
University of Oklahoma
The                  85    10.2    $259,998,000
Oregon State University                      87    10.5    
$254,275,000 

If you are just look at research level, then R1 Carnegie is useful. Some smaller schools with high ratios and thus could possibly qualify for AAU wont show up on this list. For selectivity, the Forbes and US&WR type lists will provide that (their rankings are primarily a reflection of admission selectivity and "peer rankings", i.e., prestige).
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2018 09:27 PM by Stugray2.)
03-24-2018 09:04 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
By the 2018 USNR National Rankings.

1. Dartmouth College
2. University of Notre Dame
3. Georgetown University
4. Wake Forest University
5. Tufts University
6. Boston College
7. College of William and Mary
8. Northeastern University
9. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
10. Lehigh University
03-24-2018 09:17 PM
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
There was a document that came out in FOI when Nebraska got kicked out. It ranked the schools based on the AAU's criteria. Syracuse who left on their own was apparently ranked #105. Nebraska was #109. The next two lowest (no names given) were #94 and #87.

There were 27 schools who are not now members of the AAU ranked 86 or higher. Now some of these are specialty schools or only medical schools and not eligible. Others like UAB and Cincinnati are high because of their attached highly regarded medical schools. But here are the schools and their rank:

1. Rockefeller University
2. UC-San Francisco
31. Yeshiva University
37. Dartmouth University
40. Alabama-Birmingham
43. Tufts University
49. Utah
52. UC-Santa Cruz
55. RPI
57. Wake Forest
59. Miami-FL
61. Illinois-Chicago
62. Cincinnati
64. Colorado St.
67. Oregon St.
68. George Washington University
72. Wayne St.
73. UC-Riverside
76. Alaska-Fairbanks
78. Virginia Commonwealth University
79. Vermont
79. Hawaii
81. Connecticut
83. Georgetown University
83. Delaware
86. SUNY-Albany
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2018 09:28 PM by bullet.)
03-24-2018 09:23 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-24-2018 09:04 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But if you are looking at "raw" research numbers, not a per research fellow

Don't think AAU or any usable research ranking would do that. Those numbers are meaningless unless you look at it on a per-research group basis, and whether that money is from competitive research grants or just from the university financing research out of its own funds. Most of those schools you list say they are spending more in "raw dollars" than Caltech, but that doesn't mean they can compare to Caltech as a research university.
03-24-2018 09:26 PM
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
If things haven't changed and the AAU suddenly decided to invite 10 new members, my guess is that they would be
Dartmouth
Utah
UC-Santa Cruz
RPI
Wake Forest
Miami-FL
Illinois-Chicago
Colorado St.
Oregon St.
George Washington

Now GW might be mostly medical school, so it might be UC-Riverside in such a theoretical expansion.
03-24-2018 09:28 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-24-2018 09:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-24-2018 09:04 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But if you are looking at "raw" research numbers, not a per research fellow

Don't think AAU or any usable research ranking would do that. Those numbers are meaningless unless you look at it on a per-research group basis, and whether that money is from competitive research grants or just from the university financing research out of its own funds. Most of those schools you list say they are spending more in "raw dollars" than Caltech, but that doesn't mean they can compare to Caltech as a research university.

But such numbers are not available. US Government has HERD, which is all research. It is no shock that the top 37 in raw R&D HERD ranking (removing the Med Centers) are all AAU, and 58 of the 65 fall in the top 10 percentile of raw R&D.

In short, while we don't have the breakdown of competitive and per peer group, the schools that get most of the money are the same schools who win most of the competitive grants. It kind of makes sense. If you are doing a lot of research in an area, and spending a lot of money already, it's much easier to apply for and compete for a grant, as you have everything set up already.
03-24-2018 09:34 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
BTW Cal Tech is 60th, at $371M in R&D. They are a very big school in research, and so is MIT.

Contextually the question was posed in terms of the AAU. Some not particularly selective admissions schools are in the AAU. UofA, UO, CU, KU, ISU and Iowa are not going to be mistaken for highly selective and loaded with top student schools like Dartmouth, Georgetown, ND or BC.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2018 02:12 AM by Stugray2.)
03-24-2018 09:47 PM
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GiveEmTheAxe Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-24-2018 09:28 PM)bullet Wrote:  If things haven't changed and the AAU suddenly decided to invite 10 new members, my guess is that they would be
Dartmouth
Utah
UC-Santa Cruz
RPI
Wake Forest
Miami-FL
Illinois-Chicago
Colorado St.
Oregon St.
George Washington

Now GW might be mostly medical school, so it might be UC-Riverside in such a theoretical expansion.

That would be a real feather in the UC system's cap. Every member of the UC system save for UCSF (med school only,) UC Hastings (law school only,) and UC Merced (established in 2005) would be in the AAU.
03-25-2018 03:58 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
Thanks all for the input! Since certain conferences really stress academics I was wondering if any of the bubble candidates we toss around were close and if they were ever to get the green light if it would impact realignment.
03-25-2018 01:25 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-24-2018 09:04 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Do you mean to ask in terms of research or undergraduate education or graduate education? Some very highly rated schools for undergraduate work (you would not turn away a grad from Cooper Union, Vasser or Marquette) do little or no research.

The AAU is a research focused membership organization and only measure that category. The exact formula they use, and then the politics within, are heard to exactly measure. But if you are looking at "raw" research numbers, not a per research fellow, here are the top ones from the HERD report (not counting medical centers):

PHP Code:
School                                      Rank Percentile   R&D Spending
University of Alabama at Birmingham
The     42     5.5    $537,825,000
Virginia Polytechnic Institute 
and State U.  43     5.6    $521,773,000
Arizona State University                     44     5.7    
$518,239,000
University of South Florida
Tampa           46     6.0    $505,965,000
North Carolina State University              47     6.1    
$489,918,000
University of Cincinnati                     52     6.6    
$430,579,000
University of Georgia                        54     6.8    
$410,345,000
Boston University                            57     7.2    
$395,921,000
University of Miami                          62     7.7    
$358,441,000
University of Utah
The                      63     7.8    $350,212,000
University of Kentucky                       64     7.9    
$349,661,000
University of Illinois at Chicago            68     8.4    
$337,296,000
Washington State University                  70     8.6    
$334,082,000
Colorado State University
Fort Collins      71     8.7    $331,862,000
SUNY
Polytechnic Institute                  75     9.1    $316,680,000
University of Hawaii at Manoa                77     9.4    
$304,476,000
University of Nebraska
-Lincoln               80     9.7    $294,856,000
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge      81     9.8    $291,972,000
Florida State University                     82     9.9    
$268,288,000
University of Connecticut                    83    10.0    
$265,522,000
University of Oklahoma
The                  85    10.2    $259,998,000
Oregon State University                      87    10.5    
$254,275,000 

If you are just look at research level, then R1 Carnegie is useful. Some smaller schools with high ratios and thus could possibly qualify for AAU wont show up on this list. For selectivity, the Forbes and US&WR type lists will provide that (their rankings are primarily a reflection of admission selectivity and "peer rankings", i.e., prestige).

AAU doesn't only measure graduate education metrics. All of them have undergraduate programs, otherwise a school like UCSF would be a member.
03-25-2018 01:29 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-25-2018 01:25 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Thanks all for the input! Since certain conferences really stress academics I was wondering if any of the bubble candidates we toss around were close and if they were ever to get the green light if it would impact realignment.

They say they do on their brochures, but they really don't. They are athletic conferences 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and exist to make money for their members based on contracts for athletics. Bonus points if the school has a good academic reputation because of the optics, but no power conference is inviting Harvard, Lehigh, or even a Rice because they are so good academically.

While it is somewhat fruitful to look at ranks of total R&D, and probably more telling, total federal obligations (which is more of a gold standard because they are typically peer reviewed and awarded), it really doesn't take into the quality or scale of the enterprises at any one school (as mentioned above, CalTech and MIT are two research leaders but relatively small schools). You may want to look at something like the Center for Measuring University Performance, which is a more holistic approach trying to evaluate the overall institution and something that research universities actually use to measure themselves against their peers. The CMUP is more likely to look like what the AAU would use to evaluate membership, but the AAU isn't expanding.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2018 01:46 PM by CrazyPaco.)
03-25-2018 01:35 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
ARWU list.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-Uni...7/USA.html

Top 60 ARWU, but not in AAU:

University of California, Santa Cruz
Arizona State
University of Utah

Presumably, these schools are high on the list.

Rated 61+ by ARWU, but in AAU:

University of Iowa
University of Virginia
Iowa State
Stony Brook
University of Buffalo
University of Kansas
University of Missouri
University of Oregon
Tulane University
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018 07:15 AM by CougarRed.)
03-25-2018 03:45 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
(03-25-2018 03:45 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  ARWU list.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-Uni...7/USA.html

Top 60 ARWU, but not in AAU:

University of California, San Francisco
Rockefeller Univ.
University of California, Santa Cruz
Arizona State
University of Utah

Presumably, these schools are high on the list.

Rated 61+ by ARWU, but in AAU:

University of Iowa
University of Virginia
Iowa State
Stony Brook
University of Buffalo
University of Kansas
University of Missouri
University of Oregon
Tulane University

UCSF has only graduate programs and isn't eligible. Same with Rockefeller.

One off the primary purposes off the AAU is to share and compare data and information among the group...things like faculty salary averages. That only makes sense when the universities are similarly construed. That's also why they purged UNL and SU...because they had become outliers in many criteria. UVA, Iowa, Buffalo, Tulane, Stony Brook...those schools are not in any danger of being purged.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2018 04:02 PM by CrazyPaco.)
03-25-2018 04:01 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Top academic schools outside of the AAU
Wen I look at the various criteria, R&D, Fed Grant Obligations, Doctorates Awarded the same schools not in the AAU keep showing up among them.

Illinois Chicago, Utah, Virginia Tech and Miami are always near the top. I have to think those 4 are the top candidates for future AAU membership. And I have heard some say Miami and Utah are candidates, which makes sense.
03-26-2018 12:51 AM
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