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What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #61
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-07-2018 02:18 PM)esayem Wrote:  Maryland
West Virginia
Virginia
Virginia Tech
UNC
Duke

NC State
Wake
Clemson
GT
FSU
Miami

Should have done that in 2002/2003. Not that I would want to travel to Morgantown for a game.

That would have been a nice football conference. Plus, if the ACC later expanded to 14 (as they did), it would've been Pitt + only one of BC, Syracuse or Louisville... and probably Syracuse.
03-08-2018 09:32 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #62
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-07-2018 05:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I'm sure this has been posted on this board before, but interesting article about the order of events in 1990. Basically, Florida State was the SEC's first choice ahead of SCar or the U for the league's 12th slot. The ACC lobbied hard to bring in Florida State. After FSU chose the ACC, Miami equivocated about its interest in the SEC, while SCar had already voted to accept an invitation if it came. The SEC decided to move ahead with the school that was ready to commit. The interesting question is, what would have happened to both the ACC and the Big East if FSU had chosen the SEC.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/1...onference/

Florida St to the SEC in the early 90s would have changed everything.

If the ACC expanded at all that year it would have had to have been South Carolina or possibly the Gamecocks and Miami as a pair.

If Miami never joined the Big East that conference's nascent football league would have been far weaker.

Without Florida St in the ACC in think that the ACC would have been in a much more vulnerable position in the 2010s had the SEC come calling for the South Carolina pair.

Without Florida State and Miami, I doubt that either the ACC or Big East would have been AQ conferences when the BCS started. That would have changed the entire trajectory of college football, IMO.
03-08-2018 11:22 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
In this admittedly unrealistic mini-scenario, a prescient ACC not only adds FSU in 1991, but also all the would-be Big East football schools aside from Temple. A potential alignment for football (schools are listed in order of protected crossovers):

Atlantic: Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, NC State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Wake Forest, West Virginia
Coastal: Georgia Tech, Miami-FL, Virginia, North Carolina, Syracuse, Boston College, Duke, Virginia Tech
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2018 04:03 PM by Nerdlinger.)
03-08-2018 03:57 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #64
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-08-2018 11:22 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 05:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I'm sure this has been posted on this board before, but interesting article about the order of events in 1990. Basically, Florida State was the SEC's first choice ahead of SCar or the U for the league's 12th slot. The ACC lobbied hard to bring in Florida State. After FSU chose the ACC, Miami equivocated about its interest in the SEC, while SCar had already voted to accept an invitation if it came. The SEC decided to move ahead with the school that was ready to commit. The interesting question is, what would have happened to both the ACC and the Big East if FSU had chosen the SEC.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/1...onference/

Florida St to the SEC in the early 90s would have changed everything.

If the ACC expanded at all that year it would have had to have been South Carolina or possibly the Gamecocks and Miami as a pair.

If Miami never joined the Big East that conference's nascent football league would have been far weaker.

Without Florida St in the ACC in think that the ACC would have been in a much more vulnerable position in the 2010s had the SEC come calling for the South Carolina pair.

Without Florida State and Miami, I doubt that either the ACC or Big East would have been AQ conferences when the BCS started. That would have changed the entire trajectory of college football, IMO.

If FSU and Miami had both joined the SEC in the early 1990s, then yes, the BCS would have had only 4 "AQ" conferences when it formed at around the time the SWC disbanded.

Or rather, if the BCS had formed. With only 4 major football conferences, the powers-that-be might have just made the Sugar Bowl a SEC/Big 12 matchup to go with the Rose Bowl's Pac-10/Big Ten matchup, and never bothered with BCS rankings or any of that. Just let the poll voters vote however they want to vote, the way it was done for umpteen years before that.
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2018 04:27 PM by Wedge.)
03-08-2018 04:26 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #65
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-07-2018 09:55 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 04:49 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I didn't want to start a new thread but what's happened to Pitt basketball?

They chased off their future HOF coach, Jamie Dixon to TCU and hired a below average retread Kevin Stallings. Makes me mad just thinking about.

They made the right call. How many times are you gonna fail to get the Elite 8 with a high seed? He could win like no one's business in the regular season but whether it was being bad at the crapshoot, lacking athleticism or whatever the case may be, when the chips were down he crapped out.

They may have hired a bad replacement but they were right to push out Dixon.
03-08-2018 09:01 PM
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orangefan Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-08-2018 11:22 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 05:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I'm sure this has been posted on this board before, but interesting article about the order of events in 1990. Basically, Florida State was the SEC's first choice ahead of SCar or the U for the league's 12th slot. The ACC lobbied hard to bring in Florida State. After FSU chose the ACC, Miami equivocated about its interest in the SEC, while SCar had already voted to accept an invitation if it came. The SEC decided to move ahead with the school that was ready to commit. The interesting question is, what would have happened to both the ACC and the Big East if FSU had chosen the SEC.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/1...onference/

Florida St to the SEC in the early 90s would have changed everything.

If the ACC expanded at all that year it would have had to have been South Carolina or possibly the Gamecocks and Miami as a pair.

If Miami never joined the Big East that conference's nascent football league would have been far weaker.

Without Florida St in the ACC in think that the ACC would have been in a much more vulnerable position in the 2010s had the SEC come calling for the South Carolina pair.

Without Florida State and Miami, I doubt that either the ACC or Big East would have been AQ conferences when the BCS started. That would have changed the entire trajectory of college football, IMO.

With Florida State in the SEC, the ACC and Big East may have engaged in a wrestling match for Miami. Alternatively, the ACC may have been willing to revisit the Big East's proposal to have SU, BC and Pitt join the ACC for football only, with Miami in as number 12 as either a full member of the ACC or the Big East. Another possibility would have been for the ACC to invite Syracuse, which was the other school they were interested in at the time. With their football situation in doubt, Syracuse may have more open to such a move than they were when initially approached by the ACC.
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2018 09:15 AM by orangefan.)
03-09-2018 09:08 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #67
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-08-2018 04:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-08-2018 11:22 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 05:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I'm sure this has been posted on this board before, but interesting article about the order of events in 1990. Basically, Florida State was the SEC's first choice ahead of SCar or the U for the league's 12th slot. The ACC lobbied hard to bring in Florida State. After FSU chose the ACC, Miami equivocated about its interest in the SEC, while SCar had already voted to accept an invitation if it came. The SEC decided to move ahead with the school that was ready to commit. The interesting question is, what would have happened to both the ACC and the Big East if FSU had chosen the SEC.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/1...onference/

Florida St to the SEC in the early 90s would have changed everything.

If the ACC expanded at all that year it would have had to have been South Carolina or possibly the Gamecocks and Miami as a pair.

If Miami never joined the Big East that conference's nascent football league would have been far weaker.

Without Florida St in the ACC in think that the ACC would have been in a much more vulnerable position in the 2010s had the SEC come calling for the South Carolina pair.

Without Florida State and Miami, I doubt that either the ACC or Big East would have been AQ conferences when the BCS started. That would have changed the entire trajectory of college football, IMO.

If FSU and Miami had both joined the SEC in the early 1990s, then yes, the BCS would have had only 4 "AQ" conferences when it formed at around the time the SWC disbanded.

Or rather, if the BCS had formed. With only 4 major football conferences, the powers-that-be might have just made the Sugar Bowl a SEC/Big 12 matchup to go with the Rose Bowl's Pac-10/Big Ten matchup, and never bothered with BCS rankings or any of that. Just let the poll voters vote however they want to vote, the way it was done for umpteen years before that.

Do you think, in that scenario, that there would eventually been pressure to pair the Sugar and Rose winners in a "plus one" game? For some reason, Americans seem to be unable to stand not having a single, uncontested champion.
03-09-2018 09:27 AM
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Gamecock Offline
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Post: #68
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 06:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  1991 was the first big watershed realignment year. The SEC added South Carolina and Arkansas, the ACC added Florida St, the Big Ten added Penn St around that time, and the Big East started football adding full member Miami and a gaggle of affiliates.

But what if the 8 member ACC had seen the potential of 12 team league and gone to 12 then rather than waiting to 2004-2005 to do so?

Let's say they grab Florida St and Miami. To fill the other two spots they have what I'd consider 3 good options: South Carolina, VT, and WVU. keeping the SEC out of the Carolinas would be prudent if the Gamecocks could be convinced the ACC was the better option.

What does that mean elsewhere? If South Carolina returns to their ACC roots the SEC needs a different 12th and probably grabs another from the SWC, further hastening the demise of the SWC and likely getting someone like BYU, TCU, or Houston in the Big 12.

Big East members BC, Pitt, and Syracuse have to look elsewhere to build their football league. Rutgers and Temple are still there and maybe WVU out of the A-10. I think they have to resort to Metro schools to fill out the rest, that is if the Metro doesn't try to do their own football league. If the Metro group has VT, Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM they might be able to force the northeastern schools to join their league rather than the other way around.

South Carolina would not have picked the ACC over the SEC and the ACC wasn't interested at that point anyway.
03-09-2018 09:29 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #69
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-09-2018 09:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-08-2018 04:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-08-2018 11:22 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 05:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-07-2018 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I'm sure this has been posted on this board before, but interesting article about the order of events in 1990. Basically, Florida State was the SEC's first choice ahead of SCar or the U for the league's 12th slot. The ACC lobbied hard to bring in Florida State. After FSU chose the ACC, Miami equivocated about its interest in the SEC, while SCar had already voted to accept an invitation if it came. The SEC decided to move ahead with the school that was ready to commit. The interesting question is, what would have happened to both the ACC and the Big East if FSU had chosen the SEC.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/1...onference/

Florida St to the SEC in the early 90s would have changed everything.

If the ACC expanded at all that year it would have had to have been South Carolina or possibly the Gamecocks and Miami as a pair.

If Miami never joined the Big East that conference's nascent football league would have been far weaker.

Without Florida St in the ACC in think that the ACC would have been in a much more vulnerable position in the 2010s had the SEC come calling for the South Carolina pair.

Without Florida State and Miami, I doubt that either the ACC or Big East would have been AQ conferences when the BCS started. That would have changed the entire trajectory of college football, IMO.

If FSU and Miami had both joined the SEC in the early 1990s, then yes, the BCS would have had only 4 "AQ" conferences when it formed at around the time the SWC disbanded.

Or rather, if the BCS had formed. With only 4 major football conferences, the powers-that-be might have just made the Sugar Bowl a SEC/Big 12 matchup to go with the Rose Bowl's Pac-10/Big Ten matchup, and never bothered with BCS rankings or any of that. Just let the poll voters vote however they want to vote, the way it was done for umpteen years before that.

Do you think, in that scenario, that there would eventually been pressure to pair the Sugar and Rose winners in a "plus one" game? For some reason, Americans seem to be unable to stand not having a single, uncontested champion.

Eventually, yeah. Eventually there would be a season in which both the Rose and Sugar winners appeared equally worthy of a #1 ranking, or Notre Dame (or another team not in one of those 4 conferences) was ranked in the top 2 or 3 and won its bowl game. It would be relatively easy to add a plus-one game matching the top 2 teams after the bowls.
03-09-2018 11:39 AM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-09-2018 09:29 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  South Carolina would not have picked the ACC over the SEC and the ACC wasn't interested at that point anyway.

Agreed on both counts. South Carolina was an excellent add for the SEC because it was a large flagship state university in a bordering state. The ACC, on the other hand, needed a regular national contender in football school to raise its football profile. South Carolina was simply not at that level in 1990.
03-09-2018 01:42 PM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
Lots of good stuff on here. I don't know where to begin.

If FSU chose the SEC over the ACC I think the next move belongs to the ACC. I think Miami prefered to align with the Big East schools but at the same time the ACC was still flirting with Syracuse and the creation of Big East football was far from certain. Taking the 3 Big East schools--full or fb, and Miami might have been the move they were forced to make.

Meanwhile in the Metro you've got S Car, VT, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, USM, and Tulane. The A-10 has just WVU, Rutgers, and Temple in football. Maybe the A-10 schools become football affiliates. In 1996 in the wake of the SWC breakup maybe Houston and ECU become #s 11 and 12.

If the Great Midwest never gets created I'm guessing schools like DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, Dayton, VCU, UAB, and USF ever get involved with the Metro or maybe just a couple.

If the Big East was reduced to just UConn and the Catholic 5 my guess is they either find replacements in the A-10 or look to Midwestern Catholics to fill their ranks.
03-09-2018 02:19 PM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-09-2018 02:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If the Big East was reduced to just UConn and the Catholic 5 my guess is they either find replacements in the A-10 or look to Midwestern Catholics to fill their ranks.

In hindsight, that seems like it would have been the obvious move for the Big East if Syracuse, BC and Pitt had left, either in 1990, in 1980 when Penn State was trying to form an all sports conference, or again in 1995 when CBS offered the Big East Football Conference a major television deal. However, I don't recall that move ever being suggested.
03-09-2018 04:56 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-09-2018 04:56 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 02:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If the Big East was reduced to just UConn and the Catholic 5 my guess is they either find replacements in the A-10 or look to Midwestern Catholics to fill their ranks.

In hindsight, that seems like it would have been the obvious move for the Big East if Syracuse, BC and Pitt had left, either in 1990, in 1980 when Penn State was trying to form an all sports conference, or again in 1995 when CBS offered the Big East Football Conference a major television deal. However, I don't recall that move ever being suggested.

So which move do you think would have been the wiser move? stick to the East Coast identity or strike up an alliance with the Midwestern Catholics: Xavier, Dayton, Notre Dame, DePaul, Marquette, and St Louis?
03-09-2018 07:55 PM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
Playing out the Miami and the Big East 3 to the ACC scenario a little further.

The 3 A-10 schools start playing football with the 7 Metro schools: S. Car, VT, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM.

With the Metro intact the Sunbelt doesn't experience the mass exodus in 1991. UAB, USF, VCU, Charlotte, USA, WKU, ODU, and Jacksonville stays together in the Sunbelt and there's no need to merge with the American South Conference. If and when UAB and USF want to start D1-A football they could bring UCF, ULL, LA Tech, and Ark St. into the fold in the 90's. When USA, WKU, ODU, and Charlotte decided to play FBS they all would have had a conference home, especially I'd the Sunbelt and not the American South became the football home. Perhaps MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU as well.
03-10-2018 12:42 PM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-10-2018 12:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Playing out the Miami and the Big East 3 to the ACC scenario a little further.

The 3 A-10 schools start playing football with the 7 Metro schools: S. Car, VT, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM.

With the Metro intact the Sunbelt doesn't experience the mass exodus in 1991. UAB, USF, VCU, Charlotte, USA, WKU, ODU, and Jacksonville stays together in the Sunbelt and there's no need to merge with the American South Conference. If and when UAB and USF want to start D1-A football they could bring UCF, ULL, LA Tech, and Ark St. into the fold in the 90's. When USA, WKU, ODU, and Charlotte decided to play FBS they all would have had a conference home, especially I'd the Sunbelt and not the American South became the football home. Perhaps MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU as well.

Assuming that Cincy et. al. don't leave the Metro for the Great Midwest.
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-10-2018 08:54 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(03-10-2018 12:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Playing out the Miami and the Big East 3 to the ACC scenario a little further.

The 3 A-10 schools start playing football with the 7 Metro schools: S. Car, VT, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM.

With the Metro intact the Sunbelt doesn't experience the mass exodus in 1991. UAB, USF, VCU, Charlotte, USA, WKU, ODU, and Jacksonville stays together in the Sunbelt and there's no need to merge with the American South Conference. If and when UAB and USF want to start D1-A football they could bring UCF, ULL, LA Tech, and Ark St. into the fold in the 90's. When USA, WKU, ODU, and Charlotte decided to play FBS they all would have had a conference home, especially I'd the Sunbelt and not the American South became the football home. Perhaps MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU as well.


Assuming that Cincy et. al. don't leave the Metro for the Great Midwest.

Cincy and Memphis were the only two that fled from the Metro to form the Great Midwest. If I am not mistaken Louisville wanted to hoard basketball revenue and those two would have none of it.

In my prognosticating my believe is that the presence of the VT and South Carolina football programs would create a more apparent and dire need to address football first and Louisville would not have the leverage they had in the situation. A football league of S Car, VT, WVU, Cincy, L'ville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM (and possibly affiliates Rutgers and Temple) would be a halfway decent conference in 91--not as good as what the Big East put together in 91 but still respectable.

When Houston and the other SWC refugees became available in 96 there's another opportunity to bolster this group. TCU, SMU, and Rice all looked west in 96 because at the time there was no eastern league to take them due to the infighting between Metro and Great Midwest but if there's a Metro in place that sponsors football in 96 then maybe more of those schools look east first.
03-12-2018 04:17 PM
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(03-09-2018 07:55 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 04:56 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(03-09-2018 02:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If the Big East was reduced to just UConn and the Catholic 5 my guess is they either find replacements in the A-10 or look to Midwestern Catholics to fill their ranks.

In hindsight, that seems like it would have been the obvious move for the Big East if Syracuse, BC and Pitt had left, either in 1990, in 1980 when Penn State was trying to form an all sports conference, or again in 1995 when CBS offered the Big East Football Conference a major television deal. However, I don't recall that move ever being suggested.

So which move do you think would have been the wiser move? stick to the East Coast identity or strike up an alliance with the Midwestern Catholics: Xavier, Dayton, Notre Dame, DePaul, Marquette, and St Louis?

Midwestern Catholics. There were simply no great candidates in the East, particularly any capable of replacing Syracuse. In addition to great basketball tradition, several of the Midwestern Catholics had large arenas and were located in or near large TV markets. That was and is a key element of the Big East business plan.
03-13-2018 01:37 PM
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