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What are the mid-majors to do?
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stever20 Online
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Post: #61
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 02:24 PM)YNot Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:10 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:07 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  Try to join better leagues and make leagues smaller. CUSA is too big at 14. MWC is fine with 12 if they add Gonzaga. Mid major leagues should be at 10. Lesser chance to play the worst teams in your conference.

Mid majors must play on the road, no matter how it effects you financially. Better to play at Northwestern and lose than play Northwestern St at home and win.

Actually you have it backwards....

If the WCC added 2 teams(lets say Grand Canyon and New Mexico St). keeps everyone else, including Gonzaga.

Gonzaga's SOS goes up considerably- given now they don't have to play the bottom 4 teams a 2nd time. HUGE difference in SOS.

Except, you would need a system in place that ensures that the top teams play each other twice - or at least that the top teams don't play the bottom teams twice. How do you administer such a system? It would potentially help to get better matchups in the conference tournament.

You generally know. I mean look at the AAC. Cincy and Wichita didn't play either of USF or ECU 2x this year. They also missed Tulane 2x, who was the only other team that was outside the top 125 in RPI this year from the AAC.
03-13-2018 02:45 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #62
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 02:29 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:10 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:07 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  Try to join better leagues and make leagues smaller. CUSA is too big at 14. MWC is fine with 12 if they add Gonzaga. Mid major leagues should be at 10. Lesser chance to play the worst teams in your conference.

Mid majors must play on the road, no matter how it effects you financially. Better to play at Northwestern and lose than play Northwestern St at home and win.

Actually you have it backwards....

If the WCC added 2 teams(lets say Grand Canyon and New Mexico St). keeps everyone else, including Gonzaga.

Gonzaga's SOS goes up considerably- given now they don't have to play the bottom 4 teams a 2nd time. HUGE difference in SOS.

That would give them 12 teams, are they going to play 22 conference games? Highly unlikely. That would be assuming they would play BYU, St Mary's, NMSU, and GCU home and home each season. Surely, the others teams would want some of that action, especially since GCU and NMSU would by far be Gonzaga's longest road trips.

No, they wouldn't play 22 conference games. You want to play Gonzaga 2x, get off your ass and start competiting and don't be in the 280's in RPI.
03-13-2018 02:46 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #63
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 02:30 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:24 PM)YNot Wrote:  Except, you would need a system in place that ensures that the top teams play each other twice - or at least that the top teams don't play the bottom teams twice. How do you administer such a system? It would potentially help to get better matchups in the conference tournament.

Conference offices have gotten pretty good at doing this in the A-10 and other oversized leagues.

I don't think that the SOS bump is enough to make the difference between Gonzaga getting an at-large and getting left out if they lose in the WCC tournamnet, but Stever20's pretty good at this.

Quietly reserving a few at-larges for the bottom 25 leagues would do the same job, without continuing realignment at the bottom, killing the WAC. Actually, worse than killing the WAC from the power conferences' point of view is the bottom leagues surviving by bringing in yet another wave of callups. (That's enough to balance out 2-3-4 credits a year though)

actually a lot of times that SOS bump would be good enough. Their SOS taking out the bottom 4 games, and adding in NMSU and GC- goes up from 125 to 63. And that doesn't even take into account the conference tourney at all, which would have been an improvement. RPI with even a loss to NMSU on the road goes up from 21 to 10.

For St Mary's same thing.

I think you could make a fair arguement if they do this - the WCC would have gone from a 1 bid conference to a 3 bid conference. St Mary's gets in, and New Mexico St does as well. Gonzaga see's their seed improve by at least 1 up to a 3 seed, if not a 2 seed.
03-13-2018 02:56 PM
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Post: #64
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 02:07 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  Try to join better leagues and make leagues smaller. CUSA is too big at 14. MWC is fine with 12 if they add Gonzaga. Mid major leagues should be at 10. Lesser chance to play the worst teams in your conference.

Mid majors must play on the road, no matter how it effects you financially. Better to play at Northwestern and lose than play Northwestern St at home and win.

It's funny that even with an RPI anchor in Chicago State, the WAC has among the better RPI's among non-majors because of its small size.
03-13-2018 03:37 PM
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Post: #65
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 03:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 02:07 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  Try to join better leagues and make leagues smaller. CUSA is too big at 14. MWC is fine with 12 if they add Gonzaga. Mid major leagues should be at 10. Lesser chance to play the worst teams in your conference.

Mid majors must play on the road, no matter how it effects you financially. Better to play at Northwestern and lose than play Northwestern St at home and win.

It's funny that even with an RPI anchor in Chicago State, the WAC has among the better RPI's among non-majors because of its small size.

Exactly. Look at the SLC, 13 teams and had 5 teams 298 or higher. 13 teams for 1 bid. Big Sky has 12 teams. No reason for WCC or any other league to add teams. Adding teams only makes sense for the Power leagues and some others. MEAC is losing 2 this year, no reason to add anymore.
03-13-2018 04:33 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #66
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
10 seems to be the ideal place to be for a basketball league. You can pull off just 9 if you can get decent OOC games and you trust your conference mates not to dart, leaving everyone else in a lurch.
03-13-2018 08:47 PM
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Post: #67
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
11 in basketball.

8 in football.

To maximize in this day and age.

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03-13-2018 09:24 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #68
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  10 seems to be the ideal place to be for a basketball league. You can pull off just 9 if you can get decent OOC games and you trust your conference mates not to dart, leaving everyone else in a lurch.

It's about to be 11 or 12, because all the big dogs are starting to expand their conference schedules to 20 games - the Big Ten starts next year, then the ACC, and the Pac-12 is thinking about it, as is the SEC. That means fewer guarantee games, which means fewer quality opponents available. Sure, beating up on one D2 or NAIA school a year is fine for mid-majors, but three? Every year? Adding schools to the conference ensures games of a certain quality, both home and away, for a greater part of the season. Scheduling alliances like the Summit-Big Sky series starting next year also help, but they are a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to get mid-majors and power schools to play one another except in postseason tournaments. I do fear we're moving toward a I-A/I-AA dichotomy in Olympic sports, where the FBS leagues plus the Big East, A10, and maybe the Missouri Valley (but they're a stretch) form the top division and leave everyone else behind to compete for a separate championship that doesn't give them nearly the revenue or national TV access.
03-13-2018 09:38 PM
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Post: #69
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 09:38 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  10 seems to be the ideal place to be for a basketball league. You can pull off just 9 if you can get decent OOC games and you trust your conference mates not to dart, leaving everyone else in a lurch.

It's about to be 11 or 12, because all the big dogs are starting to expand their conference schedules to 20 games - the Big Ten starts next year, then the ACC, and the Pac-12 is thinking about it, as is the SEC. That means fewer guarantee games, which means fewer quality opponents available. Sure, beating up on one D2 or NAIA school a year is fine for mid-majors, but three? Every year? Adding schools to the conference ensures games of a certain quality, both home and away, for a greater part of the season. Scheduling alliances like the Summit-Big Sky series starting next year also help, but they are a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to get mid-majors and power schools to play one another except in postseason tournaments. I do fear we're moving toward a I-A/I-AA dichotomy in Olympic sports, where the FBS leagues plus the Big East, A10, and maybe the Missouri Valley (but they're a stretch) form the top division and leave everyone else behind to compete for a separate championship that doesn't give them nearly the revenue or national TV access.

This is where being in a G5 puts you ahead of the game.

UT-Arlington realized it and got into the SBC.

Wichita St. realized it and joined the AAC.

Gonzaga sees the writing on the wall and is proposing to join the MWC.
03-14-2018 05:17 AM
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Post: #70
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 09:38 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to get mid-majors and power schools to play one another except in postseason tournaments. I do fear we're moving toward a I-A/I-AA dichotomy in Olympic sports, where the FBS leagues plus the Big East, A10, and maybe the Missouri Valley (but they're a stretch) form the top division and leave everyone else behind to compete for a separate championship that doesn't give them nearly the revenue or national TV access.

I think this might be inevitable--the Georgetown athletic department is not the same type of business operation as the George Washington athletic department. Maybe The Powers That Be--on all sides--need to come to terms with that, and figure out how much welfare the lower half-to-three-fourths of Division I needs to keep the Tournament healthy and keep the lower half of the BCS conferences supplied with reasonable buy-games.

By "keep the tournament healthy" I mean provide the power conference teams with plausible contenders for those first-round games--the 64 team bracket is magic, and you do not let too much daylight shine on it. A bunch of teams you've never heard of, or only hear of once a year at tournament time, but with glittering records, one or two of which actually makes some noise, is the formula that has worked for March Madness over the last 30 years.

Not a separate championship which would provide the lower tier of Division I with zero business benefits, but a few more at-larges anyway, would preserve the illusion that the lower-tier leagues matter and that beating them in a 5-12 or 6-11 game means anything.

(03-14-2018 05:17 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  This is where being in a G5 puts you ahead of the game.

UT-Arlington realized it and got into the SBC.

Wichita St. realized it and joined the AAC.

Gonzaga sees the writing on the wall and is proposing to join the MWC.

Just being in a G5 doesn't get you squat. The Sun Belt hasn't gotten an at large bid in how many years? I don't see the Blue Raiders in my bracket. MAC has about as many at-large bids as BCS/NY6 games the last 10 years.

Gonzaga is exploring teaming up with UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State and to some extent Nevada and Boise State, which have the history (or recent success) which creates the donor base to try to keep up. But the Mountain WEst has been more of a one-bid league than a power conference since the last wave of realignment.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2018 07:28 AM by johnbragg.)
03-14-2018 07:25 AM
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Post: #71
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
It's just going through a down cycle, it's a million times better than the AAC.
03-14-2018 08:48 AM
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Post: #72
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 09:38 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(03-13-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  10 seems to be the ideal place to be for a basketball league. You can pull off just 9 if you can get decent OOC games and you trust your conference mates not to dart, leaving everyone else in a lurch.

It's about to be 11 or 12, because all the big dogs are starting to expand their conference schedules to 20 games - the Big Ten starts next year, then the ACC, and the Pac-12 is thinking about it, as is the SEC. That means fewer guarantee games, which means fewer quality opponents available. Sure, beating up on one D2 or NAIA school a year is fine for mid-majors, but three? Every year? Adding schools to the conference ensures games of a certain quality, both home and away, for a greater part of the season. Scheduling alliances like the Summit-Big Sky series starting next year also help, but they are a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to get mid-majors and power schools to play one another except in postseason tournaments. I do fear we're moving toward a I-A/I-AA dichotomy in Olympic sports, where the FBS leagues plus the Big East, A10, and maybe the Missouri Valley (but they're a stretch) form the top division and leave everyone else behind to compete for a separate championship that doesn't give them nearly the revenue or national TV access.

I see what you did there.
03-14-2018 08:50 AM
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Post: #73
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-12-2018 07:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 05:38 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 04:16 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 04:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With the selection committee showing an increasing level of favoritism towards the major conferences and at-large bids among the mid-majors being increasingly difficult to come by what are the midmajors who value basketball to do?

Wichita St has fled to the AAC. Gonzaga seems poised to run to the MWC for sanctuary (and are praying BYU will follow).

Is it time for the best of those left behind to try to band together into a new league to try and hang on?

Mark Adams, who covers a lot of games on ESPN 3, has made a suggestion in the past that the stronger mid-majors form an out of conference scheduling alliance. He further suggests these schools avoid the Blue Blood basketball programs and selectively attack the lower tier P5 schools whom they are capable of beating; thus improving their RPI and having the head to head victory over the lower tier P5 schools. He believes this is a recipe for a midmajor to wrestle a bid away from a "lesser" P5 school. Easier said that done I know.

That's almost exactly what MT did. Played a H&H with FGCU this season (who turned out to no be that great), annual games with Murray St., Belmont. Then played Vandy, Ole Miss, USC, Auburn & Miami. Ended with an RPI of 33.

They were 4-6 vs RPI top 100 teams. 1-4 of that being OOC. It's great they play those good games- but you have to you know actually win those games.

FSU was 8-10 vs top 100 and had an OOC SOS rank of 313.
03-14-2018 11:41 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #74
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-14-2018 11:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 07:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 05:38 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 04:16 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 04:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With the selection committee showing an increasing level of favoritism towards the major conferences and at-large bids among the mid-majors being increasingly difficult to come by what are the midmajors who value basketball to do?

Wichita St has fled to the AAC. Gonzaga seems poised to run to the MWC for sanctuary (and are praying BYU will follow).

Is it time for the best of those left behind to try to band together into a new league to try and hang on?

Mark Adams, who covers a lot of games on ESPN 3, has made a suggestion in the past that the stronger mid-majors form an out of conference scheduling alliance. He further suggests these schools avoid the Blue Blood basketball programs and selectively attack the lower tier P5 schools whom they are capable of beating; thus improving their RPI and having the head to head victory over the lower tier P5 schools. He believes this is a recipe for a midmajor to wrestle a bid away from a "lesser" P5 school. Easier said that done I know.

That's almost exactly what MT did. Played a H&H with FGCU this season (who turned out to no be that great), annual games with Murray St., Belmont. Then played Vandy, Ole Miss, USC, Auburn & Miami. Ended with an RPI of 33.

They were 4-6 vs RPI top 100 teams. 1-4 of that being OOC. It's great they play those good games- but you have to you know actually win those games.

FSU was 8-10 vs top 100 and had an OOC SOS rank of 313.

So a better winning percentage vs top 100 teams, and 8 more games. Also MTSU had 3 q 3/4 losses. FSU had 1.

MTSU beat 1 team in the NCAA tourney this year- Murray St. FSU beat 6- with 2 of those 6 away.
03-14-2018 11:52 AM
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Post: #75
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-14-2018 11:52 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-14-2018 11:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 07:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 05:38 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-12-2018 04:16 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Mark Adams, who covers a lot of games on ESPN 3, has made a suggestion in the past that the stronger mid-majors form an out of conference scheduling alliance. He further suggests these schools avoid the Blue Blood basketball programs and selectively attack the lower tier P5 schools whom they are capable of beating; thus improving their RPI and having the head to head victory over the lower tier P5 schools. He believes this is a recipe for a midmajor to wrestle a bid away from a "lesser" P5 school. Easier said that done I know.

That's almost exactly what MT did. Played a H&H with FGCU this season (who turned out to no be that great), annual games with Murray St., Belmont. Then played Vandy, Ole Miss, USC, Auburn & Miami. Ended with an RPI of 33.

They were 4-6 vs RPI top 100 teams. 1-4 of that being OOC. It's great they play those good games- but you have to you know actually win those games.

FSU was 8-10 vs top 100 and had an OOC SOS rank of 313.

So a better winning percentage vs top 100 teams, and 8 more games. Also MTSU had 3 q 3/4 losses. FSU had 1.

MTSU beat 1 team in the NCAA tourney this year- Murray St. FSU beat 6- with 2 of those 6 away.

This is kinda the crux of the issue though. FSU had a lot more opportunity to beat good teams and are more easily forgiven for their losses. The way it's set up there a few opportunities for mid majors better teams so you've got to be nearly perfect in those games and heaven help you if you drop a conference game so you have to be near perfect there too. If that's the case then the least we can do is give the mid majors the benefit of the doubt. FSU had plenty of opportunity to display their mediocrity. Having watched the two play I think it's pretty clear that MT was the better team.
03-14-2018 12:17 PM
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Post: #76
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
looking-
Middle Tenn. (RPI: 33 KPI: 49, SOR: 47, AVG: 43) (BPI: 48, POM: 52, SAG: 64, AVG: 54.67) ( AVG: 48.83)
Florida St. (RPI: 54 KPI: 46, SOR: 39, AVG: 46.33) (BPI: 39, POM: 35, SAG: 34, AVG: 36) ( AVG: 41.17)
so looking at it- the ONLY metric where MTSU was ahead was in the RPI. EVERY other metric had FSU ahead. And all but 1 of the 6 FSU was up by at least 8 slots.
03-14-2018 12:26 PM
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RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
I think the A10 members need to just keep investing in basketball and in the end they will be ok. VCU built a $25M Basketball Center, Richmond just announced their own $15M Basketball Center. UMass opened a $30M Champions Center. GMU is converting an old gym into a basketball only center.

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03-14-2018 01:35 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-13-2018 02:03 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  On the other hand, a "soft ban" on at-large bids with losing records in-conference. (9-9 and one-and-done, maybe okay. 8-10 and 2-1, out in the semis vs a top four seed, maybe okay. 8-10 and one-and-done--NIT).

I have ALWAYS agreed with the sub-.500 conference record soft ban. It's a divisive topic, but, when it comes down to it, while there are usually some decent wins in the record, there's some iffy losses, too. And then it resorts to qualifying the kind of wins and losses versus others in the field, and then the conference record gets tossed. Because "who you beat" has always pretty much trumped all.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2018 03:06 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-14-2018 02:57 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #79
RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
(03-14-2018 08:50 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I see what you did there.

Hey, somebody's still gotta lose. You didn't think the power schools were going to schedule each other for body bag games, did you?
03-14-2018 05:25 PM
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RE: What are the mid-majors to do?
@The Cutter

Yeah, imagine that, who you beat matters. Oklahoma State beat more future NCAA Tournament teams, let alone highly seeded NCAA Tournament teams in the last 40 days of the regular season than Middle did all season and by a wide margin. They also had zero losses to non-Tournament teams all season, except Baylor, who possibly would have been in the field if not for some late conference tournament upsets.

It's why I have zero sympathy for Middle Tennessee, C-USA and mid-major fans, they didn't even come close to having the biggest gripe. Even St. Mary's has a better case because they actually beat a team with a high seed and lost to a respectable team in the conference tournament.
03-14-2018 05:45 PM
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