(03-09-2018 06:21 PM)Chappy Wrote:  I actually agree with Tom here, in principle. But, they are not treating all non-secular groups the same way, according to the article:

“The Cambridge House Resolution, both in text and in application, is discriminatory and violates the Fair Housing Act because it prohibits Mrs. Dunbar and other Christian residents from accessing common condominium areas for any religious activity, while allowing other residents to use those same facilities for similar non-secular purposes,” attorney Adam Foslid wrote in the complaint.

This is a condo association, not an apartment. If it were an apartment, I wouldn't like it, but I could agree with you. However with a condo, the residents are owners. You can't just pick up and move when a lease comes up. You are telling them they can't have religious services on their own property. To me that is a clear violation of the Constitution.

(03-09-2018 11:56 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It seems that Christians are always looking to be offended by anybody that's promoting equal rights

Right... all those Christians forcing gay bakers to make cakes for them..

(03-09-2018 06:36 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  1) Ban any singing by non-residents in the meeting room
2) Ban any person from using the space more than once
3) Allow for bans on meeting house space for residents using the room if their guests misbehave - and yes they can specifically ban guests from presenting religion in any way with the other residents in any area not covered by the meeting area reservation and time unless those residents agree to accept it.
4) Ban any religious materials be placed or 'left' in common areas and ban any group that violated that rule.
5) Limit the number of times per month a resident can reserve the room for meetings with outsiders
6) Ban religious activity during the course of a association meeting. If a particular resident wants to get up and talk about God, then that can be ruled out of order, unless the subject of the meeting is prayer.
7) Remove all religious imagery from the common areas and prevent residents from decorating their doors.

If I'm the condo board, I'd just change the bylaws to the above and let the advocacy group decide whether its worthwhile to pursue the claim. My guess is that it wouldn't end the lawsuit, but it certainly would limit the damage.

And people wonder why I think the left hates liberty...

I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

I think she has a minor case here. The condo board just needs to make the rules equitable and apply them to everyone. But under no circumstances should someone be forced to listen to people praying or be harassed by people making unwanted and unwelcome religious tracting to go in and out of their home. Obviously, its offending enough of the residents to have the condo board vote in they way they did.

Look, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise, I'm usually willing to take people in good faith when they say they're praying for me. But some people are praying AT people. And I certainly wouldn't want it in my own home.

Do you want the Muslims to set up shop in the lobby of your grandmother's condo and start tracting there? And to have the imam's prayers heard 5 times a day? Remember, the precedent you set isn't just for evangelical Christians.

I say, let her have her meeting space for a Bible study. I'd ban music or amplified speech in the room for everyone. But it can't disturb others, and if her guests tract, bother residents with sharing God, or just 'leave' religious material around, then her rights to have those people over for Bible Study should be suspended.

-----

There's no obligation for the condo association to provide a venue for a church service nor allow guests onto the grounds to 'share' their version of religion with the other residents. A quiet Bible study where the guests don't bother the other residents, don't amplify their voices, don't shout, don't tract, don't pester the residents, and don't engage in organized singing, sure. In other words, if she's reserving the room and basically no one would ever know about the meeting or the group unless they were attending it, sure.

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

I think she has a minor case here. The condo board just needs to make the rules equitable and apply them to everyone. But under no circumstances should someone be forced to listen to people praying or be harassed by people making unwanted and unwelcome religious tracting to go in and out of their home. Obviously, its offending enough of the residents to have the condo board vote in they way they did.

Look, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise, I'm usually willing to take people in good faith when they say they're praying for me. But some people are praying AT people. And I certainly wouldn't want it in my own home.

Do you want the Muslims to set up shop in the lobby of your grandmother's condo and start tracting there? And to have the imam's prayers heard 5 times a day? Remember, the precedent you set isn't just for evangelical Christians.

I say, let her have her meeting space for a Bible study. I'd ban music or amplified speech in the room for everyone. But it can't disturb others, and if her guests tract, bother residents with sharing God, or just 'leave' religious material around, then her rights to have those people over for Bible Study should be suspended.

-----

There's no obligation for the condo association to provide a venue for a church service nor allow guests onto the grounds to 'share' their version of religion with the other residents. A quiet Bible study where the guests don't bother the other residents, don't amplify their voices, don't shout, don't tract, don't pester the residents, and don't engage in organized singing, sure. In other words, if she's reserving the room and basically no one would ever know about the meeting or the group unless they were attending it, sure.

So you are just fine with restricting religion to "acceptable" practices.

There's no right in the constitution for you to avoid speech you don't like. Yet the left is trying to create one.

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

Do you have any basis for asserting that to be the case? I haven’t seen any. I would expect that they would have some sort of private meeting room where this could be done.

Quote:I think she has a minor case here. The condo board just needs to make the rules equitable and apply them to everyone. But under no circumstances should someone be forced to listen to people praying or be harassed by people making unwanted and unwelcome religious tracting to go in and out of their home. Obviously, its offending enough of the residents to have the condo board vote in they way they did.
Look, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise, I'm usually willing to take people in good faith when they say they're praying for me. But some people are praying AT people. And I certainly wouldn't want it in my own home.
Do you want the Muslims to set up shop in the lobby of your grandmother's condo and start tracting there? And to have the imam's prayers heard 5 times a day? Remember, the precedent you set isn't just for evangelical Christians.
I say, let her have her meeting space for a Bible study. I'd ban music or amplified speech in the room for everyone. But it can't disturb others, and if her guests tract, bother residents with sharing God, or just 'leave' religious material around, then her rights to have those people over for Bible Study should be suspended.

IIRC, Seventh Day Adventists aren’t big on music anyway. I agree that it should not be done in a disruptive manner, and I agree that all religions should have comparable opportunities.

Quote:There's no obligation for the condo association to provide a venue for a church service nor allow guests onto the grounds to 'share' their version of religion with the other residents.

We don’t have all the facts here. I’d want to know more about exactly what the situation is. I do think the condo should make some sort of reasonable accommodation, but without more facts and circumstances it is hard to figure out exactly what form that accommodation should take.

If, as alleged, the condo is permitting other similar activities, then I would say the condo should have a problem. I tend to wonder if this isn’t the tip of an iceberg of prior disagreements. I'm guessing this isn't the first time they've tangled.

(03-10-2018 03:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

I think she has a minor case here. The condo board just needs to make the rules equitable and apply them to everyone. But under no circumstances should someone be forced to listen to people praying or be harassed by people making unwanted and unwelcome religious tracting to go in and out of their home. Obviously, its offending enough of the residents to have the condo board vote in they way they did.

Look, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise, I'm usually willing to take people in good faith when they say they're praying for me. But some people are praying AT people. And I certainly wouldn't want it in my own home.

Do you want the Muslims to set up shop in the lobby of your grandmother's condo and start tracting there? And to have the imam's prayers heard 5 times a day? Remember, the precedent you set isn't just for evangelical Christians.

I say, let her have her meeting space for a Bible study. I'd ban music or amplified speech in the room for everyone. But it can't disturb others, and if her guests tract, bother residents with sharing God, or just 'leave' religious material around, then her rights to have those people over for Bible Study should be suspended.

-----

There's no obligation for the condo association to provide a venue for a church service nor allow guests onto the grounds to 'share' their version of religion with the other residents. A quiet Bible study where the guests don't bother the other residents, don't amplify their voices, don't shout, don't tract, don't pester the residents, and don't engage in organized singing, sure. In other words, if she's reserving the room and basically no one would ever know about the meeting or the group unless they were attending it, sure.

So you are just fine with restricting religion to "acceptable" practices.

Its not acceptable or appropriate to put it in people's foyer. I'm sure you'd have no problem with me renting a bullhorn and piping in loud intrusive calls to Muslim Prayer 5 times a day into your home?

The acceptability of singing or shouting isn't the issue. Its that it is audible to the other residents. Its that by doing so, you convert that building into a church. It isn't a church. Its many people's homes.

Again, I don't think the condo board should have to allow a rock band to set up in the meeting room either.

----

Look, many people do not want to be harassed about Jesus. Its their right to not be forced to do so to attend their government meetings, go to taxpayer supported schools, or even go in and out of their own home. We can certainly debate how we got to this point elsewhere, but that's where we are.

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

Is two gay people kissing in public forcing me to attend a gay love ceremony?

(03-10-2018 03:36 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

Is two gay people kissing in public forcing me to attend a gay love ceremony?

Actually, we aren't talking about IN PUBLIC in this situation. We are talking about what is going on ON PEOPLES PRIVATE PROPERTY.

And yes, I have to put up with people praying AT me on the street. And you have to put up with Gay people making out in front of your kids on the street as well.

I think it's funny that discrimination is ok in this case yet if that same group wanted space to organize for a political cause and were discriminated against It would be a supreme court case

(03-10-2018 03:48 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 03:36 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

Is two gay people kissing in public forcing me to attend a gay love ceremony?

Actually, we aren't talking about IN PUBLIC in this situation. We are talking about what is going on ON PEOPLES PRIVATE PROPERTY.

And the people who own that private property have the right... But to compare a few people getting together for a bible study as compelling others to be at church is silly..

(03-10-2018 04:32 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 03:48 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 03:36 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 02:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(10-26-1974 08:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75M5' Wrote:  I think this falls under "preventing the free exercise" of religion.

Do you think that this one resident should have the ability to make everyone in the building attend a church service to enter and exit their own home?

Is two gay people kissing in public forcing me to attend a gay love ceremony?

Actually, we aren't talking about IN PUBLIC in this situation. We are talking about what is going on ON PEOPLES PRIVATE PROPERTY.

And the people who own that private property have the right... But to compare a few people getting together for a bible study as compelling others to be at church is silly..

Depends on how those church members behave. If their Bible service includes loud shouting or singing, or is happening in the lobby area, or if they tract or pester residents, then they should be told to go elsewhere.

BTW, the issue is really that her Bible Study is really a full blown religious service, with loud music, hymn singing, etc.

The owners of the condo association don't have to provide free rent to a church.

(03-11-2018 01:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Depends on how those church members behave. If their Bible service includes loud shouting or singing, or is happening in the lobby area, or if they tract or pester residents, then they should be told to go elsewhere.
BTW, the issue is really that her Bible Study is really a full blown religious service, with loud music, hymn singing, etc.

How do we know this?

(03-11-2018 04:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-11-2018 01:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Depends on how those church members behave. If their Bible service includes loud shouting or singing, or is happening in the lobby area, or if they tract or pester residents, then they should be told to go elsewhere.
BTW, the issue is really that her Bible Study is really a full blown religious service, with loud music, hymn singing, etc.

How do we know this?

This is the answer to your question by Tommie, "well, um, because it depends."

He doesn't know the answer, he's just guessing.