Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
Author Message
Skyhawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,637
Joined: Nov 2021
Reputation: 550
I Root For: Big10
Location:
Post: #41
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
As an aside, I think the exact moment that NC is no longer a member of the ACC, there will be a significant paradigm shift.

Even moreso if FSU and Clemson (football powers) leave with them.

Any past statements of "the ACC would never do that", go right out the window.

Also, the addition of Stanford, increases the ND voting bloc.

I think things may be quite different in the ACC.
09-13-2023 09:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 37,888
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 7737
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #42
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-13-2023 09:07 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  As an aside, I think the exact moment that NC is no longer a member of the ACC, there will be a significant paradigm shift.

Even moreso if FSU and Clemson (football powers) leave with them.

Any past statements of "the ACC would never do that", go right out the window.

Also, the addition of Stanford, increases the ND voting bloc.

I think things may be quite different in the ACC.

It is an interesting potentiality upon which to speculate, that Notre Dame could build the conference they wish to join by staying with the ACC to build it as Clemson and Florida State depart, UNC and Duke depart (and I believe that is the likely partner for UNC as it was the one they requested in 2011 and the one ESPN would have the most interest in having).

Move the SEC to 20 with those 4 and move Virginia and Kansas to the Big 10 for 20.

Now Notre Dame can operate:

Cal, Stanford, S.M.U., Miami, Georgia Tech, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Louisville, and Notre Dame. Now you can add South Florida and Connecticut and you have 14 plus 1. What the Big 10 might look out for is Southern Cal getting antsy.

And what does that do? It groups the best 20 brands for the money that FOX can muster for the Big 10 (all AAU save Nebraska), and the best 20 brands for the SEC and ESPN.

The Big 12 pays 32 million and the ACC pays about 40 million and there is your new T2 and odd time slot games for FOX and ESPN. Notre Dame can honor its Big 10 NBC deal and keep its less rigorous usual opponents. ESPN keeps a piece of the Notre Dame pie. There's your P4 with the SEC and Big 10 essentially functioning as a P2 and the Big 12 and ACC replacing the G5 in an upper tier of 4 conferences all guaranteed inclusion.

If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be if more basketball branding is sought.

This keeps the remaining ACC schools well enough that they will see the others leaving as more like saying goodbye to the problem children than losing your status.

It could work quite nicely.
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2023 09:28 PM by JRsec.)
09-13-2023 09:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,154
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 559
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #43
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
Consolidating football power first and then using basketball pedigree as a way to bolster value in the new era of separation would be an interesting approach.

For the SEC, I think Florida State, Clemson, and UNC seem to be the 3 making the move first.

Duke makes sense as that school that UNC would prefer to come along as their partner and it also makes sense if we view basketball value as a precursor to future decisions. I theorize also that losing the Duke/UNC basketball rivalry would be untenable for ESPN. Makes sense they should push for it.

With that said, I also agree that ESPN would prefer to have Kansas in their fold. I've said it for a long time actually that Disney has a special affection for KU simply because they are one of the few schools that can command a national audience any time they play. That's valuable for ESPN during basketball season because networks need to sell subs and ads all 12 months of the year, not just during football season. Working Kansas into the SEC also makes a lot of sense in part because of Oklahoma and Missouri's inclusion.

Virginia Tech is very much an SEC style school in a new market and their campus is not far at all from the current SEC core. I've been a proponent of their inclusion as well.

If we stopped right there, that's 22 schools.
09-13-2023 10:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Skyhawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,637
Joined: Nov 2021
Reputation: 550
I Root For: Big10
Location:
Post: #44
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-13-2023 09:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 09:07 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  As an aside, I think the exact moment that NC is no longer a member of the ACC, there will be a significant paradigm shift.

Even moreso if FSU and Clemson (football powers) leave with them.

Any past statements of "the ACC would never do that", go right out the window.

Also, the addition of Stanford, increases the ND voting bloc.

I think things may be quite different in the ACC.

It is an interesting potentiality upon which to speculate, that Notre Dame could build the conference they wish to join by staying with the ACC to build it as Clemson and Florida State depart, UNC and Duke depart (and I believe that is the likely partner for UNC as it was the one they requested in 2011 and the one ESPN would have the most interest in having).

Move the SEC to 20 with those 4 and move Virginia and Kansas to the Big 10 for 20.

Now Notre Dame can operate:

Cal, Stanford, S.M.U., Miami, Georgia Tech, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Louisville, and Notre Dame. Now you can add South Florida and Connecticut and you have 14 plus 1. What the Big 10 might look out for is Southern Cal getting antsy.

And what does that do? It groups the best 20 brands for the money that FOX can muster for the Big 10 (all AAU save Nebraska), and the best 20 brands for the SEC and ESPN.

The Big 12 pays 32 million and the ACC pays about 40 million and there is your new T2 and odd time slot games for FOX and ESPN. Notre Dame can honor its Big 10 NBC deal and keep its less rigorous usual opponents. ESPN keeps a piece of the Notre Dame pie. There's your P4 with the SEC and Big 10 essentially functioning as a P2 and the Big 12 and ACC replacing the G5 in an upper tier of 4 conferences all guaranteed inclusion.

If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be if more basketball branding is sought.

This keeps the remaining ACC schools well enough that they will see the others leaving as more like saying goodbye to the problem children than losing your status.

It could work quite nicely.

Yes.

Whether it's Duke or NC state is immaterial. I think. If anything, I don't think the other ACC schools would mind keeping Duke basketball in-house.

And if espn is controlling the move, the Big10 might not get any schools. In which case, VA or VT might be the tag-along. Or maybe the 4th is Kansas.

Whichever the case, I think, when it's time for the next media deal, they might be looking for a new home for Wake Forest. In nearly every realignment discussion on this board, WF and BC get left out. Well for this, BC at least has a history with ND, and brings the Boston market.

WF may find it's looking around and only seeing 1 or 2 other NC schools, who may want the in-house market and recruiting to themselves...

All of this does make for an interesting conference:

ACC
Notre Dame, Stanford, Cal-Berkeley, SMU, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College, Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina State, Duke, Georgia Tech, USF, Miami

(Swap in UConn if a 4th school goes to the SEC instead of Kansas.)
09-13-2023 11:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
tf8693 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 2023
Reputation: 67
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location:
Post: #45
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-13-2023 10:51 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 09:45 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 06:22 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 01:00 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-12-2023 02:17 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  Oh sorry, I meant to the BigEast. I should have clarified.

I think Pitt, Louisville, and maybe Syracuse, make the trip to the Big12. And if so, ND could go along with those.

But before that happens, I think the Big12 likely loses a few schools.

There's also the option that ND just forms a new conference and picks who they want to join. Oh wait, that's what the current ACC is turning into... Nevermind : )

Who would the XII lose? AZ? AZST? CO? KS? UT? Someone else?

lose - by P2 poaching...

For the Big10, any of the 4Cs and Kansas, are the most likely, due to AAU, etc.

For the SEC, Kansas, another TX school, and/or possibly others.

If 24 is the goal is either the SEC or B1G sweep the jewels of the ACC, then I could see Kansas or the 4C being considered. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Let's say the B1G grabbed Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Stanford, and Virginia for 24. The SEC would take Clemson, Florida St, North Carolina St, Virginia Tech, and...? If they want 24, I'm not sure who would suffice. Would the SEC go for Colorado, Kansas, Utah, plus an Arizona school? Would the SEC consider Louisville or Duke? What about a non-power school like Tulane in the heart of SEC-country? I'm just not sure what the SEC would do IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

Let's say the SEC went to 24 with Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia. Would the B1G be able to get Notre Dame? They would likely take California and Stanford. What about Virginia Tech and North Carolina St? Or Pittsburgh or Syracuse? Or even the 4C? I'm not sure who the B1G would consider in the scenario IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

The most likely race to 24, in my mind, involves the conferences splitting the top of the ACC.
SEC adds Clemson, Colorado, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Virginia, and Virginia Tech.
B1G adds California, Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame, and Stanford.

XII (14) swallows the ACC (6) and adds 4 of Memphis, Oregon St, San Diego St, South Florida, Tulane, and Washington St.

Would you care to tell me when the Big 10 has landed anything that the SEC also wanted? Seriously? Texas? Texas A&M? Possibly Oklahoma? Other than those the 2 conferences haven't gone head to head. North Carolina has twice approached the SEC. In 2011 it was about coming with Duke if Virginia headed to the Big 10. I don't think either conference sweeps the 3 academic jewels of the ACC and that is what they are, academic jewels. Of the three only UNC has an athletic value worthy of either conference. Virginia doesn't have much revenue punch at all for athletics. Duke has some but in basketball.

If the number is 20, which I believe to be more likely, the SEC will go after Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, and either Clemson or Miami.

With FOX/Big 10 looking to monetize a kind of NIT tournament in the future, I look for a push toward a breakaway national tournament for the championship in basketball. Hoops will slightly more than double in value if this transpires.

I believe the networks stressed football to consolidate the biggest money first. When Yormark raised the possibility of adding hoops only the plan was tipped to us. If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be with hoops brands, possibly at a reduced rate, but with football playing hoops brands. I think the Big 12 will pick up the hoops only brands.

If the SEC added Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Clemson, to complete football branding in the SE, I could see an SEC and Big 10 competition for Miami (which also has good basketball). I could see the SEC taking Duke to appease and cement UNC and because ESPN would want to keep them, and I could see a similar competition between the SEC and Big 10 over Kansas which has football but is a hoops blueblood. ESPN also has a yen for Kansas.

I think Virginia goes Big 10 with Colorado. I believe ESPN will want to keep Miami and Duke. Stanford and Cal wind up in the Big 10 and if the Big 10 is smart they take Utah as well along with one of the Arizona schools.

Big 10 to 20: Virginia and Colorado (the Buffs to help link the West to the Midwest). To 24: Arizona, Cal, Stanford and Utah.

SEC to 20: Clemson, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech. To 24: Duke, Miami, Kansas, and N.C. State just to complete the Research Triangle.

Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse to the Big 12 with Connecticut, San Diego State and South Florida.

I don't think there's a set number for either conference. And there certainly isn't an agreement between them as to a set number. This process is competitive, not cooperative. In the end, I think the final number depends on what each conference wants and is able to get toward that end. If I had to guess, I think the Big Ten ends up at 24 and the SEC ends up at 20. But I very easily could be wrong about that.
09-14-2023 06:23 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 37,888
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 7737
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #46
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-14-2023 06:23 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 10:51 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 09:45 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 06:22 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 01:00 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Who would the XII lose? AZ? AZST? CO? KS? UT? Someone else?

lose - by P2 poaching...

For the Big10, any of the 4Cs and Kansas, are the most likely, due to AAU, etc.

For the SEC, Kansas, another TX school, and/or possibly others.

If 24 is the goal is either the SEC or B1G sweep the jewels of the ACC, then I could see Kansas or the 4C being considered. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Let's say the B1G grabbed Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Stanford, and Virginia for 24. The SEC would take Clemson, Florida St, North Carolina St, Virginia Tech, and...? If they want 24, I'm not sure who would suffice. Would the SEC go for Colorado, Kansas, Utah, plus an Arizona school? Would the SEC consider Louisville or Duke? What about a non-power school like Tulane in the heart of SEC-country? I'm just not sure what the SEC would do IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

Let's say the SEC went to 24 with Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia. Would the B1G be able to get Notre Dame? They would likely take California and Stanford. What about Virginia Tech and North Carolina St? Or Pittsburgh or Syracuse? Or even the 4C? I'm not sure who the B1G would consider in the scenario IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

The most likely race to 24, in my mind, involves the conferences splitting the top of the ACC.
SEC adds Clemson, Colorado, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Virginia, and Virginia Tech.
B1G adds California, Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame, and Stanford.

XII (14) swallows the ACC (6) and adds 4 of Memphis, Oregon St, San Diego St, South Florida, Tulane, and Washington St.

Would you care to tell me when the Big 10 has landed anything that the SEC also wanted? Seriously? Texas? Texas A&M? Possibly Oklahoma? Other than those the 2 conferences haven't gone head to head. North Carolina has twice approached the SEC. In 2011 it was about coming with Duke if Virginia headed to the Big 10. I don't think either conference sweeps the 3 academic jewels of the ACC and that is what they are, academic jewels. Of the three only UNC has an athletic value worthy of either conference. Virginia doesn't have much revenue punch at all for athletics. Duke has some but in basketball.

If the number is 20, which I believe to be more likely, the SEC will go after Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, and either Clemson or Miami.

With FOX/Big 10 looking to monetize a kind of NIT tournament in the future, I look for a push toward a breakaway national tournament for the championship in basketball. Hoops will slightly more than double in value if this transpires.

I believe the networks stressed football to consolidate the biggest money first. When Yormark raised the possibility of adding hoops only the plan was tipped to us. If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be with hoops brands, possibly at a reduced rate, but with football playing hoops brands. I think the Big 12 will pick up the hoops only brands.

If the SEC added Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Clemson, to complete football branding in the SE, I could see an SEC and Big 10 competition for Miami (which also has good basketball). I could see the SEC taking Duke to appease and cement UNC and because ESPN would want to keep them, and I could see a similar competition between the SEC and Big 10 over Kansas which has football but is a hoops blueblood. ESPN also has a yen for Kansas.

I think Virginia goes Big 10 with Colorado. I believe ESPN will want to keep Miami and Duke. Stanford and Cal wind up in the Big 10 and if the Big 10 is smart they take Utah as well along with one of the Arizona schools.

Big 10 to 20: Virginia and Colorado (the Buffs to help link the West to the Midwest). To 24: Arizona, Cal, Stanford and Utah.

SEC to 20: Clemson, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech. To 24: Duke, Miami, Kansas, and N.C. State just to complete the Research Triangle.

Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse to the Big 12 with Connecticut, San Diego State and South Florida.

I don't think there's a set number for either conference. And there certainly isn't an agreement between them as to a set number. This process is competitive, not cooperative. In the end, I think the final number depends on what each conference wants and is able to get toward that end. If I had to guess, I think the Big Ten ends up at 24 and the SEC ends up at 20. But I very easily could be wrong about that.
Once you do away with divisions, the only thing you bump up against is the need to keep an even number for scheduling. I thought it interesting when Swarbrick and Warren initially tossed out the number 22. That's an strange number. 20 or 24 is seems more symmetrical.

But then I took a look at markets which were sufficient to justify their addition, schools with national appeal capable of doing the same, and revenue of schools compared against the SEC and Big 10's respective MEAN revenue, and those comments suddenly made sense.

I agree that having an equal number appears comparative, but it too is competitive, not so much from a conference standpoint where size of share is impacted, as it is from a network standpoint. It means one network doesn't have more games to sell than another. And even that impacts conferences inasmuch as it increases or decreases their voting strength not just presently in the NCAA but in any organization of upper tier schools.

I've stated that the number may be dictated by the time slots a network has need to fill, or in the case of the Big 10, networks.

At 22 the SEC could add effectively. Those next two schools to 24 if taken alone take a dip in what they offer, but they do preserve rivalries for some others included. We'll see which is the more important aspect. BTW, 22 seems to work pretty well for the Big 10 as well.
09-14-2023 11:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BePcr07 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,900
Joined: Dec 2015
Reputation: 342
I Root For: Boise St & Zags
Location:
Post: #47
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-14-2023 11:14 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 06:23 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 10:51 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 09:45 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 06:22 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  lose - by P2 poaching...

For the Big10, any of the 4Cs and Kansas, are the most likely, due to AAU, etc.

For the SEC, Kansas, another TX school, and/or possibly others.

If 24 is the goal is either the SEC or B1G sweep the jewels of the ACC, then I could see Kansas or the 4C being considered. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Let's say the B1G grabbed Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Stanford, and Virginia for 24. The SEC would take Clemson, Florida St, North Carolina St, Virginia Tech, and...? If they want 24, I'm not sure who would suffice. Would the SEC go for Colorado, Kansas, Utah, plus an Arizona school? Would the SEC consider Louisville or Duke? What about a non-power school like Tulane in the heart of SEC-country? I'm just not sure what the SEC would do IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

Let's say the SEC went to 24 with Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia. Would the B1G be able to get Notre Dame? They would likely take California and Stanford. What about Virginia Tech and North Carolina St? Or Pittsburgh or Syracuse? Or even the 4C? I'm not sure who the B1G would consider in the scenario IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

The most likely race to 24, in my mind, involves the conferences splitting the top of the ACC.
SEC adds Clemson, Colorado, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Virginia, and Virginia Tech.
B1G adds California, Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame, and Stanford.

XII (14) swallows the ACC (6) and adds 4 of Memphis, Oregon St, San Diego St, South Florida, Tulane, and Washington St.

Would you care to tell me when the Big 10 has landed anything that the SEC also wanted? Seriously? Texas? Texas A&M? Possibly Oklahoma? Other than those the 2 conferences haven't gone head to head. North Carolina has twice approached the SEC. In 2011 it was about coming with Duke if Virginia headed to the Big 10. I don't think either conference sweeps the 3 academic jewels of the ACC and that is what they are, academic jewels. Of the three only UNC has an athletic value worthy of either conference. Virginia doesn't have much revenue punch at all for athletics. Duke has some but in basketball.

If the number is 20, which I believe to be more likely, the SEC will go after Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, and either Clemson or Miami.

With FOX/Big 10 looking to monetize a kind of NIT tournament in the future, I look for a push toward a breakaway national tournament for the championship in basketball. Hoops will slightly more than double in value if this transpires.

I believe the networks stressed football to consolidate the biggest money first. When Yormark raised the possibility of adding hoops only the plan was tipped to us. If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be with hoops brands, possibly at a reduced rate, but with football playing hoops brands. I think the Big 12 will pick up the hoops only brands.

If the SEC added Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Clemson, to complete football branding in the SE, I could see an SEC and Big 10 competition for Miami (which also has good basketball). I could see the SEC taking Duke to appease and cement UNC and because ESPN would want to keep them, and I could see a similar competition between the SEC and Big 10 over Kansas which has football but is a hoops blueblood. ESPN also has a yen for Kansas.

I think Virginia goes Big 10 with Colorado. I believe ESPN will want to keep Miami and Duke. Stanford and Cal wind up in the Big 10 and if the Big 10 is smart they take Utah as well along with one of the Arizona schools.

Big 10 to 20: Virginia and Colorado (the Buffs to help link the West to the Midwest). To 24: Arizona, Cal, Stanford and Utah.

SEC to 20: Clemson, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech. To 24: Duke, Miami, Kansas, and N.C. State just to complete the Research Triangle.

Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse to the Big 12 with Connecticut, San Diego State and South Florida.

I don't think there's a set number for either conference. And there certainly isn't an agreement between them as to a set number. This process is competitive, not cooperative. In the end, I think the final number depends on what each conference wants and is able to get toward that end. If I had to guess, I think the Big Ten ends up at 24 and the SEC ends up at 20. But I very easily could be wrong about that.
Once you do away with divisions, the only thing you bump up against is the need to keep an even number for scheduling. I thought it interesting when Swarbrick and Warren initially tossed out the number 22. That's an strange number. 20 or 24 is seems more symmetrical.

But then I took a look at markets which were sufficient to justify their addition, schools with national appeal capable of doing the same, and revenue of schools compared against the SEC and Big 10's respective MEAN revenue, and those comments suddenly made sense.

I agree that having an equal number appears comparative, but it too is competitive, not so much from a conference standpoint where size of share is impacted, as it is from a network standpoint. It means one network doesn't have more games to sell than another. And even that impacts conferences inasmuch as it increases or decreases their voting strength not just presently in the NCAA but in any organization of upper tier schools.

I've stated that the number may be dictated by the time slots a network has need to fill, or in the case of the Big 10, networks.

At 22 the SEC could add effectively. Those next two schools to 24 if taken alone take a dip in what they offer, but they do preserve rivalries for some others included. We'll see which is the more important aspect. BTW, 22 seems to work pretty well for the Big 10 as well.

I've never played around with 22. Here goes:

B1G (18) + Miami, Notre Dame, Stanford, Virginia

SEC (16) + Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, Virginia Tech

XII (15) + California, Connecticut, Georgia Tech, Louisville, North Carolina St, Pittsburgh, Syracuse

MWC (12) + Memphis, Navy, Oregon St, Rice, SMU, South Florida, Tulane, Tulsa, UTSA, Washington St

SBC (14) + Army, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee St, North Texas, Temple, UAB, Western Kentucky

MAC (12) + CUSA (8) + Charlotte, Massachusetts

Big East (10) + Boston College, Wake Forest
> Football: IND
09-14-2023 02:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 37,888
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 7737
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #48
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-14-2023 02:05 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 11:14 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 06:23 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 10:51 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 09:45 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  If 24 is the goal is either the SEC or B1G sweep the jewels of the ACC, then I could see Kansas or the 4C being considered. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Let's say the B1G grabbed Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Stanford, and Virginia for 24. The SEC would take Clemson, Florida St, North Carolina St, Virginia Tech, and...? If they want 24, I'm not sure who would suffice. Would the SEC go for Colorado, Kansas, Utah, plus an Arizona school? Would the SEC consider Louisville or Duke? What about a non-power school like Tulane in the heart of SEC-country? I'm just not sure what the SEC would do IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

Let's say the SEC went to 24 with Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia. Would the B1G be able to get Notre Dame? They would likely take California and Stanford. What about Virginia Tech and North Carolina St? Or Pittsburgh or Syracuse? Or even the 4C? I'm not sure who the B1G would consider in the scenario IF the conference felt obligated to reach 24.

The most likely race to 24, in my mind, involves the conferences splitting the top of the ACC.
SEC adds Clemson, Colorado, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, North Carolina St, Virginia, and Virginia Tech.
B1G adds California, Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame, and Stanford.

XII (14) swallows the ACC (6) and adds 4 of Memphis, Oregon St, San Diego St, South Florida, Tulane, and Washington St.

Would you care to tell me when the Big 10 has landed anything that the SEC also wanted? Seriously? Texas? Texas A&M? Possibly Oklahoma? Other than those the 2 conferences haven't gone head to head. North Carolina has twice approached the SEC. In 2011 it was about coming with Duke if Virginia headed to the Big 10. I don't think either conference sweeps the 3 academic jewels of the ACC and that is what they are, academic jewels. Of the three only UNC has an athletic value worthy of either conference. Virginia doesn't have much revenue punch at all for athletics. Duke has some but in basketball.

If the number is 20, which I believe to be more likely, the SEC will go after Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, and either Clemson or Miami.

With FOX/Big 10 looking to monetize a kind of NIT tournament in the future, I look for a push toward a breakaway national tournament for the championship in basketball. Hoops will slightly more than double in value if this transpires.

I believe the networks stressed football to consolidate the biggest money first. When Yormark raised the possibility of adding hoops only the plan was tipped to us. If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be with hoops brands, possibly at a reduced rate, but with football playing hoops brands. I think the Big 12 will pick up the hoops only brands.

If the SEC added Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Clemson, to complete football branding in the SE, I could see an SEC and Big 10 competition for Miami (which also has good basketball). I could see the SEC taking Duke to appease and cement UNC and because ESPN would want to keep them, and I could see a similar competition between the SEC and Big 10 over Kansas which has football but is a hoops blueblood. ESPN also has a yen for Kansas.

I think Virginia goes Big 10 with Colorado. I believe ESPN will want to keep Miami and Duke. Stanford and Cal wind up in the Big 10 and if the Big 10 is smart they take Utah as well along with one of the Arizona schools.

Big 10 to 20: Virginia and Colorado (the Buffs to help link the West to the Midwest). To 24: Arizona, Cal, Stanford and Utah.

SEC to 20: Clemson, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech. To 24: Duke, Miami, Kansas, and N.C. State just to complete the Research Triangle.

Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse to the Big 12 with Connecticut, San Diego State and South Florida.

I don't think there's a set number for either conference. And there certainly isn't an agreement between them as to a set number. This process is competitive, not cooperative. In the end, I think the final number depends on what each conference wants and is able to get toward that end. If I had to guess, I think the Big Ten ends up at 24 and the SEC ends up at 20. But I very easily could be wrong about that.
Once you do away with divisions, the only thing you bump up against is the need to keep an even number for scheduling. I thought it interesting when Swarbrick and Warren initially tossed out the number 22. That's an strange number. 20 or 24 is seems more symmetrical.

But then I took a look at markets which were sufficient to justify their addition, schools with national appeal capable of doing the same, and revenue of schools compared against the SEC and Big 10's respective MEAN revenue, and those comments suddenly made sense.

I agree that having an equal number appears comparative, but it too is competitive, not so much from a conference standpoint where size of share is impacted, as it is from a network standpoint. It means one network doesn't have more games to sell than another. And even that impacts conferences inasmuch as it increases or decreases their voting strength not just presently in the NCAA but in any organization of upper tier schools.

I've stated that the number may be dictated by the time slots a network has need to fill, or in the case of the Big 10, networks.

At 22 the SEC could add effectively. Those next two schools to 24 if taken alone take a dip in what they offer, but they do preserve rivalries for some others included. We'll see which is the more important aspect. BTW, 22 seems to work pretty well for the Big 10 as well.

I've never played around with 22. Here goes:

B1G (18) + Miami, Notre Dame, Stanford, Virginia

SEC (16) + Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, Virginia Tech

XII (15) + California, Connecticut, Georgia Tech, Louisville, North Carolina St, Pittsburgh, Syracuse

MWC (12) + Memphis, Navy, Oregon St, Rice, SMU, South Florida, Tulane, Tulsa, UTSA, Washington St

SBC (14) + Army, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee St, North Texas, Temple, UAB, Western Kentucky

MAC (12) + CUSA (8) + Charlotte, Massachusetts

Big East (10) + Boston College, Wake Forest
> Football: IND

Cleaner, isn't it? I would however keep the service academies together, easier for them to schedule with larger conferences.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2023 02:12 PM by JRsec.)
09-14-2023 02:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BePcr07 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,900
Joined: Dec 2015
Reputation: 342
I Root For: Boise St & Zags
Location:
Post: #49
RE: The Cost of Moving 7 ACC Schools to the SEC
(09-14-2023 02:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 02:05 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 11:14 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-14-2023 06:23 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  
(09-13-2023 10:51 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Would you care to tell me when the Big 10 has landed anything that the SEC also wanted? Seriously? Texas? Texas A&M? Possibly Oklahoma? Other than those the 2 conferences haven't gone head to head. North Carolina has twice approached the SEC. In 2011 it was about coming with Duke if Virginia headed to the Big 10. I don't think either conference sweeps the 3 academic jewels of the ACC and that is what they are, academic jewels. Of the three only UNC has an athletic value worthy of either conference. Virginia doesn't have much revenue punch at all for athletics. Duke has some but in basketball.

If the number is 20, which I believe to be more likely, the SEC will go after Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, and either Clemson or Miami.

With FOX/Big 10 looking to monetize a kind of NIT tournament in the future, I look for a push toward a breakaway national tournament for the championship in basketball. Hoops will slightly more than double in value if this transpires.

I believe the networks stressed football to consolidate the biggest money first. When Yormark raised the possibility of adding hoops only the plan was tipped to us. If the Big 10 and SEC move to 24 it will be with hoops brands, possibly at a reduced rate, but with football playing hoops brands. I think the Big 12 will pick up the hoops only brands.

If the SEC added Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Clemson, to complete football branding in the SE, I could see an SEC and Big 10 competition for Miami (which also has good basketball). I could see the SEC taking Duke to appease and cement UNC and because ESPN would want to keep them, and I could see a similar competition between the SEC and Big 10 over Kansas which has football but is a hoops blueblood. ESPN also has a yen for Kansas.

I think Virginia goes Big 10 with Colorado. I believe ESPN will want to keep Miami and Duke. Stanford and Cal wind up in the Big 10 and if the Big 10 is smart they take Utah as well along with one of the Arizona schools.

Big 10 to 20: Virginia and Colorado (the Buffs to help link the West to the Midwest). To 24: Arizona, Cal, Stanford and Utah.

SEC to 20: Clemson, Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech. To 24: Duke, Miami, Kansas, and N.C. State just to complete the Research Triangle.

Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse to the Big 12 with Connecticut, San Diego State and South Florida.

I don't think there's a set number for either conference. And there certainly isn't an agreement between them as to a set number. This process is competitive, not cooperative. In the end, I think the final number depends on what each conference wants and is able to get toward that end. If I had to guess, I think the Big Ten ends up at 24 and the SEC ends up at 20. But I very easily could be wrong about that.
Once you do away with divisions, the only thing you bump up against is the need to keep an even number for scheduling. I thought it interesting when Swarbrick and Warren initially tossed out the number 22. That's an strange number. 20 or 24 is seems more symmetrical.

But then I took a look at markets which were sufficient to justify their addition, schools with national appeal capable of doing the same, and revenue of schools compared against the SEC and Big 10's respective MEAN revenue, and those comments suddenly made sense.

I agree that having an equal number appears comparative, but it too is competitive, not so much from a conference standpoint where size of share is impacted, as it is from a network standpoint. It means one network doesn't have more games to sell than another. And even that impacts conferences inasmuch as it increases or decreases their voting strength not just presently in the NCAA but in any organization of upper tier schools.

I've stated that the number may be dictated by the time slots a network has need to fill, or in the case of the Big 10, networks.

At 22 the SEC could add effectively. Those next two schools to 24 if taken alone take a dip in what they offer, but they do preserve rivalries for some others included. We'll see which is the more important aspect. BTW, 22 seems to work pretty well for the Big 10 as well.

I've never played around with 22. Here goes:

B1G (18) + Miami, Notre Dame, Stanford, Virginia

SEC (16) + Clemson, Duke, Florida St, Kansas, North Carolina, Virginia Tech

XII (15) + California, Connecticut, Georgia Tech, Louisville, North Carolina St, Pittsburgh, Syracuse

MWC (12) + Memphis, Navy, Oregon St, Rice, SMU, South Florida, Tulane, Tulsa, UTSA, Washington St

SBC (14) + Army, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee St, North Texas, Temple, UAB, Western Kentucky

MAC (12) + CUSA (8) + Charlotte, Massachusetts

Big East (10) + Boston College, Wake Forest
> Football: IND

Cleaner, isn't it? I would however keep the service academies together, easier for them to schedule with larger conferences.

I'm sure not every conference would hit 22 but it is clean. 44 is a much clearer top tier and there is a clear "next 22."
09-14-2023 03:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.