Pardon me for losing track of the details---Do they have a NCAA tourney ban? Any scholarship losses and for how long?

(02-20-2018 05:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 05:36 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I didn't read the article, did Michigan get crowned champion? If not, it's a sham.

Nope, as in all other such cases, the opponent doesn't get a "W". The title is just vacant, there is no 2013 hoops national champion.

Makes sense too, as it wasn't just Michigan that UofL didn't officially beat, they didn't officially beat any of their other tournament opponents that year either.

Indeed - Wichita State (Final Four) lost to them by a lower margin.

(02-20-2018 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Wow, just wow .... a National Championship stripped ...

They needed to strip 2 or 3 from UNC.

When it gets stripped, its just viewed as vacant.

(02-20-2018 05:36 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 02:35 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 02:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  the games happened and we can't just take them out our memory.

Similarly, though, there's no reason the NCAA has to continue to certify the results once it's clear Louisville didn't abide by the guidelines required to participate in NCAA-sanctioned competition. They didn't say that everyone has to forget the games ever happened, bit they're perfectly within their rights to pull their endorsement of the games based on the conduct of a participant.

Understandable, though they aren't consistent. When is the last time they vacated a title? Have they ever done so?

And again, an asterisk does just fine. I wish organizations would pull records from stats that really were disserviced, such as the home run record. Unless they hired players off the street or paid their players NBA/semi-pro level salaries this is ridiculous.

I didn't read the article, did Michigan get crowned champion? If not, it's a sham.

USC lost 2004 football.

A bunch of final 4s and 2nd place finishes have been vacated.

The NCAA doesn't sponsor an FBS championship.

Do stuff like penalize Georgetown and strip them of their title. They had a key contributor who never passed a course while in school.

Vacating wins and championships is stupid imo. It's like getting a DUI and your punishment was having to pretend the fun you had that night didn't happen and you aren't allowed to tell anyone about what you did at the bar. You have the punish the future, not the past.

(02-20-2018 06:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The NCAA doesn't sponsor an FBS championship.

No, but the BCS did, and the BCS stripped USC of its 2004 national title, and USC had to send the crystal football back.

One good thing about what happened today is it refutes the belief that the NCAA would never actually strip away a basketball national title.

(02-20-2018 06:50 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Vacating wins and championships is stupid imo. It's like getting a DUI and your punishment was having to pretend the fun you had that night didn't happen and you aren't allowed to tell anyone about what you did at the bar. You have the punish the future, not the past.

I disagree. The real value of a national title isn't the in-the-moment locker room celebration with the hats and t-shirts. It's the long-run legacy of what you've accomplished as a program. It's the banner on the ceiling and the trophy in the trophy case.

E.g., I have a friend who is a life-long Steelers fan. When the Patriots lost to the Eagles the other day, he posted "still the only one with SIX" on his Facebook page. That's the value, the long term bragging rights.

If you have to take those banners down and send the trophy back, then it really didn't happen.

UL understands that, which is why they would have been glad to give up a bunch of scholarships going forward and suffer a ban on upcoming tournaments to keep their banner and trophy.

(02-20-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  If you have to take those banners down and send the trophy back, then it really didn't happen.

UL understands that, which is why they would have been glad to give up a bunch of scholarships going forward and suffer a ban on upcoming tournaments to keep their banner and trophy.

No. 90+ percent of the title's value to the team and the university - goodwill, recruiting, increased contributions from donors - is in the first 5 years after a title is won. Louisville already got that 90 percent.

Louisville did not offer to give up even more scholarships and an even longer postseason ban in order to keep their banner hanging in their arena. No sanctioned program has ever offered to sit out 2 or 3 more postseasons, in addition to the ban already imposed, and/or play hoops for a few years with only 5 scholarship players, in order to keep a banner, and none ever will.

The value in vacating wins or titles 5 years after the fact lies mostly in pleasing the people who want to see a school or coach punished.

The NCAA proved how full of **** it is with the UNC CHeat decision. They somehow make FIFA look like a scrupulous and principled organization.

(02-20-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 06:50 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Vacating wins and championships is stupid imo. It's like getting a DUI and your punishment was having to pretend the fun you had that night didn't happen and you aren't allowed to tell anyone about what you did at the bar. You have the punish the future, not the past.

I disagree. The real value of a national title isn't the in-the-moment locker room celebration with the hats and t-shirts. It's the long-run legacy of what you've accomplished as a program. It's the banner on the ceiling and the trophy in the trophy case.

E.g., I have a friend who is a life-long Steelers fan. When the Patriots lost to the Eagles the other day, he posted "still the only one with SIX" on his Facebook page. That's the value, the long term bragging rights.

If you have to take those banners down and send the trophy back, then it really didn't happen.

UL understands that, which is why they would have been glad to give up a bunch of scholarships going forward and suffer a ban on upcoming tournaments to keep their banner and trophy.

I don't think your first point and my overall message necessarily conflict; history will be relevant towards the long-term legacy of a program, but recent history that can be shaped by NCAA sanctions is the larger determinant imo. IIRC SMU never had to vacate all the seasons they were noncompliant, they were just put on the death penalty instead; had the NCAA just told them "hey those pony express seasons didn't exist bye bye" and then let them go on with their business as usual (presumably meaning they were able to maintain the program) how many people would've cared? It doesn't take away the memories people had in the moment when those wins occurred and in this scenario it wouldn't negatively affect their future like we saw in real life. And honestly college sports are so corrupt nowadays that I think a decent contingent may simply ignore vacated wins because "everybody cheats so why should I act like we were never champions?"

(02-20-2018 07:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 06:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The NCAA doesn't sponsor an FBS championship.

No, but the BCS did, and the BCS stripped USC of its 2004 national title, and USC had to send the crystal football back.

One good thing about what happened today is it refutes the belief that the NCAA would never actually strip away a basketball national title.

The question was whether the NCAA does. The BCS is its own entity and it wasn't even the BCS, it was the polls that crowned them. In college football's case, it's not wholly earned (let alone that it still is technically a mythical title) as in college basketball where each team controls their own destiny.

(02-20-2018 10:38 PM)Artifice Wrote:  The NCAA proved how full of **** it is with the UNC CHeat decision. They somehow make FIFA look like a scrupulous and principled organization.

Seriously...

(02-20-2018 11:01 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 06:50 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Vacating wins and championships is stupid imo. It's like getting a DUI and your punishment was having to pretend the fun you had that night didn't happen and you aren't allowed to tell anyone about what you did at the bar. You have the punish the future, not the past.

I disagree. The real value of a national title isn't the in-the-moment locker room celebration with the hats and t-shirts. It's the long-run legacy of what you've accomplished as a program. It's the banner on the ceiling and the trophy in the trophy case.

E.g., I have a friend who is a life-long Steelers fan. When the Patriots lost to the Eagles the other day, he posted "still the only one with SIX" on his Facebook page. That's the value, the long term bragging rights.

If you have to take those banners down and send the trophy back, then it really didn't happen.

UL understands that, which is why they would have been glad to give up a bunch of scholarships going forward and suffer a ban on upcoming tournaments to keep their banner and trophy.

I don't think your first point and my overall message necessarily conflict; history will be relevant towards the long-term legacy of a program, but recent history that can be shaped by NCAA sanctions is the larger determinant imo. IIRC SMU never had to vacate all the seasons they were noncompliant, they were just put on the death penalty instead; had the NCAA just told them "hey those pony express seasons didn't exist bye bye" and then let them go on with their business as usual (presumably meaning they were able to maintain the program) how many people would've cared? It doesn't take away the memories people had in the moment when those wins occurred and in this scenario it wouldn't negatively affect their future like we saw in real life. And honestly college sports are so corrupt nowadays that I think a decent contingent may simply ignore vacated wins because "everybody cheats so why should I act like we were never champions?"

A simple asterisk does fine as I said.

UNC's fake classes scam looks way worse than this if you're gonna strip away titles.

(02-20-2018 07:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  One good thing about what happened today is it refutes the belief that the NCAA would never actually strip away a basketball national title.

Right, because they needed a win. Optically, this makes them look tough. Was this in any way a motivating factor for the NCAA?

UL deserved this, but then, a lot of schools deserve worse. This rings hollow because UL cooperated, and was still made to serve as an example.

The NCAA and mainstream media are going to want to have you focus on the corruption within UL, and the merit for this punishment. They do not want its failures in other investigations and organizational issues stapled to this. This is like a dirty cop making a clean arrest. At best, the job was done, but the irony is rich.

(02-20-2018 04:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Most presidents would take the high road and reference disappointment with the decision and leave it at that. Postel went yard.

If schools didn't catch the drift of Miami and UNC, just don't cooperate. Don't hand them the rope, let alone tie the noose, so they can hang you with it. The NCAA is not doing a thing on its own in these matters. If they want to investigate you...let them do it completely themselves. They show no mercy on you, why play nice in return?

I don't know why the NCAA decides to still tack on additional penalties. It used to be a show of force and for politics...yeah, when you're seen as impotent, as they are now, this isn't exactly hitting the same mark.

Maybe Postel was taking the same tone with the NCAA?

(02-20-2018 06:50 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Vacating wins and championships is stupid imo. It's like getting a DUI and your punishment was having to pretend the fun you had that night didn't happen and you aren't allowed to tell anyone about what you did at the bar. You have the punish the future, not the past.

I agree with you on the wins. But taking down that banner and not being able to advertise in your programs and publications? That is a big deal.

All of this grandstanding on both sides is just dumb.

The NCAA is making an example of UoL to save face for the f-ups they have been making recently; this then gives the UoL plausible deniability to claim the scapegoat card and he can scream it at the top of his lungs...... it is all a stupid sham.


All these f-er's are guilty and they all know it - what is worse is that they all still think the general public believes them - they are a laughing stock.

(02-20-2018 07:40 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  If you have to take those banners down and send the trophy back, then it really didn't happen.

UL understands that, which is why they would have been glad to give up a bunch of scholarships going forward and suffer a ban on upcoming tournaments to keep their banner and trophy.

No. 90+ percent of the title's value to the team and the university - goodwill, recruiting, increased contributions from donors - is in the first 5 years after a title is won. Louisville already got that 90 percent.

Louisville did not offer to give up even more scholarships and an even longer postseason ban in order to keep their banner hanging in their arena. No sanctioned program has ever offered to sit out 2 or 3 more postseasons, in addition to the ban already imposed, and/or play hoops for a few years with only 5 scholarship players, in order to keep a banner, and none ever will.

The value in vacating wins or titles 5 years after the fact lies mostly in pleasing the people who want to see a school or coach punished.

But ... UL did offer to give up scholarships and restrict its recruiting, they did self- impose a post-season ban in 2015-2016, (and that's not uncommon, many football programs have implemented self-imposed post-season bans to avoid other sanctions). They self-imposed all those forward-looking things that you say matter most.

UL did not offer to vacate its 2012 F4 or 2013 national title, and the reason is obvious: scholarships and recruiting and post-seasons in the future are only valuable because they might lead to accomplishments like conference titles, F4s, and national titles. The 2013 title was a bird in the hand, the scholarships and recruiting were birds in the bush.

The real damage here is: UL now has 2 national titles, not 3. They have 8 Final 4s, not 10. Since F4s and national titles are basically what define the historical legacy of a basketball program, their standing among the Kansas's and Kentucky's and Duke's has fallen. And that stature is what is most important to Louisville, as it is to any national power. That's what matters most, not the other stuff.

Money and goodwill and recruits come naturally to a national power like Louisville. Their YUM Center would have been filled up the last 5 years with or without the title. I'm not saying those things aren't important, they are, which is why the punishments also do include losses of schollies, recruiting restrictions, and a lot of money being returned. UL got hit with that, too. But the title? That's the coveted, ultimate prize, and it's now gone.

And that's why UL is so upset. It's also why the title is the focus of the media. Look at today's headlines about it - they all say "UofL stripped of 2013 title". None of them say "UL probation and recruiting and scholarship losses upheld". Because everyone knows what the Real Punishment is, the loss of the title.

(02-21-2018 01:58 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 07:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 06:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The NCAA doesn't sponsor an FBS championship.

No, but the BCS did, and the BCS stripped USC of its 2004 national title, and USC had to send the crystal football back.

One good thing about what happened today is it refutes the belief that the NCAA would never actually strip away a basketball national title.

The question was whether the NCAA does. The BCS is its own entity and it wasn't even the BCS, it was the polls that crowned them. In college football's case, it's not wholly earned (let alone that it still is technically a mythical title) as in college basketball where each team controls their own destiny.

The question before yesterday was whether the NCAA does, and that question has been answered. But during the USC case, there was speculation about whether the BCS would strip USC of its title. It was a thing to discuss. And it turned out they would. The BCS, not the polls, stripped USC of its title and USC had to return the crystal football. There was nothing mythical about any of that - in 2004, USC was awarded the BCS trophy, in 2011, it was confiscated. I visited USC in 2008 and saw that trophy. It had pride-of-place, right in the center of their football trophy room. But if you go now it's not there anymore:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/06/...l-20110607