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What sets us apart from these schools you mention? Bottom line is we are a small nationally irrelevant program in the middle of BIG footprint. We have a very small fan base as 90% of our alumni are either M, MSU, or Notre Dame fans and they raise their kids the same way. Your argument could be made for any G5 program, (put us in a more desired conference and the fans/support will automatically follow). As much as i would like to see it, it's not happening.

(02-16-2018 09:23 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:13 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 02:53 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 02:48 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 02:43 PM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  What does that tell you about WMU? We are an average MAC team, we certainly don't dominate.

College sports are rigged. I think you'd immediately see an improvement in the program if you started scheduling more upper level G5 teams and more lower level P5 teams. Imagine how much more people would show up to waldo if we were playing BYU, Cinn, Boise st, Navy/Army, etc. Hell of a lot better than watching us play akron and buffalo. That being said, I think the cinncinnati deal is huge for us. Much better than watching us get the **** kicked out of by Michigan or Mich st every other year.

"Much better than watching us get the **** kicked out of by Michigan or Mich st every other year."

Apparently, you did not see the last two games against Michigan State. WMU competed well and was in position to win both games in the 4th quarter, particularly last fall.

And what makes you think Michigan is any better than the USC team we took deep into the 4th quarter last fall? It isn't and Harbaugh is flailing in desperation in Ann Arbor now.

We lost all of those games by double digit figures, the only reason those games were close was because of d-philips insane kick returns. And why are we only scheduling 2 P5 non conference team each year. Lots of these other mac schools are able to get 3 P5 opponents and a decent G5 opponent on their scheduele. Once again, another reason I like the Cincinnati deal. It's better for the students, better for the players and better for the program overall if you're able to scheduele as many beatable P5 opponents as possible. I like that CMU keeps going after Kansas :)

"double digit figures"

How 'bout two possession game in 4th quarter. That's competitive and winnable.

And D-Philips plays against MSU can't be discounted. He is/was part of the team and special teams scores count as much as O or D scores. Bottom-line, WMU played MSU close and was in position to win in the 4th quarter. Two plays, tie game. That is not getting the "**** kicked out of you." Not sure what game you were watching.

And CMU has played Kansas three times, lost twice, including the 52-7 loss in 2007 which was a legitimate "**** kicked out of you."

(02-16-2018 09:54 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:47 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:34 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 06:47 PM)brovol Wrote:  Becoming an independent would be a problem for WMU. Who would we play? Answer: MAC schools, if they have a spot. Bottom line is that scheduling would be an issue, and we would end up with more away games than we have now. We are neither notre dame, nor Army; schools which are highly marketable.

The MAC fits us well, even if not without a few drawbacks. It's a good competitive conference, and we have a long history here. I'm not sure what are the desire to leave the MAC is all about.

You get your 4 first games of the season that are out of conference anyway. Then you have to find a way to pick up nine games, maybe two/three of those are against respectable MAC teams like CMU, northern Illinois, etc. That leaves 6 games left that you need to find opponents for. I'm sure that's doable even if you have to start with lower level G5 teams for a year or lower P5 teams on the road until the program builds up. how about try and scheduele with other independents, I'm sure we could get BYU, UMASS, probably not army or Norte dame(at home at least).

Finding games in the middle of the season when just about every other school is in a conference and playing conference games is difficult, if not impossible. What would the upside be to being independent? No bowl tie-ins would hurt, as we have proven this year that we are not a desirable school to bowls when we are eligible but not mandated.If we are playing MAC schools anyway, why wouldn't we just stay in the MAC?

Because there are about 1-2 teams in the MAC that are actually desirable opponents. Upside is we get to scheduele who we want. This program is not building nor is it improving while in the MAC. We are still 0-6 in bowl games, PJ Fleck got us some national attention but he bailed, we'll see what Lester can do in the next two years but we hardly can even fill Waldo when we play opponents like Akron, ball state, bgsu, nobody wants to watch those teams, they are the scum of FBS. Sorry but it's true

Looking at SB Nation's Early Preseason Ranking for 2018(yeah, I know it's SB), the AAC has 3 teams in the bottom 30 and the MAC 4.

#125 ECU
#124 UConn
#108 Tulsa

#127 KSU
#119 Akron
#117 BSU
#116 CMU

(02-16-2018 10:38 AM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  What sets us apart from these schools you mention? Bottom line is we are a small nationally irrelevant program in the middle of BIG footprint. We have a very small fan base as 90% of our alumni are either M, MSU, or Notre Dame fans and they raise their kids the same way. Your argument could be made for any G5 program, (put us in a more desired conference and the fans/support will automatically follow). As much as i would like to see it, it's not happening.

So what should we do? Just continue with mediocrity and accept it? What sets us apart? We have the best football venue in the MAC. Kalamazoo is a college town and there really aren't any neighboring colleges on the West Side of Michigan. We've proven we can host a college game-day, gone to a new years six bowl, one downside is we've never won a bowl game. We need to get that on our resume, hopefully starting this year.

(02-16-2018 11:57 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 10:38 AM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  What sets us apart from these schools you mention? Bottom line is we are a small nationally irrelevant program in the middle of BIG footprint. We have a very small fan base as 90% of our alumni are either M, MSU, or Notre Dame fans and they raise their kids the same way. Your argument could be made for any G5 program, (put us in a more desired conference and the fans/support will automatically follow). As much as i would like to see it, it's not happening.

So what should we do? Just continue with mediocrity and accept it? What sets us apart? We have the best football venue in the MAC. Kalamazoo is a college town and there really aren't any neighboring colleges on the West Side of Michigan. We've proven we can host a college game-day, gone to a new years six bowl, one downside is we've never won a bowl game. We need to get that on our resume, hopefully starting this year.

You do the things necessary to be the cream of the crop in the MAC which unfortunately is almost entirely dependent on donor $$. (coaching staff, facilities, better marketing!, etc..) This was Fleck's greatest strength, energizing the big time donors and marketing. TBD if Lester can continue that, I'm hoping so.

We would need a 10 year run dominating the MAC with multiple bowl wins (including a few G5 new years invites), several upsets of top tier P5 programs on a national stage, start selling out regularly to the point where we need to increase capacity, and would also need the rest of the MAC to step it up to become a more respectable conference. At that point we may look attractive if/when conference re-alignment happens.

(02-16-2018 09:34 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 06:47 PM)brovol Wrote:  Becoming an independent would be a problem for WMU. Who would we play? Answer: MAC schools, if they have a spot. Bottom line is that scheduling would be an issue, and we would end up with more away games than we have now. We are neither notre dame, nor Army; schools which are highly marketable.

The MAC fits us well, even if not without a few drawbacks. It's a good competitive conference, and we have a long history here. I'm not sure what are the desire to leave the MAC is all about.

You get your 4 first games of the season that are out of conference anyway. Then you have to find a way to pick up nine games, maybe two/three of those are against respectable MAC teams like CMU, northern Illinois, etc. That leaves 6 games left that you need to find opponents for. I'm sure that's doable even if you have to start with lower level G5 teams for a year or lower P5 teams on the road until the program builds up. how about try and scheduele with other independents, I'm sure we could get BYU, UMASS, probably not army or Norte dame(at home at least).

Take a look at UMass' schedules, but eliminate the trips to Gillette Stadium, as I doubt WMU could get games annually at Ford Field or Soldier Field. Going independent is folly.

(02-16-2018 12:19 PM)bronconick Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 09:34 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 06:47 PM)brovol Wrote:  Becoming an independent would be a problem for WMU. Who would we play? Answer: MAC schools, if they have a spot. Bottom line is that scheduling would be an issue, and we would end up with more away games than we have now. We are neither notre dame, nor Army; schools which are highly marketable.

The MAC fits us well, even if not without a few drawbacks. It's a good competitive conference, and we have a long history here. I'm not sure what are the desire to leave the MAC is all about.

You get your 4 first games of the season that are out of conference anyway. Then you have to find a way to pick up nine games, maybe two/three of those are against respectable MAC teams like CMU, northern Illinois, etc. That leaves 6 games left that you need to find opponents for. I'm sure that's doable even if you have to start with lower level G5 teams for a year or lower P5 teams on the road until the program builds up. how about try and scheduele with other independents, I'm sure we could get BYU, UMASS, probably not army or Norte dame(at home at least).

Take a look at UMass' schedules, but eliminate the trips to Gillette Stadium, as I doubt WMU could get games annually at Ford Field or Soldier Field. Going independent is folly.

Hawaii, BYU, USF, Miss St, Temple, Tennesse. Not seeing the issue here? All desirable opponents, maybe not Hawaii as much. I would take any of those matchups any day of the week over Ball state, akron, BGSU. And most of those desirable teams were played during the regular season schedule, you could in theory add 3-4 more opponents in the first 4 games against other schools, our schedule could look like Syracuse, @MI St, Cinnci, Georgia st, @BYU, @Temple, Hawaii, Central Mich, Toledo, @Notre Dame, @USF, etc. If UMASS can do it I think we could do it.

UMass hasn't come close to a winning football season in years, even when in MAC.

Our only win in Fleck's rookie season was over them, when they were also 1-11.

Bad analogy.

(02-15-2018 03:24 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 02:53 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  Don't like their arrogance, but it's true that the AAC is the cream of the G5 conferences. But it'd be very difficult for any MAC school to get a look by the AAC, even habitual MAC champions NIU didn't get a wink. The AAC is primarily made up of schools in largely populated urban areas/TV markets with annual home attendances that double/triple MAC averages. Smallish Midwestern cities with <10K late fall crowds don't fit the bill.

Could be a scenario someday where the Big XII starts sniffing around top-notch schools like Memphis, Houston, etc. Although once larger names get poached, you're left with CUSA 3.0.

In a purely hypothetical situation, I don't think travel costs would be that large of a barrier in the decision making (although you'd have to count on a few more football bodybag games). The NCHC outside of Miami OH is dispersed, and it's probably more costly to get to places like Grand Forks, Duluth and Colorado Springs than it is to major cities of Philly, Tampa and Memphis. Granted, that's only one sport.

Agreed. Were not getting into AAC. I think the move is to get out of the MAC and go independent, you'll get a much more interesting schedule.

You should ask long time fans of NIU how being an independent worked out for them after they left the MAC. Hint: they came crawling back to the conference after a few years in the wilderness.

The only schools that were able to make being an independent work are Notre Dame, Army and Navy. Name recognition helps, as is obvious. There is no upside to being without a conference.

(02-16-2018 06:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You should ask long time fans of NIU how being an independent worked out for them after they left the MAC. Hint: they came crawling back to the conference after a few years in the wilderness.

The only schools that were able to make being an independent work are Notre Dame, Army and Navy. Name recognition helps, as is obvious. There is no upside to being without a conference.

Not to mention NIU's ill-fated foray into the Big West conference 1993-95.

The only way I'd support an independent move is if the MAC collapsed somehow (i.e. like CCHA did) and we were suddenly left homeless. Otherwise it's a non-starter.

Here is UMass' 2018 schedule:

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-18/2018-...hedule.php


2 P5 (ACC, SEC)
2 CUSA
2 Sun Belt
2 AAC
2 Indies (BYU, Liberty)
1 MAC
1 FCS

We typically have 2 P5s and an FCS in any given season, so that's a wash.

So all WMU would be doing is trading 8 MAC games for probably 2-3 MAC (figure EMU, CMU) plus 5-6 randomly scattered among CUSA, Sun Belt and AAC, and the occasional Army and of course UMass. And we are out in the wilderness in terms of bowls with no conference tie-ins.

The 'sexier' B1G schools are not interrupting their conference schedules to squeeze us in.

This would not move the local attendance and interest needle at all, and would probably reduce it.

We should never leave the MAC unless we have no choice in the matter.

Silly conversation.

Going Independent in football is maybe the worst idea I've heard. Why? How does one recruit quality student-athletes to a mid-major school that competes as an independent? What's your selling point? "Maybe, just maybe if we finish 7-5 or 6-6 we can take a trip to Boise to play in the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl against another no-name school in 30-degree temperatures! Wow!" At least a conference title gives players something tangible to play for and fans something tangible to root for.

I don't think playing UConn, Liberty, UMass, Army, BYU and a scattering of bad Sun Belt, CUSA or AAC programs is going to be a compelling selling point to the average fan. The average Kalamazoo resident or WMU student doesn't give any more or less of a crap about Memphis, BYU or Old Dominion than they do Buffalo or Kent State.

I consider myself a casual fan of WMU football. I attend one game a year and watch about half of the games - usually the two premier non-conference games, plus CMU, NIU and Toledo. If we use the UMass schedule as an example, I see maybe two or three matchups (or their midwest equivalents) that I'd genuinely be interested in. That's equal to how I generally feel about the non conference schedule right now - and I'm way more interested in Toledo, NIU, CMU in conference play than any of the other possible matchups mentioned. I'm not convinced that any conference or independent move is going to put more butts in the seats at Waldo on a cold November day in the middle of Big 10 country.

This idea that WMU deserves a "better" conference is laughable to me. Across the board, WMU athletics has been average in a mediocre conference basically forever. There isn't a major program at our school that has ever had a consistent run of titles. This idea that we deserve better than the MAC ... I really have no idea where that comes from. WMU has never won consistently enough, or proven it draw at a high enough rate to prove it deserves better.

If schools would drop FB or move to FCS, then maybe form a new Conference/regroup adding teams like Marshall, WKU, and MTSU.

I’m fine with the MAC in any sport but football, and obviously hockey. It’s fine for b-ball as no MAC team ever gets past the first round anyway. It’s a good soccer conference with Akron, us and WVA.

Football however is the cash cow. It’s not about “we deserve better.” It’s about improving your brand. The AAC is in large markets. UC Navy Houston UCF Temple are all far more interesting opponents than Akron, Balls, and Kent.

I can hop a plane to Tampa or Orlando for $80 and catch road game and have a warm weather game in November. Lots of WMU UT alums in FL as well. More revenue would be generated playing in the AAC. I’d like to see us, UT, and UB, head that direction. I’d be fine going Horizon in Basketball. Would love to see GVSU go Horizon as well. I don’t buy the NIU Chicago connection. Chicago is a pro sports town that doesn’t even support NW. Same with EMU Detroit, where EMU will never get out from under the UM and pro sports shadow.

The MAC is stuck in nuetral. Always trying to claim relevancy. It’s locked into the worst TV deal you can imagine and is quite content seeing CUSA AAC Mountain West and even the Sun Belt pass them by. In basket ball the MVC Horizon and A10 are leaving us in the dust.

We have a couple of billionaire donors who view themselves as the Jerry Jones of WMU sports. I’m sure they’d be all in to upgrade their little sports toy.

(02-18-2018 12:23 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  I’m fine with the MAC in any sport but football, and obviously hockey. It’s fine for b-ball as no MAC team ever gets past the first round anyway. It’s a good soccer conference with Akron, us and WVA.

Football however is the cash cow. It’s not about “we deserve better.” It’s about improving your brand. The AAC is in large markets. UC Navy Houston UCF Temple are all far more interesting opponents than Akron, Balls, and Kent.

I can hop a plane to Tampa or Orlando for $80 and catch road game and have a warm weather game in November. Lots of WMU UT alums in FL as well. More revenue would be generated playing in the AAC. I’d like to see us, UT, and UB, head that direction. I’d be fine going Horizon in Basketball. Would love to see GVSU go Horizon as well. I don’t buy the NIU Chicago connection. Chicago is a pro sports town that doesn’t even support NW. Same with EMU Detroit, where EMU will never get out from under the UM and pro sports shadow.

The MAC is stuck in nuetral. Always trying to claim relevancy. It’s locked into the worst TV deal you can imagine and is quite content seeing CUSA AAC Mountain West and even the Sun Belt pass them by. In basket ball the MVC Horizon and A10 are leaving us in the dust.

We have a couple of billionaire donors who view themselves as the Jerry Jones of WMU sports. I’m sure they’d be all in to upgrade their little sports toy.

Agree with most of what you said. Playing teams like Cincy, navy, and UCF would prove to show a HUGE increase in revenue. I don't buy the whole "we don't deserve better" because that's not what it's about and tbh I think we do deserve better. We have arguably the best football venue/stadium in the MAC and there is a Large demand for college football in kalamazoo and west Michigan, as a student at WMU I can tell you when I ask my buddies if they're going to the football game they usually say "no" unless it's against Central or a P5 opponent(then everybody goes). I can tell you right now the increase of student participation alone would be massive if we moved to the AAC. No college kid wants to watch us play Kent state in November when we get aired on ESPN 8 and the stadium is at half capacity. As for basketball, that's a whole other animal, I don't think half the students have ever been to a WMU basketball game. The MAC has been depreciating and its dragging us down with it.

People who think WMU could do well as an independent are CLUELESS.

WMU has no name recognition for TV as evidenced by lack of a Bowl invite last year so there would be no TV deal like Notre Dame or Army.

To fund the sport, WMU would likely have to play 3-4 P5 schools which kills your chance at a win in season. The travel would negate all revenue.

Plus where would the other sports go? The MAC wouldn’t let WMU stay in basketball if they’re taking football out. Horizon? Summit?

It’s never going to happen nor should it. UMass will have to go FCS IMO in next 3 years.

As for the AAC, why not just try to consistently win 9-10 games in the MAC before people think we deserve more. I don’t believe just the opponent is the reason for bad attendance. 2 years ago games were all over 25k because the team was dominant. But no one wants to watch 2 6-6/7-5 teams that aren’t in the hunt for a title.

(02-18-2018 02:09 PM)Wmufan715 Wrote:  People who think WMU could do well as an independent are CLUELESS.

WMU has no name recognition for TV as evidenced by lack of a Bowl invite last year so there would be no TV deal like Notre Dame or Army.

To fund the sport, WMU would likely have to play 3-4 P5 schools which kills your chance at a win in season. The travel would negate all revenue.

Plus where would the other sports go? The MAC wouldn’t let WMU stay in basketball if they’re taking football out. Horizon? Summit?

It’s never going to happen nor should it. UMass will have to go FCS IMO in next 3 years.

As for the AAC, why not just try to consistently win 9-10 games in the MAC before people think we deserve more. I don’t believe just the opponent is the reason for bad attendance. 2 years ago games were all over 25k because the team was dominant. But no one wants to watch 2 6-6/7-5 teams that aren’t in the hunt for a title.

Ok I will agree with you that going independent would be a struggle. But I honestly do believe that the opponent is the reason for poor attendance, yes whether the team is having a good season or not plays a large role as well. But look at 2016 we went undefeated and yes attendance rose to about 23k per home game, but we went UNDEFEATED that year and still couldn't sell games out, why? Because nobody wants to watch us play teams like Kent st, Akron, and UB. And yes striving for 10 win seasons in the MAC may be what it takes, hopefully Lester can get us there.

I don't think anyone would argue that going football in AAC wouldn't be awesome. But let's be realistic, do you really think AAC would ever consider WMU? Sure we're in a decent TV market, but majority of that market is watching big ten on saturdays.

Our alignment with the MAC is the only thing keeping WMU Athletics afloat. If you think it's bad scraping by year after year now, just imagine what it would be without the conference. There is just no way we will ever be 'independent'. Jumping to another conference? Maybe.

But, the original post in this thread was about scheduling Cincy. I would love to see us schedule more mid-tier P5 schools. Indiana, Wake Forest, Cincinnati, Vanderbilt... they all make sense.