Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
OKIcat Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,585
Joined: Sep 2015
Reputation: 60
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #101
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 06:03 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Out of curiosity I looked at career winning percentage of NCAA D1 coaches (active and retired). Of the 250+ coaches listed (there are many ties), Mick currently stands at #111. Now that may sound "average" but you're talking thousandths of a percentage point separating coaches on the list. Here are a few names with career winning percentages below Mick:

113. Ray Meyer (DePaul)
114. John Chaney
115. Don Haskins (UTEP)
117. Jim Harrick
120. Skip Prosser
125. Tubby Smith
126. Mike Brey
128. Steve Fisher
138. Steve Alford
141. Norm Stewart (Missouri)
142. Gene Keady
150. Bruce Pearl
153. Bruce Weber
157. Kelvin Sampson
158. Rick Barnes
169. Ben Howland
172. John Thompson
176. Pete Gillen
177. Fran Dunphy
182. Gary Williams
196. John Beilein
201. Kermit Davis (MTSU)
205. Jim Valvano
214. Mark Gottfried
228. Frank Martin
237. Steve Lavin
242. Lon Kruger
249. Buzz Williams

I don't want to spend the time and energy comparing conference regular season titles, conf. tournament titles, NCAAT runs, national championships, etc., in order to keep this simple. Mick has had solid overall success in his 15 year coaching career and should continue to win at Cincinnati at a good clip. His success in the tournaments (conference & NCAAT) has been less so. We had one FF and 3 E8's in Huggins' 16 years here. However, those occurred during his first 7 seasons and the next 9 seasons resulted in only one S16 appearance. So looking at it strictly from the NCAAT lens, in almost 30 seasons Cincinnati has one FF, 3 E8 and 5 S16 appearances. For comparison's sake, here are some other programs NCAAT runs over the past 30 years:

Duke 5 Nattys/10 FF/13 E8/21 S16
UNC 4 Nattys/11 FF/14 E8/18 S16
Kentucky 3 Nattys/8 FF/15 E8/18 S16
Kansas 1 Natty/7 FF/13 E8/19 S16
Zona 1 Natty/3 FF/9 E8/16 S16
Indiana 0 Nattys/2 FF/3 E8/9 S16
Ohio St. 0 Nattys/2 FF/4 E8/7 S16
Exavier 0 Nattys/0 FF/3 E8/8 S16
Purdue 0 Nattys/0 FF/2 E8/8 S16
Pitt 0 Nattys/0 FF/1 E8/5 S16

The only reason I bring this up is it points to more than just coaching. IMO, long term, high level success is also based on elite players, conference affiliation, facilities, budgets, etc. While we've had some moments during the past 30 years, I just don't see where we will have an elite level of success that can be sustained without a major uptick in conference affiliation and player talent. I don't see our program in its current state making many deep tourney runs nor winning a national title. Again, that is not what I hope for but I'm stepping back and really looking at this realistically speaking.

So this brings me back to Mick. He's not going anywhere for now unless he chooses to move on. There is no way our university is going to can him with his overall success but even more so for the fact that he has run a clean program and kept the ship steering through calm waters. My question is, hypothetically speaking, if we would get a new coach at some point in the future would our success look any different overall? Again, I'm not talking about in one particular year but over a period of time. To me, that is the hard question that has to be answered over the next several years. IMHO, if we are really honest about it, we may not like the answer.

Great post and I mostly agree. I would only add that I am totally opposed to a raise or extension by UC at this point. Honor the raises/bonuses specified per his current contract until recruiting improves or he coaches the team to at least another Sweet Sixteen. P5 programs aren't waiting in line to hire him and he earns better than most any G5 or New Big East coach. If he wants to coach in the A10 or way out west, have at it.
 
03-27-2018 06:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Online
Moderator
*

Posts: 16,201
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 244
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #102
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.
I agree with this. I was rooting for Evans to have the ball and kick to Washington for a 3 on the last play against. I had more faith in him than anyone.
 
03-27-2018 06:55 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
skyblade Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 596
Joined: Oct 2009
Reputation: 12
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #103
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.
 
03-27-2018 06:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
doss2 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,386
Joined: Dec 2015
Reputation: 20
I Root For: BEARCATS
Location:
Post: #104
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-21-2018 07:48 AM)bww Wrote:  I'd be fine with less anger and excuses.

The anger is so phony and contrived. Does he think his huge 5'4" scares people?
 
03-27-2018 07:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rtaylor Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,220
Joined: Feb 2014
Reputation: 134
I Root For: Bearcats
Location:
Post: #105
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

03-lmfao The trio you mentioned is no where near the player Washington is. None of them can score outside of 3 feet. Washington was already a polished scorer when he got here. Enough with the defense crap. Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore. No clue where you get this nonsense. Do not give me the advanced stats either. None of those guys played major minutes so you have no clue what they will do when they get those minutes. Just ridiculous.
 
03-27-2018 07:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
skyblade Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 596
Joined: Oct 2009
Reputation: 12
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #106
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 07:15 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

03-lmfao The trio you mentioned is no where near the player Washington is. None of them can score outside of 3 feet. Washington was already a polished scorer when he got here. Enough with the defense crap. Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore. No clue where you get this nonsense. Do not give me the advanced stats either. None of those guys played major minutes so you have no clue what they will do when they get those minutes. Just ridiculous.

Scott/Brooks played a fair number of minutes and in big games. Nsoseme didn't play a ton of minutes, but he did play in important minutes. They are all superior defenders and rebounders to Washington and in some stats (especially offensive rebounds) it wasn't close. Cronin has also stated in interviews that they are all good enough to play at this level, it's just a matter of only having so many minutes to go around. I'm convinced that had Scott been in the game instead of Washington over the last 8 minutes, we would have beaten Nevada.

Scott showed the ability to create his own shot late in the season and also hit a couple jump shots. Brooks has a hook that he started hitting more late in the season. Nsoseme didn't really have an offensive game, but he was the best offensive rebounder on the team this year. They will score by getting the ball deeper in the post and getting put backs on offensive rebounds,

The big stat where the three were inferior was turnovers (especially Brooks) and Nsoseme/Brooks also commited a very high number of fouls. But those are both stats that significant playing time should bring down.

I get Washington was popular, but he wasn't that good. Look at the stats and the advanced stats and there wasn't much seperation between him and our other bigs. Clark was in a league of his own (best in the country in Box plus/minus, defensive rating, defensive win shares and win share/40 minutes) but Washington wasn't.
 
03-27-2018 08:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jarr Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,681
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 56
I Root For: Not "Not Duane"
Location:
Post: #107
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
link

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I believe this article summarizes alot of our thoughts. The lack of accountability is troubling.

As much as we all bash Calipari, he came out after UK got beat by K-State and owned and talked about things he could have done differently and how he failed the team and fans, that's at least respectable.
He also didnt try to trivialize the loss because there are bad things going on in the world. Micks "Sweet 16" quote may follow him around for a while if he cant get over that hump, probably his most absurd quote yet.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2018 08:31 PM by jarr.)
03-27-2018 08:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcat54 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,987
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 31
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #108
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-21-2018 05:54 AM)jarr Wrote:  I am curious what everyone's own expectations are for this program. There seems to be a lot of varying opinions on this, some seem very pleased with what Mick has done here and his trajectory, others seem to think he has taken this program to a certain level but won't get us further.

I personally, have always felt this program is a top 15 hoops school. History should tell us that based on all of the basic metrics (all time wins, final 4's championships, tourney appearances, AA's, times ranked in the polls, conference titles, etc.) We will be playing in a top 15 on campus arena next year, and I believe if committed, can pay a top 25 salary. I also believe we have a top 20 fan base, at least for Basketball. It doesn't always show, but when the team is doing well, UC fans travel pretty well and will fill up the arena on a consistent basis. We are and always will be a Basketball first school, where most schools learn Football first.


I do agree with some, that basing a season on what happens in the tournament can be a bit unfair, looking at this over a longer time frame should be more accurate. I believe that 1 sweet 16 in 12 years is not meeting the expectations of this program. However, this year gave me a glimmer of hope, that perhaps Mick is turning the corner (until Sunday).

I believe our expectations should be the following:

1) Be a final four contender every other year (realizing this may result in an expected early exit, but we should be considered in the running

2) Be a tournament level team nearly every year, probably 9 out of 10 years

3) Be challenging for the league title almost every year, maybe finishing top 3. But winning a championship about 4 out of 10 times.

4) At least one final four in a 10 year span. Whether we were a heavy favorite to do so entering as a 1 or 2 seed, or making an unexpected run as 3-6 seed.

5) Staying in the top 25 about 85% of the time.

6) Consistently bringing in top 40 recruiting classes, and top 3 AAC classes

7) Creating a pipleine with local talent, possibly having a somewhat local kid (100 mile radius) every other year.

8) Producing at least one NBA player every 4 year cycle

9) At least 3 sweet 16's in a 10 year span

10) Win totals should consistently be over 25 W per year

10) OOC SOS should be top 25 consistently, with our league not providing many opportunities for quality wins

11) Continuing to graduate players on a consistent basis and have good quality players that represent the school well

12) Coming close to winning a national championship or perhaps doing the whole thing. I realize winning the whole thing is a little unrealistic, but it would be nice to get close or be discussed as a heavy favorite at least once. Winning it would probably exceed my expectations.


Are these expectations realistic or unrealistic? Has Mick met yours in his 12 years, or has he exceeded or or not met yours?


please don't count the years of Coach Cronin's first 5 years at UC. Andy Kennedy left nothing on the table.
 
03-27-2018 10:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rtaylor Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,220
Joined: Feb 2014
Reputation: 134
I Root For: Bearcats
Location:
Post: #109
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 08:21 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 07:15 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

03-lmfao The trio you mentioned is no where near the player Washington is. None of them can score outside of 3 feet. Washington was already a polished scorer when he got here. Enough with the defense crap. Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore. No clue where you get this nonsense. Do not give me the advanced stats either. None of those guys played major minutes so you have no clue what they will do when they get those minutes. Just ridiculous.

Scott/Brooks played a fair number of minutes and in big games. Nsoseme didn't play a ton of minutes, but he did play in important minutes. They are all superior defenders and rebounders to Washington and in some stats (especially offensive rebounds) it wasn't close. Cronin has also stated in interviews that they are all good enough to play at this level, it's just a matter of only having so many minutes to go around. I'm convinced that had Scott been in the game instead of Washington over the last 8 minutes, we would have beaten Nevada.

Scott showed the ability to create his own shot late in the season and also hit a couple jump shots. Brooks has a hook that he started hitting more late in the season. Nsoseme didn't really have an offensive game, but he was the best offensive rebounder on the team this year. They will score by getting the ball deeper in the post and getting put backs on offensive rebounds,

The big stat where the three were inferior was turnovers (especially Brooks) and Nsoseme/Brooks also commited a very high number of fouls. But those are both stats that significant playing time should bring down.

I get Washington was popular, but he wasn't that good. Look at the stats and the advanced stats and there wasn't much seperation between him and our other bigs. Clark was in a league of his own (best in the country in Box plus/minus, defensive rating, defensive win shares and win share/40 minutes) but Washington wasn't.

So by this post and your previous one, we will be better next year minus our top 4 scorers because the trio you mentioned were better on defense and rebounded the ball at a higher rate than Washington. We will score by getting the ball deeper into the post to guys that can't shoot because Scott made a couple of jump shots late in the season. Also they are better options because Cronin said they could play at this level. What's he supposed to say? Washington while also popular, was not that good? I guess we will agree to disagree because based on the above, I have no idea what you are talking about. Hope we are much better on defense, because by your logic we will need to hold opposing teams to less than 40.
 
03-27-2018 10:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UCGrad1992 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 13,925
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 837
I Root For: Cincy Bearcats
Location: North Carolina
Post: #110
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
Again, it's not just Cronin. The last time UC got to the E8 was in 1996. Since then, we had 9 more seasons with Huggs, one with Andy Kennedy and 12 more with Mick. That equals 22 seasons and we've got two S16 appearances in that span. Two. Have we had success in terms of the regular season during those years? Absolutely. Yeah I know. The freak Kenyon injury prevented a deep run. That aside, you still look at the results over the long term. The issue is the trajectory for deep tournament runs has not been been there and is it likely to change?
 
03-27-2018 10:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Lush Offline
que la fĂȘte continue
*

Posts: 13,916
Joined: May 2004
Reputation: 262
I Root For: bail bondsmen
Location: sovereign ludditia
Post: #111
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 03:51 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm talking best overall season. I'll take this year over winning 1 more game and not being a top 5 type team. The Nevada loss is going to bother me forever though.

we meet at jd's honky tonk every thursday at five thirty in the morning
 
03-28-2018 07:19 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Bearcat01 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 781
Joined: Mar 2017
Reputation: 5
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #112
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 07:15 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

03-lmfao The trio you mentioned is no where near the player Washington is. None of them can score outside of 3 feet. Washington was already a polished scorer when he got here. Enough with the defense crap. Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore. No clue where you get this nonsense. Do not give me the advanced stats either. None of those guys played major minutes so you have no clue what they will do when they get those minutes. Just ridiculous.
Its called team basketball. I've ALWAYS seen the more talented but selfish players lose to less talented but team players. I'll take scott over washington every day of week
 
03-28-2018 07:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Marcus Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,571
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #113
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

All of this. For the life of me I can't figure out what in the world some UC fans are talking about. Washington is a huge loss. This whole "defensive" crap is so insanely overused and over-prioritized by some of our fans. Cronin has clearly gotten way into their head. Great vocal leader, always played hard, brought a legitimate offensive skill set to the interior. Losing him is huge and not in a good way. These guys replacing him all look like stiffs by comparison.
 
03-28-2018 07:46 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Marcus Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,571
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #114
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-27-2018 07:15 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 02:21 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Actually, I appear to be more optimistic than many here. I see Cronin slowly getting better as a coach and recruiter (which can't be easy at a non-power 5 school) every year. We took a shot in the NCAA's, but but could easily have a Final Four team this year and then everyone across the country would be singing Cronin's praises.

If Jacob Evans comes back next year, we have a team that is looking a single digit NCAA seed again with another chance to make an NCAA run. And if it happens, no one will be questioning Cronin.

I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore.

Could not have said it better. Fans need to quit trying overthink their way into totally unrealistic expectations as some fans clearly do with their advanced stats and BS like that. It's clear to anyone with a pair of eyes that Washington is a far better talent than any of the guys who will replace him. And his defense was not nearly as bad as some on here make it out to be. They've been Cronin-ized into over-prioritizing and thinking that is all that matters.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018 08:00 AM by Marcus.)
03-28-2018 07:52 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Online
Moderator
*

Posts: 16,201
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 244
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #115
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
I think I'm higher on Scott than many on here. I expect him to take a big step forward on offense next year. He won't be the big that can bury 3s like Washington and Clark this year, but I think he showed some skill around the basket this year and some skill getting to spots. I expect him to refine that and be a very effective overall player.

I loved what I saw from Nsosome this year, but he's very raw. He needs to work on making free throws and using his body to finish around the rim. I feel like Brooks' ceiling is a role player that can give you defense, but isn't strong enough with the ball or skilled enough offensively to give you much more.
 
03-28-2018 07:56 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Cataclysmo Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,892
Joined: Feb 2013
Reputation: 63
I Root For: Cincinnat
Location: Cincinnati
Post: #116
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
Washington is absolutely a huge loss. But his defense clearly hurt us throughout the year. Shaq Morris absolutely abused him in the second game vs Wichita. Mick was constantly forced to either hide him on D or sit him on the bench. And don't give me that crap about how Mick only cares about his defense. Because he left Kyle in plenty of times when he was lazy getting back.
 
03-28-2018 08:02 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jarr Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,681
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 56
I Root For: Not "Not Duane"
Location:
Post: #117
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-28-2018 07:52 AM)Marcus Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 07:15 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:57 PM)skyblade Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:22 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 04:33 PM)skyblade Wrote:  I agree, I actually think we will be a better team next year if Evans comes back. Obviously losing Clark hurts (and losing Washington doesn't really hurt), but Scott is ready to be a starter and the year of development for all our players outweighs the losses of Clark/Washington.

Don't bet on no one questioning Cronin though. It seems like some people only care about NCAA tournament results and others only care about getting recruits who are 4* plus, regardless of how they play. Can't make everyone happy.

How in the heck can you say losing Washington will not hurt? I did not realize we had another big who can score 12 a game waiting in the wings. What team did you watch all year? Washington was extremely clutch, won us some games and was a leader. Not too many of those sitting on our bench.

He lost us some games too, he was a horrible passer and not a good one-on-one defender. The Nevada game he was the one they exposed on D down the stretch. His offensive rebounding was nothing close to our other bigs. Yes, he could shoot, but even then he took bad shots and didn't pass.

Per 40 minutes Washington averaged the fewest; Offensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists and steals of our 5 bigs who got significant playing time. Looking at advanced stats he didn't particularly seperate himself from Brooks or Nsoseme (and Scott was mostly better then him). Yes he made shots, but the bad shots he took, lack of passing and worse defense evened things out. Give Brooks/Nsoseme a year with significant playing time and they will be quite a bit superior to Washington.

Even with Washington getting the majority of minutes we were one of the best defensive teams in the nation, and that got us bounced in the second round as usual. This is not the 1950s anymore.

Could not have said it better. Fans need to quit trying overthink their way into totally unrealistic expectations as some fans clearly do with their advanced stats and BS like that. It's clear to anyone with a pair of eyes that Washington is a far better talent than any of the guys who will replace him. And his defense was not nearly as bad as some on here make it out to be. They've been Cronin-ized into thinking that is all that matters.

Honestly, how good was our defense or has our defense even been under Cronin? When I get more time, I'll have to dig through the numbers, but it it seemed to me every time we actually played a talented team with an offensive skillset, they scored pretty well, especially when they needed to. Xavier, Nevada, etc. I'll give them credit, for making adjustments from the first WSU game and limiting them on Rd. 2, but overall I've always felt like the really good teams just score anyways and our defense looks just like any other teams defense.

It's insane to think good teams are going to get held to 50 points and that's how we need to beat them. The only team in modern college basketball that has come close to being able to truly dominate good teams like that on defense was 2015 UK, and that was because they ran out 3- mobile 7Fters and two 6-6 long armed PGs and a sleu ot other athletic NBA type freaks. Even they met their match in a very good shooting Wisconsin team. In the end, they weren't able to score consistently enough and that did them in.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018 08:09 AM by jarr.)
03-28-2018 08:08 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Online
Moderator
*

Posts: 16,201
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 244
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #118
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-28-2018 08:02 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  Washington is absolutely a huge loss. But his defense clearly hurt us throughout the year. Shaq Morris absolutely abused him in the second game vs Wichita. Mick was constantly forced to either hide him on D or sit him on the bench. And don't give me that crap about how Mick only cares about his defense. Because he left Kyle in plenty of times when he was lazy getting back.

He also hit two of the biggest clutch shots of the season. (At Temple and then against Houston in the conference championship, both trailing late).
 
03-28-2018 08:09 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Online
Moderator
*

Posts: 16,201
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 244
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #119
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-28-2018 08:08 AM)jarr Wrote:  Honestly, how good was our defense or has our defense even been under Cronin? When I get more time, I'll have to dig through the numbers, but it it seemed to me every time we actually played a talented team with an offensive skillset, they scored pretty well, especially when they needed to. Xavier, Nevada, etc. I'll give them credit, for making adjustments from the first WSU game and limiting them on Rd. 2, but overall I've always felt like the really good teams just score anyways and our defense looks just like any other teams defense.

It's insane to think good teams are going to get held to 50 points and that's how we need to beat them. The only team in modern college basketball that has come close to being able to truly dominate good teams like that on defense was 2015 UK, and that was because they ran out 3- mobile 7Fters and two 6-6 long armed PGs and a sleu ot other athletic NBA type freaks. Even they met their match in a very good shooting Wisconsin team. In the end, they weren't able to score consistently enough and that did them in.

Our defense has been great under Cronin and was exceptional this season. Your observation that great offensive teams are going to score more against it...well of course. But we hold almost all those teams below what they typically go for. Great defenses aren't expected to always completely shut down great offense. What we did to Wichita that second game was incredibly impressive. What we did to Nevada for 28 minutes was as well... and honestly I blame our lack of execution on the other end for the defensive breakdown... letting them speed us up allowed them to get into an open court game and prevented our defense from doing what they do.
 
03-28-2018 08:15 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
eroc Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,422
Joined: Mar 2006
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UC, Liverpool
Location: The District
Post: #120
RE: Realistic Expectations for BB going forward (next 10 years)
(03-28-2018 08:02 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  Washington is absolutely a huge loss. But his defense clearly hurt us throughout the year. Shaq Morris absolutely abused him in the second game vs Wichita. Mick was constantly forced to either hide him on D or sit him on the bench. And don't give me that crap about how Mick only cares about his defense. Because he left Kyle in plenty of times when he was lazy getting back.

Count me as someone that doesn't understand the KW hate. Yeah, Shaq beat him in the post. He's a good player that probably did that to a lot of post defenders. i don't find that to be an indictment of KW. KW rebounded well and was a decent shot blocker. if anything, my biggest qualm is that KW could be baited into trying to block shots instead of staying home. i feel that led to a lot of second chance opps for guys he should have been boxing out.
 
03-28-2018 08:19 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2018 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2018 MyBB Group.