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Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #21
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 11:05 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Public sector union: "You give us this contract and we'll donate to your re-election campaign"
This is not how it works and you know that.

That's exactly how it works, except it's, "...and we'll donate to your-election campaign and provide volunteers to help with that campaign and turn up in a bloc to vote for you." And you know that.

Mach, you're better than this.
02-12-2018 11:25 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 11:05 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Public sector union: "You give us this contract and we'll donate to your re-election campaign"


This is not how it works and you know that.

That's EXACTLY how it works. Maybe not in those exact words but the principal is the same.
02-12-2018 11:28 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
It’s not and maybe you don’t know it. Plenty of areas have red school boards and you find a way to make it work. You have bargaining rights. Without them it’s a take it or leave it. Are there places with what you describe? Sure but I would guess the majority of school boards in our state are held by Republicans. Yes we do have the right to vote and yes we do volunteer for certain candidates but that by no means victory for that candidate. The chamber of commerce selects their people too! That’s the part that you guys forget. Plenty of forces are against unions too. You guys just want the deck to continue to be stacked in your favor. You are taking every tool out of the toolbox. It might be a fatal blow. I would argue with Unions Denise you have seen the demise of the middle class. This isn’t rocket science. And...... I do speak the truth.
02-12-2018 11:32 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
School boards are voted on. I’m sure there are places that you describe but in my experience it has been the polar opposite.
02-12-2018 11:35 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
I've yet to see a union worker who could out-produce someone whose earnings were merit/performance based.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2018 11:36 AM by TigerBlue4Ever.)
02-12-2018 11:36 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 11:21 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Found this about Wisconsin. Fact based article that doesn't take a side. Just the facts. Unions have been decimated. Fast and hard fall.


https://projects.jsonline.com/news/2016/...ct-10.html

From your link:

Quote:Public-sector unions now have to win support from a majority of employees in the bargaining unit, not just a majority of those voting in the certification election. Every year.

Oh the horror! The extortionists are required to have majority support of the people they want to extort money from in order to be a union. We can't have free choice now can we?

Oh and then there's this:

Quote:On a practical — and political — level, labor has less money to boost Democratic campaigns, and a diminished pool of foot soldiers to offer.

Its muscle was not able to secure a Wisconsin win for Feingold, or presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.

Nor has it been enough to block Walker in three elections, or to stop the continued depletion of Democratic lawmakers in the state Senate and Assembly.

Quote:In 1959, state lawmakers handed teachers collective bargaining rights they had not even sought. At the time, they were professionals without union organization rights.

From there, they quickly developed into a political juggernaut in the 1960s and 1970s, fueled by millions of dollars in dues payments.

At the Capitol, legislative leaders would kill bills if a lawmaker didn’t want a vote to anger the statewide Wisconsin Education Association Council, an arm of the National Education Association.
Sounds exactly like what I said.. tit for tat negotiations.
02-12-2018 11:44 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
Kaplony,

I said the article was fact based not an opinion piece. You guys have won and I fully expect that Gorsuch will be the final vote to kill unions. Congrats. You've won. Horrible for the middle class in my opinion but the desired effect of killing unions will be complete.
02-12-2018 11:50 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 11:19 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  At the end of this....

You get teachers arrested for complaining about a Superintendent making 150,000 why teachers make 50,000. That's where Right to Work leads. Inequality.

Yes, it is happening. You've won. It's just bad for the vast majority of society.

It's not bad for the majority of society - just not good for union members.

We all know you are a union shill and always will be. Bottom line, in the public sector the union negotiations are always one sided because the side that is agreeing to some bad deal has no skin in the game and when it goes bad they won't be there to take the fall. It makes for an extremely one sided negotiation.....
02-12-2018 11:52 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
Underhandedly and despicably the fascist have won. No sense in denying reality. This will kill unions. Horrible for the middle class in my opinion but the desired effect of killing unions will be complete.
02-12-2018 12:53 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
That 1.4 billion saved in taxes sure will buy some elections too. That Citizens United was a decisive victory also. The mouth piece gets larger unions get smaller. No sense of denying reality. Piss in the wind. Corporations have won.
02-12-2018 12:55 PM
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gdunn Online
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Post: #31
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 12:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Underhandedly and despicably the fascist have won. No sense in denying reality. This will kill unions. Horrible for the middle class in my opinion but the desired effect of killing unions will be complete.

Unions have outlived their purpose. When unions formed many years ago there was a need, now not so much.

UAW has a by law in their contract that basically says once they're in they can never be voted out, however they can keep trying til voted in. That's not a fair tactic nor should anyone be forced to join a union if they don't want to.

You say facist, but what's so bad about a person making what they're worth vs making what everyone is making per union rules?
02-12-2018 12:57 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 08:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You are a citizen and can vote and this is why Gorsuch was such a huge deal. It's a stolen seat.

Maybe then Schumer should not have pushed for presidents to not appoint in a lame duck session back when Bush was president..
02-12-2018 01:00 PM
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gdunn Online
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Post: #33
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(02-12-2018 08:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You are a citizen and can vote and this is why Gorsuch was such a huge deal. It's a stolen seat.

Maybe then Schumer should not have pushed for presidents to not appoint in a lame duck session back when Bush was president..

Elections have consequences?
02-12-2018 01:14 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 12:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Underhandedly and despicably the fascist have won. No sense in denying reality. This will kill unions. Horrible for the middle class in my opinion but the desired effect of killing unions will be complete.

Do you disagree there is a conflict of interest when elected officials accept lobbying and campaign contributions from the public sector unions they are negotiating with?

I don't think unions are the problem. It's the politicians who allow and facilitate this system.
02-12-2018 01:19 PM
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Eldonabe Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
Unions have become exactly what they were originally intended to stop.......... Greed

Slave wages and no benefits have transformed into 8 hours of pay for about 2 hours of work. Legal bills to fight grievances for a manager asking people to just simply perform the job they were hired to do.

My wife was in a Teachers Union - and it was despicable. The Steward in her building was never in his classroom doing his job because of union business, and basically spent his time calling out members of his own union who worked too hard and therefore making the others look bad. SHe is on the management side now, and the stuff these people come up with to avoid working is mind blowing.
02-12-2018 01:45 PM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
(02-12-2018 12:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Underhandedly and despicably the fascist have won. No sense in denying reality. This will kill unions. Horrible for the middle class in my opinion but the desired effect of killing unions will be complete.

Unions would not be in this position if all they did was collectively bargain wages and benefits - but as you know and anyone that has to deal with a union knows - that's not where it stops.

The politics they involve themselves in and the protection of members that rightly should lose their jobs for a multitude of infractions...........this is what has killed unions.

Not horrible for the middle class in southern states where manufacturing is on the rise. A whole new group of middle class people working in manufacturing.

Where you live in NE Ohio - union jobs disappearing.....
02-12-2018 01:56 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
OK... we complain about lobbyist and unions affecting politicians. OK I agree. Now what are we going to do about corporations doing the exact same thing? Anything? Unions were a buffer to fascism. That is being erased. I am worried about our middle class. I always saw the warts of unions as a necessary evil. I have no ill conceived notions of their problems but when you say their time is passed. I say they have never been needed more.
02-12-2018 01:57 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
The politics they involve themselves in and the protection of members that rightly should lose their jobs for a multitude of infractions...........this is what has killed unions.


I understand this, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
02-12-2018 01:58 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
I was taking a hazmat incident management course once with fellow firefighters from all over the east coast. At night we would go out to eat and get a couple drinks and talk shop. One of the guys was from a dept up north and was amazed when a couple of us from down south talked about how we became involved with our hazmat team. We told him that we had volunteered to join the team and in my case actually had to test for it because our special operations division handled technical rescue as well. In his department the hazmat team members are decided by seniority because the extra training resulted in a lot of overtime pay and all of their overtime was by contract allotted by how long you had been in the department. He said he had been on the department for almost six years before he was ever selected for an overtime shift. This was primarily because retirements were based on the last X number of year's salaries so you had guys trying to coast at the end of their careers who ate up as much overtime as they could. He said as a result you had a bunch of people on the hazmat team who didn't really want to be there and were there for the money, and had the typical problems you get when people aren't dedicated to their craft.

What really amazed him though was when I talked about how we would have the assigned crew on a particular apparatus "step up" a slot when someone was out. If the Captain was out and the Engineer wasn't on probation the Engineer would be the acting Captain. If the Engineer was out the Senior Firefighter would be he acting Engineer. If the Firefighter was off probation they would fill the Senior Firefighter role and whoever was called in on OT would ride as the firefighter, even if they were technically a Senior Firefighter or Engineer. He told us that it was in their contract that whatever rank was out had to be replaced by someone of equal or greater rank. While we were giving our junior personnel a chance at gaining valuable career experience they were padding their pockets.

That and many other stories over the years told me all I needed to know about public sector unions and the damage they can cause.
02-12-2018 02:17 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Could Supreme Court case spell the end of public sector unions?
There are things I don’t like about unions too. I get it but they act as a buffer. Rising tide lifts all boats mentality. I just look at the quality of life I’m right to work States versus Union States. What will be interesting is to watch the quality of life in Wisconsin and Michigan and see if they go down vs Union States. You watch who is right. I bet it’s me. Yes, unions do have warts though. No doubt but look at what happens without them. Inequality.
02-12-2018 02:57 PM
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