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EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #21
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 03:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:53 PM)EmeryZach Wrote:  weaaaah weaaah weaaah said the professor. All these faculty members care about is themselves and their programs (which I understand), and they see athletics as an easy target. The most vocal of them grew up hating sports to begin with, so they are completely biased. The vocal ones usually didn't attend the university that they teach at and have no history of attending games or feeling any sort of connection to the athletic department. A lot of them have also had some bad interactions with athletes in their classes that have also swayed their view of things.

I've had discussions in person and via email with a number of anti-sports professors at UMass and they are all a bunch of whiny idiots who simply want more money for their programs and think if they whine about the athletic department budget then maybe the school will give them some extra money to be quiet.

Oh, and they also all refuse to even come to a tailgate or game and try to understand why athletics are so important to a university community.

Isn't UMass one of the worst cases of a bloated athletic budget?
UMass also has lacrosse, ice hockey, baseball teams, which have expenses which few fb schools would even attempt. Think that is quite commendable.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2018 04:05 PM by NoDak.)
03-16-2018 04:05 PM
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Post: #22
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 12:23 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  EMU is the poster child for a school that either needs to drop athletics all together, or at least drop football

Dropping football, moving to the Horizon would be a good move, IMHO
Yes.

But the faculty is usually opposed to athletics. Rutgers has had the same type of opposition.
03-16-2018 08:02 PM
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Post: #23
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 12:58 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  This is going to come to a head, and soon, at many of our schools.

I don't know. I've been expecting it for 15 years, but more and more keep joining FBS. Idaho is the only one who has moved down. I thought Akron would drop football when they had to do something about their stadium, but they built a new stadium.
03-16-2018 08:04 PM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
EMU would fit well in the Horizon, especially if UIC gets into the MVC. Poor Ft Wayne, they could lose their spot. MAC should not backfill, just go with 11 until the next school drops football. Ball St, Kent, BG could be next.
03-16-2018 09:33 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #25
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 09:33 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  EMU would fit well in the Horizon, especially if UIC gets into the MVC. Poor Ft Wayne, they could lose their spot. MAC should not backfill, just go with 11 until the next school drops football. Ball St, Kent, BG could be next.

MAC could go with ODU FB-Only with their other sports in the A10.

Akron
Buffalo
Kent St
Miami
ODU
Ohio

Ball St.
Bowling Green
Central Michigan
Northern Illinois
Toledo
Western Michigan
03-16-2018 09:39 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
EMU students and Faculty want them to drop football and go down to D-II. That would cut the budget from $30M/year to about $5M/year. No shock the Athletic department vehemently opposes the majority opinion.

As for who the MAC would get for a replacement should EMU drop out, one school stands out, James Madison.
03-17-2018 04:00 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 08:04 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 12:58 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  This is going to come to a head, and soon, at many of our schools.

I don't know. I've been expecting it for 15 years, but more and more keep joining FBS. Idaho is the only one who has moved down. I thought Akron would drop football when they had to do something about their stadium, but they built a new stadium.

I think that is because the admins see the 'advertisement' of FBS as some sort of panacea that will allow them to remain viable by attracting more students. Instead of taking Idaho's approach, many of these places are going to the doors close.
03-17-2018 07:03 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #28
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 04:05 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 03:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:53 PM)EmeryZach Wrote:  weaaaah weaaah weaaah said the professor. All these faculty members care about is themselves and their programs (which I understand), and they see athletics as an easy target. The most vocal of them grew up hating sports to begin with, so they are completely biased. The vocal ones usually didn't attend the university that they teach at and have no history of attending games or feeling any sort of connection to the athletic department. A lot of them have also had some bad interactions with athletes in their classes that have also swayed their view of things.

I've had discussions in person and via email with a number of anti-sports professors at UMass and they are all a bunch of whiny idiots who simply want more money for their programs and think if they whine about the athletic department budget then maybe the school will give them some extra money to be quiet.

Oh, and they also all refuse to even come to a tailgate or game and try to understand why athletics are so important to a university community.

Isn't UMass one of the worst cases of a bloated athletic budget?
UMass also has lacrosse, ice hockey, baseball teams, which have expenses which few fb schools would even attempt. Think that is quite commendable.

You think it is "quite commendable" that UMass funds these expensive sports that probably draw flies even among their own students and alumni while the academic "side" (funny term for the entire reason for the university's actual existence) suffers massive transfers and now cuts to fund these sports?

Exactly who benefits from them, aside from the relative handful of students who are on the teams, and the coaches and staff who draw salaries for them?

IMO, that's weird. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2018 07:11 AM by quo vadis.)
03-17-2018 07:10 AM
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Post: #29
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
If Eastern Michigan is eight miles from Ann Arbor, why does the school even exist?

The school should have been merged with Oakland and/or Michigan. Send the football team to Oakland and they could have played in Pontiac (too late for that now). Let EMU-Oakland maintain an extension center alongside Michigan on EMU’s current campus.

Alternatively, merge EMU with Wayne State. Expand Adams Field from 6,000 to 16,000, and move bigger games to Ford Field.
03-17-2018 07:42 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #30
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-16-2018 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think this realignment talk, which always come sup, completely misses the point. It's a fans attempt at deflection from the reality that G5 and much of D-I athletics simply do not pay for themselves. There are a half dozen G5 programs running massive deficits, and another three dozen running deficits about half of what EMU runs. These have a corrosive effect on the University, draining it of much needed resources in times of challenge.

There is a definite regional and ethnic differences in tolerance. Southerners, Texans and African-Americans have a much higher tolerance for athletic "welfare" transfers from money earmarked for education. That is quickly apparent on this board. But it's also apparent in attendance declines and concussion issues as well. For whatever reason the South seems to be a decade or so behind the curve of the rest of the nation.

At places like EMU and UMass the pro sports welfare lobby is laid naked with near universal faculty opposition and little to no student support for it either. But school leaders fear the wrath of the sports lobby, especially football. The faculty protests may swing the balance at EMU, as it provides a larger counter lobby.

Can we be frank? Universities, especially the faculty, have been the one place that has been immune from the demand of increaased efficiency,better results, and demands for improved productivity that are found in the private sector. Increases in Education costs have vastly exceeded the inflation rate. Athletics isn’t the reason for that. Tons of administrative fat and lots of overpaid faculty who don’t really teach is much of the cause.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2018 02:57 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-17-2018 09:20 AM
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Post: #31
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 09:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think this realignment talk, which always come sup, completely misses the point. It's a fans attempt at deflection from the reality that G5 and much of D-I athletics simply do not pay for themselves. There are a half dozen G5 programs running massive deficits, and another three dozen running deficits about half of what EMU runs. These have a corrosive effect on the University, draining it of much needed resources in times of challenge.

There is a definite regional and ethnic differences in tolerance. Southerners, Texans and African-Americans have a much higher tolerance for athletic "welfare" transfers from money earmarked for education. That is quickly apparent on this board. But it's also apparent in attendance declines and concussion issues as well. For whatever reason the South seems to be a decade or so behind the curve of the rest of the nation.

At places like EMU and UMass the pro sports welfare lobby is laid naked with near universal faculty opposition and little to no student support for it either. But school leaders fear the wrath of the sports lobby, especially football. The faculty protests may swing the balance at EMU, as it provides a larger counter lobby.

Can we be frank? Universities, especially the faculty, have been the one place that has been immune from the demand of increaased efficiency,better results, and demands for improved productivity that are found in the private sector. Increases in Education costs have vastly exceeded the inflation rate. Athletics isn’t the reason for that. Tons of administrative fat and lots of overpaid faculty who don’t reslly teach is much of the cause.

While "private sector efficiency" is a cherished American myth, so's the idea that football and teaching are two ends of a zero-sum game. Most university-level teaching (76 percent according to AAUP) is done by adjuncts: contractors paid by the course. $2,000 per course for teaching plus office hours plus often ******** meetings plus an expectation of 24/7 availability via social media. It works out to about $12/hour for someone with a Ph.D. (though often a pulse is all that's actually required).

So, kill football, "save" $20 million, add 600 courses (EMU taught about 6,000 this semester). Yee haw, we done saved western civilization. We spent $1.2 million. Where did the other $18.8m go? Seventy-five more assistant associate deans to sign those contracts, at 250K per.

Want to require more accountability? Great. They'll hire a new vice assistant senior provost at $400K to look into that.
03-17-2018 10:28 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #32
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 10:28 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(03-17-2018 09:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think this realignment talk, which always come sup, completely misses the point. It's a fans attempt at deflection from the reality that G5 and much of D-I athletics simply do not pay for themselves. There are a half dozen G5 programs running massive deficits, and another three dozen running deficits about half of what EMU runs. These have a corrosive effect on the University, draining it of much needed resources in times of challenge.

There is a definite regional and ethnic differences in tolerance. Southerners, Texans and African-Americans have a much higher tolerance for athletic "welfare" transfers from money earmarked for education. That is quickly apparent on this board. But it's also apparent in attendance declines and concussion issues as well. For whatever reason the South seems to be a decade or so behind the curve of the rest of the nation.

At places like EMU and UMass the pro sports welfare lobby is laid naked with near universal faculty opposition and little to no student support for it either. But school leaders fear the wrath of the sports lobby, especially football. The faculty protests may swing the balance at EMU, as it provides a larger counter lobby.

Can we be frank? Universities, especially the faculty, have been the one place that has been immune from the demand of increaased efficiency,better results, and demands for improved productivity that are found in the private sector. Increases in Education costs have vastly exceeded the inflation rate. Athletics isn’t the reason for that. Tons of administrative fat and lots of overpaid faculty who don’t reslly teach is much of the cause.

While "private sector efficiency" is a cherished American myth, so's the idea that football and teaching are two ends of a zero-sum game. Most university-level teaching (76 percent according to AAUP) is done by adjuncts: contractors paid by the course. $2,000 per course for teaching plus office hours plus often ******** meetings plus an expectation of 24/7 availability via social media. It works out to about $12/hour for someone with a Ph.D. (though often a pulse is all that's actually required).

So, kill football, "save" $20 million, add 600 courses (EMU taught about 6,000 this semester). Yee haw, we done saved western civilization. We spent $1.2 million. Where did the other $18.8m go? Seventy-five more assistant associate deans to sign those contracts, at 250K per.

Want to require more accountability? Great. They'll hire a new vice assistant senior provost at $400K to look into that.

Lol. Kill all athletics and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. The faculty would be whining within a year or two that they need more money. Honestly, if you really want to be effeicient, dump the whole university system and take everything on-line. You could bring the cost waaaaaaaay down and most of your whining faculty would have to find real jobs in the private sector. That’s how you bring costs down if your REALLY worried about the student. The faculty isn’t worried about the student. They are trying to drum up more money for more cushy tenured faculty jobs.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2018 03:31 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-17-2018 02:53 PM
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Post: #33
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 02:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  They are trying to drum up more money for more cushy tenured faculty jobs.

Not really. They've made it into the lifeboat and they're madly whacking all the non-tenure-track with oars and tossing chum into the water, to make sure no one rocks the boat.

It's not for "more cushy tenured faculty jobs." It's for more perks to those who already have them.
03-17-2018 03:39 PM
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Post: #34
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 04:00 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  EMU students and Faculty want them to drop football and go down to D-II. That would cut the budget from $30M/year to about $5M/year. No shock the Athletic department vehemently opposes the majority opinion.

As for who the MAC would get for a replacement should EMU drop out, one school stands out, James Madison.

WKU, Marshall and Old Dominion would be possibilities. They would probably take any two of them now even without losing a school.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2018 04:12 PM by bullet.)
03-17-2018 04:12 PM
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Post: #35
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
Can anyone provide a public university that dropped football that is now rolling in the dough- now able to pay their faculty and staff top wages, in the Black in athletics, etc
03-17-2018 04:35 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #36
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 09:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think this realignment talk, which always come sup, completely misses the point. It's a fans attempt at deflection from the reality that G5 and much of D-I athletics simply do not pay for themselves. There are a half dozen G5 programs running massive deficits, and another three dozen running deficits about half of what EMU runs. These have a corrosive effect on the University, draining it of much needed resources in times of challenge.

There is a definite regional and ethnic differences in tolerance. Southerners, Texans and African-Americans have a much higher tolerance for athletic "welfare" transfers from money earmarked for education. That is quickly apparent on this board. But it's also apparent in attendance declines and concussion issues as well. For whatever reason the South seems to be a decade or so behind the curve of the rest of the nation.

At places like EMU and UMass the pro sports welfare lobby is laid naked with near universal faculty opposition and little to no student support for it either. But school leaders fear the wrath of the sports lobby, especially football. The faculty protests may swing the balance at EMU, as it provides a larger counter lobby.

Can we be frank? Universities, especially the faculty, have been the one place that has been immune from the demand of increaased efficiency,better results, and demands for improved productivity that are found in the private sector. Increases in Education costs have vastly exceeded the inflation rate. Athletics isn’t the reason for that. Tons of administrative fat and lots of overpaid faculty who don’t reslly teach is much of the cause.

For better or worse, faculty teach students and conduct research, which is the mission of a "university".

Athletics is totally tangential, and at schools like EMU the argument that the enormous sums that are taken from academics to subsidize it are made up for in "brand recognition" or "alumni donations" or "the front porch of the school" is preposterous.

You have hit on the core though: Administrative costs have soared at colleges the past 20 years even more than athletic costs, and these bloated admins love athletics, it feeds their ego.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2018 05:59 PM by quo vadis.)
03-17-2018 05:59 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 10:28 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(03-17-2018 09:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-16-2018 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I think this realignment talk, which always come sup, completely misses the point. It's a fans attempt at deflection from the reality that G5 and much of D-I athletics simply do not pay for themselves. There are a half dozen G5 programs running massive deficits, and another three dozen running deficits about half of what EMU runs. These have a corrosive effect on the University, draining it of much needed resources in times of challenge.

There is a definite regional and ethnic differences in tolerance. Southerners, Texans and African-Americans have a much higher tolerance for athletic "welfare" transfers from money earmarked for education. That is quickly apparent on this board. But it's also apparent in attendance declines and concussion issues as well. For whatever reason the South seems to be a decade or so behind the curve of the rest of the nation.

At places like EMU and UMass the pro sports welfare lobby is laid naked with near universal faculty opposition and little to no student support for it either. But school leaders fear the wrath of the sports lobby, especially football. The faculty protests may swing the balance at EMU, as it provides a larger counter lobby.

Can we be frank? Universities, especially the faculty, have been the one place that has been immune from the demand of increaased efficiency,better results, and demands for improved productivity that are found in the private sector. Increases in Education costs have vastly exceeded the inflation rate. Athletics isn’t the reason for that. Tons of administrative fat and lots of overpaid faculty who don’t reslly teach is much of the cause.

While "private sector efficiency" is a cherished American myth, so's the idea that football and teaching are two ends of a zero-sum game. Most university-level teaching (76 percent according to AAUP) is done by adjuncts: contractors paid by the course. $2,000 per course for teaching plus office hours plus often ******** meetings plus an expectation of 24/7 availability via social media. It works out to about $12/hour for someone with a Ph.D. (though often a pulse is all that's actually required).

So, kill football, "save" $20 million, add 600 courses (EMU taught about 6,000 this semester). Yee haw, we done saved western civilization. We spent $1.2 million. Where did the other $18.8m go? Seventy-five more assistant associate deans to sign those contracts, at 250K per.

Want to require more accountability? Great. They'll hire a new vice assistant senior provost at $400K to look into that.

This argument is known as the "Appeal to consequences" fallacy. There was never a specified remedy. And you argument is that the remedy would be no good. You also threw in a good dose of misleading vividness (bravo!). It does not at all address the concern of misused resources, so you could say it's an irrelevant conclusion.

Your $400K post to oversee is a straw man. All I called for in my commentary was a change in the reporting format. Giving certain line items a separate line in the report rather than lumped together as now is the case with attendance and DoE Equity in Sports reporting. I hardly see how already collected data being formatted differently in a spreadsheet report would make 2 cents difference.

As for the misapplication of funds, I might suggest best use of money may simply be to not spend it, so not have the student incur extra debt or the taxpayers give the school as much, whichever is the chosen "victim" to receive remedy.

As for the decline at EMU, certainly had the money been kept at the university and applied to more relevant offerings that attracted additional students that would be worthwhile. In general public schools have proven rather poor at changing with the times and adjusting their course and major offerings to fit the needs of prospective students. And this might not actually require more resources anyway, rather change in allocation. And demographics for EMU may doom it anyway. But none of that is relevant to wasting money on athletics not enough people care about to justify the cost.

Message boards are great for getting every sort of logic fallacy thrown at you.
03-17-2018 06:13 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #38
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 03:39 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(03-17-2018 02:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  They are trying to drum up more money for more cushy tenured faculty jobs.

Not really. They've made it into the lifeboat and they're madly whacking all the non-tenure-track with oars and tossing chum into the water, to make sure no one rocks the boat.

It's not for "more cushy tenured faculty jobs." It's for more perks to those who already have them.

lol...ok---you certainly have point there (nice imagery by the way). 04-cheers
03-17-2018 06:33 PM
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Post: #39
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 07:42 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  If Eastern Michigan is eight miles from Ann Arbor, why does the school even exist?

The school should have been merged with Oakland and/or Michigan. Send the football team to Oakland and they could have played in Pontiac (too late for that now). Let EMU-Oakland maintain an extension center alongside Michigan on EMU’s current campus.

Alternatively, merge EMU with Wayne State. Expand Adams Field from 6,000 to 16,000, and move bigger games to Ford Field.

This why waste so much money for a school when another public school is right down the road? In NC we need to drop several Public schools. For example we don’t need Western and UNC Asheville we just need one school to serve that region. Same goes for UNC Pembroke and Fayetteville State. EC State also needs to be closed down. We also don’t need three public schools in the triangle. NC State and UNC is enough. Not sure if we still need NC Central.
03-17-2018 07:07 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: EMU sports front and center is faculty protest over cuts and layoffs
(03-17-2018 07:07 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  
(03-17-2018 07:42 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  If Eastern Michigan is eight miles from Ann Arbor, why does the school even exist?

The school should have been merged with Oakland and/or Michigan. Send the football team to Oakland and they could have played in Pontiac (too late for that now). Let EMU-Oakland maintain an extension center alongside Michigan on EMU’s current campus.

Alternatively, merge EMU with Wayne State. Expand Adams Field from 6,000 to 16,000, and move bigger games to Ford Field.

This why waste so much money for a school when another public school is right down the road? In NC we need to drop several Public schools. For example we don’t need Western and UNC Asheville we just need one school to serve that region. Same goes for UNC Pembroke and Fayetteville State. EC State also needs to be closed down. We also don’t need three public schools in the triangle. NC State and UNC is enough. Not sure if we still need NC Central.

Sounds like you want NC to go through a consolidation like the Univ System of Georgia is implementing.
03-17-2018 07:26 PM
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