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Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
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esayem Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-11-2018 01:03 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 07:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Everyone wants to hate on Dayton because of market duplication but does it hurt the ACC to have both Duke and UNC in close proximity? Fierce rivalries are good for conferences and can draw more attention from casual viewers. Letting the Flyers in will ultimately help the Big East.

That is a unique situation since both UNC and Duke are founding members of the ACC. No new members admitted to major conferences have been a duplicate market/program. In fact, every single addition to the major conferences that wasn't a back-fill/replacement (Texas A&M, Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Rutgers and Notre Dame) was a new market. The replacement call-ups - West Virginia, Louisville and TCU - were also not duplicates, although TCU was admitted to the Big 12 with other members in Texas already present (Texas, Baylor and Texas Tech). Texas can obviously be an exception since it is so large with diverse markets.

To piggyback on that, when the Big 8 invited the four SWC schools they originally just wanted Texas and Texas A&M, but were forced by the Republic to include Tech and Baylor. Those two didn't add new desirable markets, they were a side car to the big hawgs due to political dealings.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2018 12:17 AM by esayem.)
03-13-2018 12:16 AM
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Post: #42
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-13-2018 12:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(03-11-2018 01:03 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 07:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Everyone wants to hate on Dayton because of market duplication but does it hurt the ACC to have both Duke and UNC in close proximity? Fierce rivalries are good for conferences and can draw more attention from casual viewers. Letting the Flyers in will ultimately help the Big East.

That is a unique situation since both UNC and Duke are founding members of the ACC. No new members admitted to major conferences have been a duplicate market/program. In fact, every single addition to the major conferences that wasn't a back-fill/replacement (Texas A&M, Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Rutgers and Notre Dame) was a new market. The replacement call-ups - West Virginia, Louisville and TCU - were also not duplicates, although TCU was admitted to the Big 12 with other members in Texas already present (Texas, Baylor and Texas Tech). Texas can obviously be an exception since it is so large with diverse markets.

To piggyback on that, when the Big 8 invited the four SWC schools they originally just wanted Texas and Texas A&M, but were forced by the Republic to include Tech and Baylor. Those two didn't add new desirable markets, they were a side car to the big hawgs due to political dealings.

Tech and Baylor were among a handful of P5 schools who aren't state flagships, land grants or elite privates.

UCLA isn't, but they are elite and the clear 2nd in the country's largest state. Arizona St. and Florida St. aren't (despite "state" the other state school is flagship and land grant) but they are the clear seconds in those states. Arizona St. is also perhaps the 2nd largest school in the country.

All the other privates in the P5 are not merely good schools like Baylor, but elite: Stanford, USC, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame, with Wake Forest, Miami, Boston College and Syracuse, if not elite, at least near elite.

More recently TCU and Louisville joined the P5 who don't fit the mold either, although Louisville is the #2 school in their state.
03-13-2018 07:28 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-12-2018 10:08 PM)puck swami Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 11:29 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm of the belief that if Denver ever got its basketball **** together, there's one of your Big East members. They're already an associate member for lacrosse, and they definitely check all of the boxes academically. But, yeesh...with the exception of soccer, they bring next to nothing for the other sponsored sports.

Actually, Denver is the top non-football athletic dept. in the country for 8 of the last nine years in the Learfeld Cup. #4 in Capital One Cup in men's in 2015. Facilities are all pretty new (nothing older than 18 years). They would bring annual NCAA tourney teams in women's volleyball (top 50), top 30 men's and women's swimming, NCAA tourney calibre men's and women's tennis and golf (women are top 20), as well as men's/women's soccer (NCAA tourney almost every year, with men's final four two years ago) and men's (annually top 5)/women's lacrosse (top 20-25). And if the Big East ever decided to sponsor women's gymnastics (top 15), or men's hockey (top 5, defending national champion), or skiing (Current National Champion). Also If the Big East ever offered a Denver league spot in return for adding new sports to match league needs (e.g. softball, cross country, track, etc,) DU would certainly consider adding those sports, too.


Preface with the obvious caveat that the Big East is a basketball-first organization and that Denver would have to get to the point where they're pretty consistently winning the Summit before they'd get a real look from the BE.

That being said, Denver would almost certainly need the BE to go to 14 teams and also have UConn remain in football-sponsoring conferences. For various reasons I figure (in no order) Richmond, Dayton, and Saint Louis would all be clearly ahead of Denver in any scenario. After those three (and also assuming UConn's off the table) is when you start getting into schools like Drake, Duquesne, Davidson, the Bonnies, or even crazier ideas like trying to get Hopkins to jump to D-1 (which, to be clear, I don't think has any chance of actually happening with the Big East - maybe the Patriot, if Hopkins really wanted to, but not the BE). A theoretical Denver that's a low-major power could possibly work their way into that discussion, because there'd be various factors working against all schools under consideration at that point. They'd be a long-shot at best though, and I think Denver's eventual fate is to be team #11 to the WCC when 20-game slates become the norm and after the Zags leave and Seattle takes their place.
03-15-2018 05:01 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
I'm not sure that this 'raid the A-10 thing' is really still a thing. The problem for the Big East is this....is there really a program that is consistent like Xavier? Dayton might get there. But the A-10 teams tend to rotate amongst themselves. No one program dominates consistently. Even VCU, Davidson, and Dayton can be streaky.

Basically, St Louis is a 'fill in the geographic blank' team. But they're really up and down. Dayton is probably blocked by Xavier. UMass is not a real option because they have a football team to take care of. And to be honest, they've been one of the WORST programs in the A-10 recently. They've had exactly 2 decent seasons in the last 20 years (a one and done NCAA bid (blowout loss) and two NIT runs). That's not much of a BE call up resume. Richmond or VCU? VCU has the basketball resume (barely) of a call up but the institutional fit stinks. Richmond does have a good institutional fit but just hasn't been very good recently. They haven't had a 'we'd finish in the top 5' of the BE is 7 years or so. Davidson? They fit institutionally, and they've been mid range BE competitive recently, but how much of it is "coach" vs program? There's a DePaul risk there. And does the BE want another geographic outlier?

I also think that since St Louis just makes a lot of sense with Creighton and Marquette and DePaul in the league, and the league HASN'T asked them, that its a sign that you have to be a higher profile program than SLU to get a call.

So I think there's really not any teams East of Spokane that really fit that profile.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2018 05:43 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
03-15-2018 05:41 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-15-2018 05:41 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I'm not sure that this 'raid the A-10 thing' is really still a thing. The problem for the Big East is this....is there really a program that is consistent like Xavier? Dayton might get there. But the A-10 teams tend to rotate amongst themselves. No one program dominates consistently. Even VCU, Davidson, and Dayton can be streaky.

Basically, St Louis is a 'fill in the geographic blank' team. But they're really up and down. Dayton is probably blocked by Xavier. UMass is not a real option because they have a football team to take care of. And to be honest, they've been one of the WORST programs in the A-10 recently. They've had exactly 2 decent seasons in the last 20 years (a one and done NCAA bid (blowout loss) and two NIT runs). That's not much of a BE call up resume. Richmond or VCU? VCU has the basketball resume (barely) of a call up but the institutional fit stinks. Richmond does have a good institutional fit but just hasn't been very good recently. They haven't had a 'we'd finish in the top 5' of the BE is 7 years or so. Davidson? They fit institutionally, and they've been mid range BE competitive recently, but how much of it is "coach" vs program? There's a DePaul risk there. And does the BE want another geographic outlier?

I also think that since St Louis just makes a lot of sense with Creighton and Marquette and DePaul in the league, and the league HASN'T asked them, that its a sign that you have to be a higher profile program than SLU to get a call.

So I think there's really not any teams East of Spokane that really fit that profile.
I agree with your points. Dayton, St. Louis, VCU, Richmond, Davidson, and others are fine basketball programs. I think, though, that the Big East is, for lack of a better word, happy with the status quo. Their contracts with MSG and FS1 go for another seven years after this year, so there is nothing pressing for expansion. They also have recent memories of an ever expanding conference that was fun and had a lot of great basketball, but that fun came at a cost. Their old rivalries we're diminished under the old version of the Big East because double round robins we're gone. They also saw a bunch of long time partners walk away not long after the conference reached 16 members. They are doing really, really well just as they are. I think they'd really hesitate even with UConn.

Unlike five years ago, the BigEast is now a league that no one will leave. Only the Ivy, Big Ten, and SEC can say that about themselves definitively. So, I can understand if the Big East is extremely cautious about expanding beyond their ten.
03-15-2018 07:11 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-11-2018 01:03 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  That is a unique situation since both UNC and Duke are founding members of the ACC. No new members admitted to major conferences have been a duplicate market/program. In fact, every single addition to the major conferences that wasn't a back-fill/replacement (Texas A&M, Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Rutgers and Notre Dame) was a new market. The replacement call-ups - West Virginia, Louisville and TCU - were also not duplicates, although TCU was admitted to the Big 12 with other members in Texas already present (Texas, Baylor and Texas Tech). Texas can obviously be an exception since it is so large with diverse markets.

You forget the ACC's addition of VTech. Certainly not a new market/program compared to UVA. But a great addition of a rival, which makes sure that the state of Virginia is ACC country. When it comes to less major conferences, often there has been an addition that doubles up on territory. UD to the A10, when they already had XU is one example, as is VCU to the A10 when they had Richmond. Actually UR welcomed VCU twice into their leagues, with the CAA and the A10. There was a realization at UR that adding a great rival would help the conference rather than hurt it.
03-16-2018 09:38 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
VPISU only got into the ACC because then-Governor, now U.S. Senator Mark Warner gave former UVA President John Casteen an ultimatum that Virginia could only vote in favor of expansion if it included Tech. It was very much akin to the political blackmail by Texas Governor Ann Richards that got Baylor and Texas Tech into the Big XII.
How We Ended Up With VPISU In The ACC
03-16-2018 01:29 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
Yes it was a political power play, but in the end it worked out quite well for the ACC. Sometimes getting deeper as well as wider is quite useful.
03-16-2018 02:11 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-09-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I believe the Big East is waiting for (a) a school with the right institutional fit in a large market that it wants to be in (such as St. Louis) to raise its on-the-court credentials, (b) the next AAC contract to be finalized where it will push UConn into a serious consideration of where it wants to be long-term if they're resigned that they won't get a P5 invite and (c ) a balance where the expansion has 1 school from the East and 1 school from the Midwest (e.g. there definitely cannot be 2 Midwestern additions even though it's probably easier to find 2 Midwestern schools that fit the Big East profile than 2 Eastern schools at this point). I'm not feeling any real desire for a one-team expansion to create an 11-team league: that was something that the Big Ten lived with for many years, but it wasn't ever really optimal and it was only because they were getting a mega-blue blood football school. When you have a choice to avoid that situation, you want to avoid it.

Who knows where SLU would be if Rick Majerus had the health of a thirty-year old fitness instructor when he went to coach there. The fact the Bills made the Round of 32 for two years after he was gone is a testament to how well he built up that program upon his departure (and ultimately passing), perhaps they'd be in the Big East today if he was able to stay and build something huge there. Especially given the lack of big basketball competition in St. Louis.
03-19-2018 06:27 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
The Big East doesn't need an 11th school. It needs Georgetown, St. John's and yes, DePaul, to get better.
03-19-2018 07:54 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-19-2018 07:54 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  The Big East doesn't need an 11th school. It needs Georgetown, St. John's and yes, DePaul, to get better.

I hear this type of comment a lot. My question is this, "And then what?"

Given that the Big East has a recent national champion and has had 13 participants in the NCAA tournament the past two years, including two #1 seeds this year, why would it be so much better if it was Georgetown making the tournament instead of Providence, St. John's instead of Seton Hall, or DePaul instead of Creighton or Butler? The league will probably never get more than 7 or at most 8 members in simply because the ninth place team of a ten team league would have lost too much. So if the biggest cities' schools make it, the smaller cities' schools won't.

Maybe I'm too young, though in my mid 30's I am not brand new, but I can't ever remember a time when Georgetown or St. John's or DePaul was on the same level of national appeal as a Kansas or Kentucky or Duke or UNC, yet people seem to think the Big East would get that kind of appeal if those three schools were at the top. To me, it doesn't matter as long as the league is getting teams in the tournament, going deep, and earning high seeds.
03-19-2018 09:59 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
Could the AAC take St Louis and VCU from under the Big East’s nose? Could there be a danger to the Big East that they might lose out an expansion options to the AAC?

St Louis would rejoin many of its compatriots in the old CUSA.01 in a split second, but needs to get better first.
03-19-2018 10:25 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-19-2018 10:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Could the AAC take St Louis and VCU from under the Big East’s nose? Could there be a danger to the Big East that they might lose out an expansion options to the AAC?

St Louis would rejoin many of its compatriots in the old CUSA.01 in a split second, but needs to get better first.

VCU is not an ideal candidate for the Big East, IMO. With them being a public institution, they would stick out like a sore thumb in the league. Conceivably, if they were to be partnered with UConn, or another high-major public program, it could work. I don't see it if it is just them, though. I think VCU would be a perfect fit for the AAC, if it were to wish to expand its non-football members.

SLU's top choice for conference affiliation is the Big East. If the AAC were to ask them to join, only for the Big East to later ask them, they would still jump to the Big East. SLU is a like-minded institution with Marquette, Xavier and Creighton. They also have a great relationship with DePaul. They very much desire an East Coast-centric league, which is why they originally made the move to the A-10 (and out of C-USA).

The same could be said about Dayton.
03-19-2018 11:00 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-19-2018 10:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Could the AAC take St Louis and VCU from under the Big East’s nose? Could there be a danger to the Big East that they might lose out an expansion options to the AAC?

St Louis would rejoin many of its compatriots in the old CUSA.01 in a split second, but needs to get better first.

If the AAC could take them then the BE could just as easily take them from the AAC. Remember that the BE is making more per team in TV and tourny money than the AAC.
03-20-2018 03:40 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
Interesting comments from Adam Zagoria's column with the Dan Hurley interview process at UConn.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2018/03/20/dan-h...aches-say/

There is also the possibility that UConn could re-join the Big East down the road, which has a been a rumor for some time now. That would obviously help whoever is the next UConn coach because he can pitch playing at Madison Square Garden and against the likes of Villanova, Georgetown, St. John’s and Seton Hall locally, instead of going to places like Memphis, Tulsa, Tulane and UCF.

“I’ve heard talk for years about them getting back into the Big East and that would help tremendously,” Chavannes said. “There’s talk that that could happen in the next few years and that would obviously be a great, great thing for him.”


In the past 12 months, Rothstein, Greenberg, Vitale and now Zagoria have all published stories or reference on live TV the possibility of UConn eventually returning to the Big East.
03-20-2018 04:04 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-19-2018 09:59 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 07:54 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  The Big East doesn't need an 11th school. It needs Georgetown, St. John's and yes, DePaul, to get better.

I hear this type of comment a lot. My question is this, "And then what?"

Given that the Big East has a recent national champion and has had 13 participants in the NCAA tournament the past two years, including two #1 seeds this year, why would it be so much better if it was Georgetown making the tournament instead of Providence, St. John's instead of Seton Hall, or DePaul instead of Creighton or Butler? The league will probably never get more than 7 or at most 8 members in simply because the ninth place team of a ten team league would have lost too much. So if the biggest cities' schools make it, the smaller cities' schools won't.

Maybe I'm too young, though in my mid 30's I am not brand new, but I can't ever remember a time when Georgetown or St. John's or DePaul was on the same level of national appeal as a Kansas or Kentucky or Duke or UNC, yet people seem to think the Big East would get that kind of appeal if those three schools were at the top. To me, it doesn't matter as long as the league is getting teams in the tournament, going deep, and earning high seeds.

You don't remember the 80s or early 90s. They were never at the same level, but they were close.
03-20-2018 05:01 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-20-2018 04:04 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Interesting comments from Adam Zagoria's column with the Dan Hurley interview process at UConn.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2018/03/20/dan-h...aches-say/

There is also the possibility that UConn could re-join the Big East down the road, which has a been a rumor for some time now. That would obviously help whoever is the next UConn coach because he can pitch playing at Madison Square Garden and against the likes of Villanova, Georgetown, St. John’s and Seton Hall locally, instead of going to places like Memphis, Tulsa, Tulane and UCF.

“I’ve heard talk for years about them getting back into the Big East and that would help tremendously,” Chavannes said. “There’s talk that that could happen in the next few years and that would obviously be a great, great thing for him.”


In the past 12 months, Rothstein, Greenberg, Vitale and now Zagoria have all published stories or reference on live TV the possibility of UConn eventually returning to the Big East.

As long as they play football, I don't think the Big East would be interested. They already would be the only state school. That may be something they would rather avoid as well.
03-20-2018 05:02 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
The reason why the Big East needs more teams is what happened this year. 2 1 seeds is great, but then the other 4 teams just beat the **** out of each other and got 8-10 seeds. 8-10 seeds are pretty damn close to death.

In the 2 conferences with 10 teams- they had 11 teams finish between 8-10 and 10-8. Of the 11, 3 were NIT. 1 got a 6 seed. The other 7 were 8,8,9,10,10,10,10 seeds. Of those 7- only Kansas St advanced to the 2nd weekend due to UMBC beating Virginia. The other 6 all gone, 4 of the 6 1st game.

Compare to the AAC/Pac 12- just conference record wise. Pac 12 had 5 teams finish at 11-7 or stronger. AAC had 4 teams finishing at 12-6 or stronger. Big East/Big 12 teams finishing with 11-12 wins would be getting 4 or 5 seeds.
03-20-2018 05:11 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
(03-20-2018 05:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  As long as they play football, I don't think the Big East would be interested. They already would be the only state school. That may be something they would rather avoid as well.

The Big East simply isn't getting another program as valuable as UConn, and a 20-game conference schedule is coming. So long as the BE is at 10 teams they'll jump at any chance of making UConn team #11.
03-20-2018 07:15 PM
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RE: Ackerman: Open to Expansion but 'Nothing on the Horizon'
Until the selection committee starts to take teams at 17-15 I'm not so sure 20 conference games matters that much.
03-20-2018 07:18 PM
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