(03-20-2018 02:18 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

Quote:8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.

And this would have stopped the kids at school from being shot how? Oh yea, it was never really about the kids who were shot, was it?

Not to mention the fact that he's so ignorant on the subject to know there's already a minimum of 11% excise tax on every firearm and round of ammunition sold in this country.

(03-20-2018 02:54 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 02:18 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

Quote:8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.

And this would have stopped the kids at school from being shot how? Oh yea, it was never really about the kids who were shot, was it?

Not to mention the fact that he's so ignorant on the subject to know there's already a minimum of 11% excise tax on every firearm and round of ammunition sold in this country.

I think he's saying you pay a yearly tax on firearms. But that's only for law abiding citizens. What about those who didn't get their guns the legal way?

(03-20-2018 02:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 12:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Ok Tom what's the solution

1) Raise the legal age for firearms ownership to 21
2) Repeal stand your ground laws that encourage the escalation of disputes to shooting situations
3) Pass strict licensing requirements for multi-capacity firearms
4) Pass strict liability laws for incorrect storage of firearms. If you leave the gun where a kid can get it, you should be criminally liable for the impact of that
5) Strict recordkeeping of firearms, with a registry showing all the firearms and who is the responsible party
6) Trigger locks required if a child is in the home
7) Severe penalties for assisting in providing firearms to minors outside of the law. Or to persons who are not legally allowed to hold them
8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.

That should be a good start.

So, you really have no solution. Why not just say so?

(03-20-2018 02:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 12:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Ok Tom what's the solution

1) Raise the legal age for firearms ownership to 21
2) Repeal stand your ground laws that encourage the escalation of disputes to shooting situations
3) Pass strict licensing requirements for multi-capacity firearms
4) Pass strict liability laws for incorrect storage of firearms. If you leave the gun where a kid can get it, you should be criminally liable for the impact of that
5) Strict recordkeeping of firearms, with a registry showing all the firearms and who is the responsible party
6) Trigger locks required if a child is in the home
7) Severe penalties for assisting in providing firearms to minors outside of the law. Or to persons who are not legally allowed to hold them
8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.

That should be a good start.

1. Great, raise the voting age to that as well and the age requirement to join the military.

2. SYG was not a basis in this shooting or Parkland.

3. Define multi capacity.

4. Define correct storage. Is it in a locked box or gun safe?

5. What about for gang bangers in inner cities?

6. If a gun is secured properly, why do you need a trigger lock?

7. How do you define either of those?

8. There's already tax. Do you mean yearly tax on having such items? Can we do the same with alcohol? See number 5 again.

This kid should not have had a hand gun in the first place.

My comments in red.

(03-20-2018 03:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 02:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 12:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Ok Tom what's the solution

1) Raise the legal age for firearms ownership to 21
What would that accomplish?

2) Repeal stand your ground laws that encourage the escalation of disputes to shooting situations
3) Pass strict licensing requirements for multi-capacity firearms
4) Pass strict liability laws for incorrect storage of firearms. If you leave the gun where a kid can get it, you should be criminally liable for the impact of that
5) Strict recordkeeping of firearms, with a registry showing all the firearms and who is the responsible party
6) Trigger locks required if a child is in the home
7) Severe penalties for assisting in providing firearms to minors outside of the law. Or to persons who are not legally allowed to hold them
8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.
That should be a good start.

1. Great, raise the voting age to that as well and the age requirement to join the military.
2. SYG was not a basis in this shooting or Parkland. Or any other widely criticized shooting, including Trayvon Martin.
3. Define multi capacity.
And define strict licensing requirements.
4. Define correct storage. Is it in a locked box or gun safe?
5. What about for gang bangers in inner cities?
Additionally, what would that accomplish? Provide a convenient scapegoat in some situations, what else? I am not a fan of "guilty until proved innocent."

6. If a gun is secured properly, why do you need a trigger lock?
Good question.
7. How do you define either of those?
8. There's already tax. Do you mean yearly tax on having such items? Can we do the same with alcohol? See number 5 again.
Again, as with number 5, what would that accomplish? And how would you determine the amount of the tax? Keep in mind the poll tax precedents for taxing the exercise of a constitutional right.

(03-20-2018 03:30 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  This kid should not have had a hand gun in the first place.

Agreed.

I haven't seen it but where did he get it? Was it his? Did he swipe it from his parents?

Here's what I would propose:

1) A shooting license, analogous to a driving license. You go through a criminal background check, you take a safety course, you demonstrate understanding with written and performance tests. It can provide different levels, like CCL. And it is linked to the criminal database so that it can be suspended or revoked if the holder commits a violent or gun crime. Have learner's permits for underage. And you have to have it to buy or possess guns or ammo.

2) Get rid of some of the HIPAA privacty rules, and revise our whole approach to mental health. Change it from giving people pills to make them feel together, to identifying people who are legitimate threats to themselves or society, and taking actions to keep them from carrying it out.

3) Legalize or decriminalize marijuana and possibly other drugs. Gun violence spiked during Prohibition and declined thereafter. It is reasonable to expect the same from the War on Drugs.

4) Prohibit the declaration of any area as a "gun free zone" unless the property owner can restrict access and provide armed security.

Quote:Lone resource officer's quick action stopped the Maryland school shooter within seconds

The school shooting was over in seconds. But it could have dragged on longer and proven deadlier were it not for the rapid response of a school resource officer.

When a 17-year-old gunman walked into Maryland's Great Mills High School on Tuesday, the swift action of the school's sole resource officer, Blaine Gaskill, was instrumental in bringing the incident to a quick end.

Gaskill's response was hailed as an example of exactly what a resource officer is supposed to do in such a circumstance, particularly when contrasted to the actions of the security officer in last month's shooting in Parkland, Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/us/maryla...index.html

Another data point. Putting lead on cowardly spree shooters STOPS THE SPREE SHOOTING.

(03-20-2018 02:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 12:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Ok Tom what's the solution

1) Raise the legal age for firearms ownership to 21
From the standpoint of mass shootings, I suspect this does nothing. Most are older. And I imagine most young criminals steal their guns or buy them illegally. I'm not sure the data supports this. And without data, you can't justify discrimination. And I know how much you hate discrimination.

2) Repeal stand your ground laws that encourage the escalation of disputes to shooting situations
Stand your ground laws are basically about protecting homeowners from getting charged with a crime for shooting someone invading their property. These are good laws. And again, I don't think the data supports you.
3) Pass strict licensing requirements for multi-capacity firearms
You would have to be more specific. There are already some limits of this sort.
4) Pass strict liability laws for incorrect storage of firearms. If you leave the gun where a kid can get it, you should be criminally liable for the impact of that
I'm against criminalizing everything. But there could be something done here.
5) Strict recordkeeping of firearms, with a registry showing all the firearms and who is the responsible party
Don't really have a problem with this, but I don't think it helps with much.
6) Trigger locks required if a child is in the home
This is fine, but it helps with accidental deaths, not intentional.
7) Severe penalties for assisting in providing firearms to minors outside of the law. Or to persons who are not legally allowed to hold them
Think there are already laws dealing with this.
8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.
We already do that.
That should be a good start.

So while some of these things are fine, I'm not sure how much it accomplishes.

(03-20-2018 03:13 PM)gdunn Wrote:  What about those who didn't get their guns the legal way?

Obviously someone who wants to murder someone would stop because it would not be legal to obtain a firearm. duh... like... obviously.
All they wanted to do was murder someone... but damnit... I guess that pesky gun law means I wont be able to murder someone today.
/sarcasm

How people are so oblivious to the most obvious point in all this is beyond me.

Someone has decided to MURDER someone else, why do you think fear of violating a gun law will cause them to stop? And because apparently people are too dense to realize this...

Murder is illegal.

If you are ok with breaking the law to murder someone, you're not going to care one damn bit about breaking a gun law.

(03-20-2018 09:59 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:51 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Guys, this is getting ridiculous. Its not a 'victory' when a SRO has to shoot someone on a school campus. Its a victory when the number of these events is reduced. And these attacks have been increasing recently.

And stopping the sale of assault rifles will do nothing to stop it. It might reduce the number of fatalities. Or it might increase since they will use bombs instead, like in Austin.

We've tried the NRA method. More guns and more acceptance of gun violence.

Might want to check the correlation between number of firearms and the generic 'gun violence' stats

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using CSNbbs mobile app

(03-20-2018 05:17 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:59 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:51 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Guys, this is getting ridiculous. Its not a 'victory' when a SRO has to shoot someone on a school campus. Its a victory when the number of these events is reduced. And these attacks have been increasing recently.

And stopping the sale of assault rifles will do nothing to stop it. It might reduce the number of fatalities. Or it might increase since they will use bombs instead, like in Austin.

We've tried the NRA method. More guns and more acceptance of gun violence.

Might want to check the correlation between number of firearms and the generic 'gun violence' stats

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using CSNbbs mobile app

That would involve Lazytom actually educating himself about the subject. When have you known him to do that?

Far easier for him to just make outrageous statements based upon ignorance.

(03-20-2018 03:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's what I would propose:

1) A shooting license, analogous to a driving license. You go through a criminal background check, you take a safety course, you demonstrate understanding with written and performance tests. It can provide different levels, like CCL. And it is linked to the criminal database so that it can be suspended or revoked if the holder commits a violent or gun crime. Have learner's permits for underage. And you have to have it to buy or possess guns or ammo.

2) Get rid of some of the HIPAA privacty rules, and revise our whole approach to mental health. Change it from giving people pills to make them feel together, to identifying people who are legitimate threats to themselves or society, and taking actions to keep them from carrying it out.

3) Legalize or decriminalize marijuana and possibly other drugs. Gun violence spiked during Prohibition and declined thereafter. It is reasonable to expect the same from the War on Drugs.

4) Prohibit the declaration of any area as a "gun free zone" unless the property owner can restrict access and provide armed security.

While not personally in major conflict with any of these, I know people who would be. Not exactly the same people as are against Tom's proposals, but many of the same and for the same reasons.

1) permits for constitutional rights will hit a lot of people on the right and some on the left
2) Privacy will hit lots of the left
3) I agree... the far right won't.
4) sounds counter, much like a VAT not being regressive, but I like it.

How about we amend the Constitution to allow #1? One of the big problems is that what is reasonably needed in remote parts of Utah is vastly different from what is needed in Manhattan.

I'd keep the right to bear arms and allow the states to (reasonably) license it (at their expense) as they see fit. We can't make it so only the wealthy can have guns. That's unconstitutional in any other arena

#2, I just don't know. It's vastly easier to look back and see 'signs' than it is to project actions forward. We certainly don't want to discourage people from seeking help, and he right to privacy is a big one with mental health issues

Does anyone know the positioning of the SRO in this situation?

Since Tom opposes SYG I don't think he'd mind if someone walked up and tried to pick a fight with him, right ?

After all, he would be able to diffuse the situation because he is an all knowing liberal, not a knuckle dragger like everyone else.

Yeah. Thats what they always say until they're punched in the face by a thug punk.

(03-20-2018 05:12 PM)q5sys Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 03:13 PM)gdunn Wrote:  What about those who didn't get their guns the legal way?

Obviously someone who wants to murder someone would stop because it would not be legal to obtain a firearm. duh... like... obviously.
All they wanted to do was murder someone... but damnit... I guess that pesky gun law means I wont be able to murder someone today.
/sarcasm

How people are so oblivious to the most obvious point in all this is beyond me.

Someone has decided to MURDER someone else, why do you think fear of violating a gun law will cause them to stop? And because apparently people are too dense to realize this...

Murder is illegal.

If you are ok with breaking the law to murder someone, you're not going to care one damn bit about breaking a gun law.

XACLY!

one may even commit murder to obtain the weapon to commit more murder/death/kills....

the problem has become the lack of regard to law and life for some.....

this is nothing new.....

the only thing that has changed is the internutz that was once a communication modicum, is now the choice for most....

now people get to run their yammers 24/7/365.25 to 'insignificant others' instead of the bedroom and the water cooler....

I don't understand how that would ever create a social/cultural division among the masses......lmmfao....

(03-20-2018 02:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 12:28 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Ok Tom what's the solution

1) Raise the legal age for firearms ownership to 21
2) Repeal stand your ground laws that encourage the escalation of disputes to shooting situations
3) Pass strict licensing requirements for multi-capacity firearms
4) Pass strict liability laws for incorrect storage of firearms. If you leave the gun where a kid can get it, you should be criminally liable for the impact of that
5) Strict recordkeeping of firearms, with a registry showing all the firearms and who is the responsible party
6) Trigger locks required if a child is in the home
7) Severe penalties for assisting in providing firearms to minors outside of the law. Or to persons who are not legally allowed to hold them
8) Taxes on firearms and bullets.

That should be a good start.

1) The problem with "21" is that we've already blurred the line as to what constitutes and "adult". 18 to vote, 21 to drink, 26 to stay on Mommy & Daddy's insurance. Just when does a person officially become an adult? Then there's the issue (for those of us who ARE adults) as to why we should allow people who aren't mature enough to OWN a firearm to have input on firearms laws and vote for politicians who will be writing those laws.

2) Repealing stand your ground doesn't address the REAL issue, THE CRIMINAL. Taking away the rights of innocent, law-abiding people to protect them & theirs because it might escalate the criminal is completely backward. If anything we should do MORE to ensure people can protect themselves.

3) Anything but a single shot is a multi-capacity. That's nothing more than a backdoor approach to gun confiscation.

4) Just what is "incorrect storage"? Do you think that any firearm NOT stored unloaded in a gun safe with a trigger lock is "incorrect"? The whole point of having a firearm in the house to to be able to protect, something that can't be done if it takes 5 minutes to get said protection. How about teaching & training your kids on proper weapon handling? How about teaching your kids that a gun is NOT a toy, it's a deadly weapon that should be feared and respected, not played with.

5) Registry = Makes it easier to know who to round up once the gun grab begins. If I purchase a legal firearm in a legal manner, it's, quite frankly, none of your business what or how many I have.

6) See point 4. Proper education and training will do more good than trigger locks.

7) There are already laws on the books for that sort of situation. The key isn't passing more laws, it's making sure than when crimes are committed using a gun that judges use the maximum sentences and don't cut deals.

8) Sin taxes are nothing more than a revenue raising scam via government. It's, once again, just a backdoor approach to limiting the rights of legal, law abiding citizens.

Seems to me that many of the ideas you suggest would do nothing but infringe upon the rights of the law abiding person. Criminals already don't obey laws and it seems that they also care not for the consequences of disobeying those laws.

The only way to address the issue is to admit that we have a cultural problem. A problem when people feel it's OK to deal with their "issues" with a gun. To think it's OK to vent frustrations and anger by killing those perceived to be the source of those frustrations and anger. To believe it's perfectly acceptable to pop a cap on someone's azz because they "dissed" you. Until THOSE are addressed, it doesn't matter what laws are passed.

(03-20-2018 04:41 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

Quote:Lone resource officer's quick action stopped the Maryland school shooter within seconds

The school shooting was over in seconds. But it could have dragged on longer and proven deadlier were it not for the rapid response of a school resource officer.

When a 17-year-old gunman walked into Maryland's Great Mills High School on Tuesday, the swift action of the school's sole resource officer, Blaine Gaskill, was instrumental in bringing the incident to a quick end.

Gaskill's response was hailed as an example of exactly what a resource officer is supposed to do in such a circumstance, particularly when contrasted to the actions of the security officer in last month's shooting in Parkland, Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/20/us/maryla...index.html

I need to buy this guy a beer.

Kudos to him for stepping into a bad situation and keeping a level head to prevent further loss of life.

He's a hero.