(03-20-2018 05:11 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.

completely agree.

(03-20-2018 07:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.

Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

(03-20-2018 05:11 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.

they both only had 3 teams make the tourney and in the case of P12 two were play in games

(03-20-2018 09:02 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 05:11 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.

they both only had 3 teams make the tourney and in the case of P12 two were play in games

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if the Big East had teams with those records, what would the seeds be? If the Big East standings were what the AAC had with 12 teams.
Xavier 16-2 1 seed
Nova 14-4 1 seed
Seton Hall 14-4 3 or 4 seed
Butler 12-6 5 or 6 seed

yeah, pretty big difference for Seton Hall and Butler.

(03-20-2018 07:28 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.

Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

11 teams 20 conference games would be 110 games
12 teams 18 conference games would be 108 games

so not that big of a difference. And it gets them an extra game each game cycle. Plus more variety, and the ability to avoid quite frankly some matchups 2x.

(03-20-2018 09:05 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:02 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 05:11 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.

they both only had 3 teams make the tourney and in the case of P12 two were play in games

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if the Big East had teams with those records, what would the seeds be? If the Big East standings were what the AAC had with 12 teams.
Xavier 16-2 1 seed
Nova 14-4 1 seed
Seton Hall 14-4 3 or 4 seed
Butler 12-6 5 or 6 seed

yeah, pretty big difference for Seton Hall and Butler.

ok got it. . I'm still torn between getting less teams and higher seeds. or more teams , some of whom are lower seeds. would it have been better if we didn't have 5 teams vying for 3rd-8th place the last week of the season? I'm not sure. I expect at somepoint when we have another year like this one, the 8-9-10 seed will advance.

(03-20-2018 09:13 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:05 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:02 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 05:11 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.

they both only had 3 teams make the tourney and in the case of P12 two were play in games

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if the Big East had teams with those records, what would the seeds be? If the Big East standings were what the AAC had with 12 teams.
Xavier 16-2 1 seed
Nova 14-4 1 seed
Seton Hall 14-4 3 or 4 seed
Butler 12-6 5 or 6 seed

yeah, pretty big difference for Seton Hall and Butler.

ok got it. . I'm still torn between getting less teams and higher seeds. or more teams , some of whom are lower seeds. would it have been better if we didn't have 5 teams vying for 3rd-8th place the last week of the season? I'm not sure. I expect at somepoint when we have another year like this one, the 8-9-10 seed will advance.

What's been absolutely bizarre for the Big East these last 4 years- league has had 9 teams in the 7-10 lines(I think they're all 8-10's actually). 0 of those have advanced to the 2nd weekend. There were then 55 other teams who were on the 7-10 lines and 12 of them I believe it was advanced to the 2nd weekend. 12/55 is like 22% I believe.

I'd have to also note with the AAC final standings- they had the 4 teams at 12-6 or stronger- but then also a 10-8 and 9-9 team...

So extrapolate that to the Big East-
current 1,1,8,8,10,10
proj with 12- 1,1,4,5,8,10

the projected with 12 gives the league a FAR better shot of having 3 or 4 teams in the sweet 16. The Round Robin is a great quaint idea. But this idea that some folks have that it absolutely must be protected at all costs is rather bizarre to me. It's absolutely hurt the league in March. There's a reason why the league is only 27-26 in the 5 years of the NBE, and with only 1 winning season in the tourney. And that's the Round Robin forces so many losses that it kills your seeding. Big 12 even is only 37-30- not a great record for what has been the #1 conference in all 5 years.

Big East fans are really something. They value the regular season SO much more than March. There's 1 reason why the Big East gets more respect now than they did 2 years ago. Doesn't have a damn thing to do with a single regular season game. It's got 100% to do with Villanova winning the National Championship. Like it or not, college basketball is to a lot of fans just a 1 month sport.

I mean go with Virginia in the ACC right now. Their program has been great in the regular season with 5 straight top 5 seeds(with 3 1 seeds and a 2 seed). But they have not produced in March in any fashion. Their perception even before UMBC was this was a program that shrinks in March. And that's just going to be worse now obviously. A lot of fans view Syracuse as being a better program than Virginia right now due to March.

(03-11-2018 01:03 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(03-09-2018 07:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Everyone wants to hate on Dayton because of market duplication but does it hurt the ACC to have both Duke and UNC in close proximity? Fierce rivalries are good for conferences and can draw more attention from casual viewers. Letting the Flyers in will ultimately help the Big East.

That is a unique situation since both UNC and Duke are founding members of the ACC. No new members admitted to major conferences have been a duplicate market/program. In fact, every single addition to the major conferences that wasn't a back-fill/replacement (Texas A&M, Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Rutgers and Notre Dame) was a new market. The replacement call-ups - West Virginia, Louisville and TCU - were also not duplicates, although TCU was admitted to the Big 12 with other members in Texas already present (Texas, Baylor and Texas Tech). Texas can obviously be an exception since it is so large with diverse markets.

Having said that, I firmly believe that Dayton should not be dismissed out-of-hand due to their location. If Detroit or Duquesne had Dayton's resume, they would already be in the Big East. Dayton, and any new member, needs to be able to add money and value to the league, regardless of where they are located. I believe Dayton, even when in rebuilding phases, would be able to do that. They consistently have one of the strongest attendance figures in the nation (not unlike Creighton, whose attendance and fan support was one of biggest supports they had for their respective candidacy), have/will have invested and upgraded their facilities and are capable of competing at higher levels of college basketball. Institutional-fit and academic-fit are already there.

The fact that their addition would add more content for Fox and the Big East, including more games at MSG for the tournament, as well as provide for potential viewers and fan support at games, I think their candidacy should be very strong. Politics may very well get in the way of their membership, but even for the East coast schools, they would receive value for their inclusion, IMO.

To your point the league wanted 4 teams in Texas. Not to mention the population of the Dallas metro area exceeds the population of many states.

(03-19-2018 10:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Could the AAC take St Louis and VCU from under the Big East’s nose? Could there be a danger to the Big East that they might lose out an expansion options to the AAC?

St Louis would rejoin many of its compatriots in the old CUSA.01 in a split second, but needs to get better first.

AAC would prefer Dayton first imo. Cincinnati would probably push for it to have a natural rival.

(03-21-2018 08:26 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(03-19-2018 10:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Could the AAC take St Louis and VCU from under the Big East’s nose? Could there be a danger to the Big East that they might lose out an expansion options to the AAC?

St Louis would rejoin many of its compatriots in the old CUSA.01 in a split second, but needs to get better first.

AAC would prefer Dayton first imo. Cincinnati would probably push for it to have a natural rival.

Generally schools don't like nearby schools to join their conferences, no?

(03-21-2018 08:41 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Generally schools don't like nearby schools to join their conferences, no?

I am not 100% sure. In the A10 at least, Xavier was on board in inviting Dayton, Richmond was happy to invite VCU, VCU, GW and UR were good with inviting George Mason. There seemed a realization that having local rivals in conference was a good thing, and helped to build crowds and fuel passion.

(03-20-2018 09:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:28 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.

Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

11 teams 20 conference games would be 110 games
12 teams 18 conference games would be 108 games

so not that big of a difference. And it gets them an extra game each game cycle. Plus more variety, and the ability to avoid quite frankly some matchups 2x.

That's slightly less content with an additional mouth to feed, plus you lose the double round robin which the league has pretty emphatically been in favor of. You're likely not maximizing your return there.

(03-22-2018 11:36 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:28 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.

Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

11 teams 20 conference games would be 110 games
12 teams 18 conference games would be 108 games

so not that big of a difference. And it gets them an extra game each game cycle. Plus more variety, and the ability to avoid quite frankly some matchups 2x.

That's slightly less content with an additional mouth to feed, plus you lose the double round robin which the league has pretty emphatically been in favor of. You're likely not maximizing your return there.

2 games with the caveat that you would get an extra 6-7 home OOC games with the extra team....

The Round Robin is all nice and quaint, but it's screwing the Big East. Having 10-8 and 9-9 teams is awesome, but screws your seeds.

(03-22-2018 12:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 11:36 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:28 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.

Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

11 teams 20 conference games would be 110 games
12 teams 18 conference games would be 108 games

so not that big of a difference. And it gets them an extra game each game cycle. Plus more variety, and the ability to avoid quite frankly some matchups 2x.

That's slightly less content with an additional mouth to feed, plus you lose the double round robin which the league has pretty emphatically been in favor of. You're likely not maximizing your return there.

2 games with the caveat that you would get an extra 6-7 home OOC games with the extra team....

The Round Robin is all nice and quaint, but it's screwing the Big East. Having 10-8 and 9-9 teams is awesome, but screws your seeds.

Those OOC games are likely to be either unattractive buy games (Saint Louis versus UMKC isn't exactly ratings gold) or split between other providers based on who the home team is. This isn't that hard - 11/20 gets me more games per team than 12/18 if I'm Fox.

(03-22-2018 12:41 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 11:36 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 09:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 07:28 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Matters to the media partners. Very likely the next media deal is greater per team with 11 teams and 20 conference games because of the larger quantity of guaranteed quality games over 10 teams and 18 conference games. My expectation is that the BE adds one school (and my guess is St Louis) while negotiating their next media rights deal unless UConn shakes loose prior to that.

11 teams 20 conference games would be 110 games
12 teams 18 conference games would be 108 games

so not that big of a difference. And it gets them an extra game each game cycle. Plus more variety, and the ability to avoid quite frankly some matchups 2x.

That's slightly less content with an additional mouth to feed, plus you lose the double round robin which the league has pretty emphatically been in favor of. You're likely not maximizing your return there.

2 games with the caveat that you would get an extra 6-7 home OOC games with the extra team....

The Round Robin is all nice and quaint, but it's screwing the Big East. Having 10-8 and 9-9 teams is awesome, but screws your seeds.

Those OOC games are likely to be either unattractive buy games (Saint Louis versus UMKC isn't exactly ratings gold) or split between other providers based on who the home team is. This isn't that hard - 11/20 gets me more games per team than 12/18 if I'm Fox.

You do know there are 13 OOC games, so 6-7 are going to be theirs. While yes, there would be 4-5 dog games, there would also be 2-3 good OOC home games that would be for Fox.

(03-22-2018 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  You do know there are 13 OOC games, so 6-7 are going to be theirs. While yes, there would be 4-5 dog games, there would also be 2-3 good OOC home games that would be for Fox.

...and so you're paying 12 teams for the same content you can get from 11 teams.

(03-22-2018 12:52 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  You do know there are 13 OOC games, so 6-7 are going to be theirs. While yes, there would be 4-5 dog games, there would also be 2-3 good OOC home games that would be for Fox.

...and so you're paying 12 teams for the same content you can get from 11 teams.

but given that you sub-license some stuff out(generally 2nd tier stuff)- you get a lot stronger programming.

IMO, the number of potential adds to the Big East isn't the main question; it's who is the best fit/addition to the conference, and who can provide the most value.

Saint Louis brings a top market, a like-minded institution, a strong commitment to men's basketball (and other Olympic sports that the Big East favors), a high enrollment and endowment and a relatively large newer arena. The results on-the-court have not been there consistently, but I believe that the conference elevation would provide the necessary branding and financing to creating a valuable 11th member to the Big East. A minus is obviously its lack of consistent on-court success, and its Midwestern location.

Dayton bring a strong, probable duplicate, market, a like-minded institution, a strong commitment to men's basketball (and other Olympic sports that the Big East favors), a top-notch fan base and attendance, large new renovated arena, high enrollment and endowment. On-court success has been there, albeit not consistently. The proximity to Xavier is most likely the biggest issue that cannot be avoided.

SLU, IMO, provides the most immediate and long-term value to the conference, if/when the Big East decides to expand.

(03-22-2018 12:54 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:52 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  You do know there are 13 OOC games, so 6-7 are going to be theirs. While yes, there would be 4-5 dog games, there would also be 2-3 good OOC home games that would be for Fox.

...and so you're paying 12 teams for the same content you can get from 11 teams.

but given that you sub-license some stuff out(generally 2nd tier stuff)- you get a lot stronger programming.

Do you? 110 conference games versus 108 conference games plus 2-3 decent OOC games seems an awful lot like the same content, the second just gives a little more low-level stuff to sell, which you aren't making big money on anyway.

(03-22-2018 01:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:54 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:52 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 12:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  You do know there are 13 OOC games, so 6-7 are going to be theirs. While yes, there would be 4-5 dog games, there would also be 2-3 good OOC home games that would be for Fox.

...and so you're paying 12 teams for the same content you can get from 11 teams.

but given that you sub-license some stuff out(generally 2nd tier stuff)- you get a lot stronger programming.

Do you? 110 conference games versus 108 conference games plus 2-3 decent OOC games seems an awful lot like the same content, the second just gives a little more low-level stuff to sell, which you aren't making big money on anyway.

but then your top 1-2 teams aren't playing 2 games vs last 4 teams, and that helps you out as well. Makes the games you do have better. I mean look this year. Cincy instead of having to play Tulsa and Tulane a 2nd time got to play Wichita twice. I think TV folks like that a lot more.