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I feel bad about the MAC...
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McKinney Online
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Post: #61
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 01:42 AM)The Grassy Nole Wrote:  The MAC is stable, and kicking UMass out of the league was a good move to make. I hope they stay at 12 for a while.

It was a good move on their part, but not renewing a football-only contract because UMass didn't want to leave a multi-bid basketball conference is different than being "kicked out" (despite awful football performance). I don't think it was a good relationship for either party.
04-06-2018 10:52 AM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 10:51 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 01:42 AM)The Grassy Nole Wrote:  The MAC is stable, and kicking UMass out of the league was a good move to make. I hope they stay at 12 for a while.

That is not exactly correct.

The MAC offered an all sports invite to UMass and by all accounts James Madison was on deck if UMass accepted. The old regime chose not to accept the all sports invite and stay with the A10 and be a FBS Independent.

To say it an another way is the MAC had no problem if UMass was all in. Rightfully so, the MAC had an issue with us being football only once Temple left. We also had mis-steps moving to FBS and that went against us as well. We have since had a complete turnover from President, Chancellor, AD, Football staff and according to ESPN presession #93.

We started out last season 0-6 with a lot of close losses including Ohio. We did not pack it in and finished 4-2 with wins over BYU and App State.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/tea...&year=2018

UMass had an opportunity to become relevant in football. The MAC didn't have much choice but to give the boot once Temple left. UMass doesn't offer much as a football only member to be unbalancing to a conference. Temple did, but they also used the MAC to "sorta" return to the BE/AAC. Basketball hasn't done much in a long time but still has a name for some reason. I am not dissing UMass, just saying that if the school wants to be in a conference, they are going to have to suck it up and realize they are not the ones who decide whether or not they are attractive in just offering their football program, especially considering it hasn't done well and still is relatively new to FBS. AAC isn't calling anytime soon and CUSA already said no as well...

Being a G5 independent is pretty much a death sentence these days.
04-06-2018 11:43 AM
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McKinney Online
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Post: #63
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 11:43 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  Being a G5 independent is pretty much a death sentence these days.

It's really not. From a scheduling perspective it's never been easier (since the start of the BCS era), and from a financial perspective we just need to lose less money than we were losing in FCS... which hasn't been a problem.
04-06-2018 11:58 AM
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beefcake0520 Offline
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 11:58 AM)McKinney Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 11:43 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  Being a G5 independent is pretty much a death sentence these days.

It's really not. From a scheduling perspective it's never been easier (since the start of the BCS era), and from a financial perspective we just need to lose less money than we were losing in FCS... which hasn't been a problem.

It is in many senses. You would have to have an outstanding season to find a bowl since there isn't any agreements like there is with a conference. You or BYU for that matter, or Army, can not play for the NY6 bowl since it requires a conference champion. Getting home games against any P5 isn't impossible, but definitely harder than it could be. My point is, while you may maintain or stay slightly head above water, the program itself is confined to basically playing with no reward, which in turn hurts recruiting, attendance, building blocks to improve facilities and overall health of the program etc etc, domino effect.
04-06-2018 12:04 PM
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Post: #65
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
Looking at history:

MAC school leave for CUSA.
SBC schools leave for CUSA.
CUSA schools leave for MWC/AAC/BE.
MWC schools leave for PAC/B12.
AAC schools leave for ACC/B10.

This churn of course changes the landscape each time. But, no FBS school has ever jumped ship to join the MAC or SBC. That I recall.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2018 12:11 PM by va-eagle.)
04-06-2018 12:10 PM
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Post: #66
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
I would have been fine with Massachusetts and James Madison in the MAC, all sports. But continuing at 13 was awkward. So the MAC made its decision, and Massachusetts made its decision, and here we are.
04-06-2018 12:12 PM
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Post: #67
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 12:10 PM)va-eagle Wrote:  Looking at history:

MAC school leave for CUSA.
SBC schools leave for CUSA.
CUSA schools leave for MWC/AAC/BE.
MWC schools leave for PAC/B12.
AAC schools leave for ACC/B10.

This churn of course changes the landscape each time. But, no FBS school has ever jumped ship to join the MAC or SBC. That I recall.
Correct. The last churn kinda screwed things up though, had to go after those markets instead of best available programs, messed it all up. CUSA isn't as desirable as it once was as a result. MAC imo, came out the best by not changing much. Since 2005, they lost 2 to CUSA, 1 to AAC and booted one.
04-06-2018 12:24 PM
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McKinney Online
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Post: #68
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 12:04 PM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  It is in many senses. You would have to have an outstanding season to find a bowl since there isn't any agreements like there is with a conference. You or BYU for that matter, or Army, can not play for the NY6 bowl since it requires a conference champion. Getting home games against any P5 isn't impossible, but definitely harder than it could be. My point is, while you may maintain or stay slightly head above water, the program itself is confined to basically playing with no reward, which in turn hurts recruiting, attendance, building blocks to improve facilities and overall health of the program etc etc, domino effect.

Yeah those are definitely downsides (though I wouldn't call them a death sentence), but from our perspective there isn't really anywhere to go but up. We need to worry about being bowl eligible before we worry about going to a bowl. I don't know why it'd be any easier getting a P5 home game as a member of the MAC as it is as an independent.

There's no question that the MAC's stability could have been great for development. One could make the argument that it might have led to more facility development, although Massachusetts is still attempting to build an IPF despite their independent status.

Then again, MAC teams have struggled with "coaching change collapse". https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...ule-roster

(04-06-2018 12:12 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  I would have been fine with Massachusetts and James Madison in the MAC, all sports. But continuing at 13 was awkward. So the MAC made its decision, and Massachusetts made its decision, and here we are.

I do wish that MAC had worked out, adding James Madison would have been fun.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2018 12:56 PM by McKinney.)
04-06-2018 12:53 PM
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Post: #69
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 12:53 PM)McKinney Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 12:04 PM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  It is in many senses. You would have to have an outstanding season to find a bowl since there isn't any agreements like there is with a conference. You or BYU for that matter, or Army, can not play for the NY6 bowl since it requires a conference champion. Getting home games against any P5 isn't impossible, but definitely harder than it could be. My point is, while you may maintain or stay slightly head above water, the program itself is confined to basically playing with no reward, which in turn hurts recruiting, attendance, building blocks to improve facilities and overall health of the program etc etc, domino effect.

Yeah those are definitely downsides (though I wouldn't call them a death sentence), but from our perspective there isn't really anywhere to go but up. We need to worry about being bowl eligible before we worry about going to a bowl. I don't know why it'd be any easier getting a P5 home game as a member of the MAC as it is as an independent.

There's no question that the MAC's stability could have been great for development. One could make the argument that it might have led to more facility development, although Massachusetts is still attempting to build an IPF despite their independent status.

Then again, MAC teams have struggled with "coaching change collapse". https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...ule-roster

(04-06-2018 12:12 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  I would have been fine with Massachusetts and James Madison in the MAC, all sports. But continuing at 13 was awkward. So the MAC made its decision, and Massachusetts made its decision, and here we are.

I do wish that MAC had worked out, adding James Madison would have been fun.

It's easier because you can build a resume a bit easier in a conference instead of scheduling 4-5 body bag games a year. Helps in recruiting, you can sale the chance at a NY6 bowl, or conference related bowls. One thing is connected to another in terms of success, which is why being in conference is better than being indy. You build the recruiting up, winning follows, with a good coach, establish a foothold to consistently being a player in said conference. P5's tend to schedule away games at G5's if they have earned their place in national recognition. How long do you think it took Marshall to get a real P5 to visit Huntington? 2005, Kansas State..Marshall moved back up to 1A status in 97, so it took 8 years of winning to get a series like that. Liberty may be the exception, I predict they may be successful being independent, lots of money to throw around, but they still face the same hurdles than any G5 indy faces in terms of bowls, NY6 etc.
04-06-2018 01:32 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
The MAC is the best conference by keeping expenses down and relatively close to one another. I would enjoy the additional revenue that the B1G or SEC bring in but would hate the spending and huge department differences. Just by going with the numbers from USA Today which doesn't have every school listed. Numbers could be more skewed than what I post. This is the difference in expenses from highest to lowest.

MAC - $14mil (37-23)
AAC - $34mil (79-45)
ACC - $39mil (115-76)
B12 - $101mil (171-70)
B10 - $88mil (166-78)
USA - $20mil (43-23)
MWC - $25mil (55-30)
P12 - $39mil (110-71)
SEC - $61mil (145-84)
SBC - $32mil (43-11)
04-06-2018 02:01 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 02:01 PM)ilovegymnast Wrote:  The MAC is the best conference by keeping expenses down and relatively close to one another. I would enjoy the additional revenue that the B1G or SEC bring in but would hate the spending and huge department differences. Just by going with the numbers from USA Today which doesn't have every school listed. Numbers could be more skewed than what I post. This is the difference in expenses from highest to lowest.

MAC - $14mil (37-23)
AAC - $34mil (79-45)
ACC - $39mil (115-76)
B12 - $101mil (171-70)
B10 - $88mil (166-78)
USA - $20mil (43-23)
MWC - $25mil (55-30)
P12 - $39mil (110-71)
SEC - $61mil (145-84)
SBC - $32mil (43-11)
The one thing troubling about the MAC as far as expenses go is the average % subsidy the schools use to operate sports/budget. That's the only black eye I see other than live gate generation, but then again only a few G5 schools keep a healthy live gate.
04-06-2018 02:32 PM
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Post: #72
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 12:10 PM)va-eagle Wrote:  Looking at history:

MAC school leave for CUSA.
SBC schools leave for CUSA.
CUSA schools leave for MWC/AAC/BE.
MWC schools leave for PAC/B12.
AAC schools leave for ACC/B10.

This churn of course changes the landscape each time. But, no FBS school has ever jumped ship to join the MAC or SBC. That I recall.

Well until about six years ago CUSA had teams people had heard of and had a TV contract that was more dollars than MAC and Sun Belt. Neither is true now.

This stupid preening over the CUSA brand is like saying people would flock to join the Southern because Alabama and Duke used to be members.
04-06-2018 02:48 PM
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Post: #73
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
You are correct. Honestly, the media deals are peanuts and do not factor in anymore, CUSA still has a few programs that are brands, but lost way too many that couldn't be replaced. There are still those that want to associate with schools of other conferences. Not every sunbelt programs is going to want to associate with CUSA east division, same holds true with the west division, but there are schools in each that bring a name at least. In reality, both conferences need to realign as they see fit and if there are some that want to make a separate conference with the best programs/tradition out of the two, I say more power to them. Otherwise the AAC and MW are going to get more distant to the rest of the G5 if things remain the same. Just my two cents. There are basically 6 or 7 schools either right at the Mississippi or east of it that would have interest of association: Marshall, USM, UAB, WKU, MT, LT and maybe ODU. Wouldn't surprise me if those schools and some belts schools have been talking behind the scenes about other options.
04-06-2018 03:01 PM
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Post: #74
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 01:32 PM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 12:53 PM)McKinney Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 12:04 PM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  It is in many senses. You would have to have an outstanding season to find a bowl since there isn't any agreements like there is with a conference. You or BYU for that matter, or Army, can not play for the NY6 bowl since it requires a conference champion. Getting home games against any P5 isn't impossible, but definitely harder than it could be. My point is, while you may maintain or stay slightly head above water, the program itself is confined to basically playing with no reward, which in turn hurts recruiting, attendance, building blocks to improve facilities and overall health of the program etc etc, domino effect.

Yeah those are definitely downsides (though I wouldn't call them a death sentence), but from our perspective there isn't really anywhere to go but up. We need to worry about being bowl eligible before we worry about going to a bowl. I don't know why it'd be any easier getting a P5 home game as a member of the MAC as it is as an independent.

There's no question that the MAC's stability could have been great for development. One could make the argument that it might have led to more facility development, although Massachusetts is still attempting to build an IPF despite their independent status.

Then again, MAC teams have struggled with "coaching change collapse". https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...ule-roster

(04-06-2018 12:12 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  I would have been fine with Massachusetts and James Madison in the MAC, all sports. But continuing at 13 was awkward. So the MAC made its decision, and Massachusetts made its decision, and here we are.

I do wish that MAC had worked out, adding James Madison would have been fun.

It's easier because you can build a resume a bit easier in a conference instead of scheduling 4-5 body bag games a year. Helps in recruiting, you can sale the chance at a NY6 bowl, or conference related bowls. One thing is connected to another in terms of success, which is why being in conference is better than being indy. You build the recruiting up, winning follows, with a good coach, establish a foothold to consistently being a player in said conference. P5's tend to schedule away games at G5's if they have earned their place in national recognition. How long do you think it took Marshall to get a real P5 to visit Huntington? 2005, Kansas State..Marshall moved back up to 1A status in 97, so it took 8 years of winning to get a series like that. Liberty may be the exception, I predict they may be successful being independent, lots of money to throw around, but they still face the same hurdles than any G5 indy faces in terms of bowls, NY6 etc.

I don't think UMass was credibly selling a New Year's bowl to any of their recruits, MAC or no MAC. I also don't think being in the MAC was going to help UMass get home and homes with Penn State anytime soon either. The scheduling is definitely more work as an indy, but a lot of the "you'll never become a nationally relevant brand!" talk kind of assumes an upside that wasn't there to begin with. I actually get why hearing that they have to join the MAC or CUSA or they'll be stuck having to schedule MAC and CUSA teams as an independent doesn't exactly scare UMass fans.
04-06-2018 04:10 PM
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McKinney Online
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 04:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  I don't think UMass was credibly selling a New Year's bowl to any of their recruits, MAC or no MAC. I also don't think being in the MAC was going to help UMass get home and homes with Penn State anytime soon either.

I doubt we were selling NY6 to recruits as well, but we have had home games with Mississippi State, Boston College, Colorado, BYU, Vanderbilt, and Indiana. They're not Penn State, but getting any P5 for a home game as a G5 FBS upstart ain't bad.

(04-06-2018 04:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  The scheduling is definitely more work as an indy, but a lot of the "you'll never become a nationally relevant brand!" talk kind of assumes an upside that wasn't there to begin with.

That's a little harsh coming from a football team that had the opportunity of a lifetime handed to them on a silver platter. 07-coffee3

(04-06-2018 04:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  I actually get why hearing that they have to join the MAC or CUSA or they'll be stuck having to schedule MAC and CUSA teams as an independent doesn't exactly scare UMass fans.

Spot on. The join the MAC or schedule them as an indy is basically the gist of how we feel. Although there is a select group of fans that really wanted to join MAC all-sports.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2018 06:21 PM by McKinney.)
04-06-2018 06:20 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 06:20 PM)McKinney Wrote:  I doubt we were selling NY6 to recruits as well, but we have had home games with Mississippi State, Boston College, Colorado, BYU, Vanderbilt, and Indiana. They're not Penn State, but getting any P5 for a home game as a G5 FBS upstart ain't bad.

Do you think UMass got those games because of their affiliation with the MAC, though? Or was it more likely that those schools were hunting for winnable OOC games and a state flagship with solid academics looks a little better on the schedule than "directional state"?


(04-06-2018 06:20 PM)McKinney Wrote:  
(04-06-2018 04:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  The scheduling is definitely more work as an indy, but a lot of the "you'll never become a nationally relevant brand!" talk kind of assumes an upside that wasn't there to begin with.

That's a little harsh coming from a football team that had the opportunity of a lifetime handed to them on a silver platter. 07-coffee3

If it makes you feel any better, I think the same thing about UConn. If they're making decisions based on the access bowl, their priorities are probably a little out of whack.
04-06-2018 06:35 PM
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Post: #77
RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-06-2018 06:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Do you think UMass got those games because of their affiliation with the MAC, though? Or was it more likely that those schools were hunting for winnable OOC games and a state flagship with solid academics looks a little better on the schedule than "directional state"?

I think those schools were hunting for winnable OOC games and a state flagship with solid academics. To their alumni/fan base I'm sure that does look more appealing (in general) than a directional school. It's also why I'm not worried about UMass' ability to schedule marquee games in the future body bag games or not. Funny enough we've played pretty well against those body bag games in recent years. Not enough to win (except against BYU), but damn close late in the game against Colorado, Vanderbilt, Florida, and Mississippi State.

(04-06-2018 06:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  If it makes you feel any better, I think the same thing about UConn. If they're making decisions based on the access bowl, their priorities are probably a little out of whack.

I think UMass and UConn will both be fine. It's going to take a lot of work and time for both schools (and I prefer they work together in the same conference) but I think it'll all work out in the end. There's enough resources and potential for two flagships of populous states to make a name for themselves. Perhaps not on a regular NY6 level, but regular mid-tier bowl games.
04-06-2018 08:00 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(03-23-2018 07:09 PM)lance99 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 06:58 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  The MAC is also a very stable conference whose conference members don't have to ask the question "who the hell exactly did we invite into our conference now?" every year.

It's a competitive conference that is what it is - a regional, "tier-below B1G but tier-above FCS" conference centered in the Great Lakes region.

Which is fine.

That is the thing with the MAC. As much as us MAC fans complain, we are very stable that has the best cover of any G5 Conference: Big Brother B1G
They would rather grab schools from Maryland/NJ than anyone from the MAC. When it comes for expansion time they will probably grab Cincy or a school in the north east.
04-06-2018 08:14 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-04-2018 10:46 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Frankly the MAC is the one conference that hasn't completely lost its head. Still a conference full of peers. Still a conference where the entire footprint is a day's drive. Still a conference where truly anybody can win a conference title. The playing field is even enough that the coaches usually are the deciding factor (thus the cradle of coaches).

Its a conference driven by one goal; to play in a NYD bowl game.
04-06-2018 08:52 PM
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RE: I feel bad about the MAC...
(04-05-2018 07:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Every MAC school has their ceiling which is predetermined by the P5 schools near them. The Ohio MAC schools orbit a giant Buckeye in the center of the state. Sparty and that school with a little fuzzy vermin for a mascot block the Michigan trio. NIU and Ball St both contend with an instate pair of Big Ten schools as well as Notre Dame's influence. Buffalo could have been something bigger had SUNY let them but the NFL and Syracuse were able to stake claim to that part of the state first.

MAC teams can still get pretty strong though. The only 3 that have never had a season in access bowl contention going back decades is EMU, Akron and Buffalo.

The others have at one time or another NYD type seasons. Unfortunately prior to this decade a lot of great teams didn't get the biggest bowl they deserved.

Where the AAC dream is play for a National Championship the MAC dream is a major bowl for its champion someday.
04-06-2018 09:04 PM
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