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Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 07:31 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 06:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 04:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 01:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  As much as I am opposed to instant eligibility in general (to prevent smaller schools from becoming defacto farm systems), these proposals make sense.


If coaches have the freedom to come and go without penalty, so athletes if the coach leaves.

And coaches NEVER should have been able to block transfers to certain schools.

I don't agree with never. I believe that a coach should be able to block a transfer to any scheduled opponents during the span of eligibility for competitive reasons. If a player wants to transfer from East Central State the ECS coach should be able to block them from going to Middle Northern Tech if Middle Northern Tech is on their schedule every year.

That would be the only blocking I would be in favor of.

Why should a coach be able to take a new job with a school that is a scheduled opponent of their current school, but a player can't do the same?

Dan Mullen and Florida play Mississippi State NEXT YEAR. To be fair with Kaplony, Florida needs to forfeit the game.

You might have a point if Mississippi State was locked in to playing the exact same style of ball they played when Mullen was there, but with a new coaching staff comes a new style of play so you don't.

A player leaving a team to go to an opponent provides an unnatural insight into how a team is going to do things.

But as the former HC, he has knowledge of what his PLAYERS strengths and weaknesses are, far more than a single player would be able to help a new coach.
01-31-2018 07:39 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 02:23 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  What I think is interesting is the potential for abuse by the new coach. Hey I'm not going to renew your scholarship at Enormous State University but the coach at Northeastsouthwest Tech has said if you transfer there you have a scholarship waiting on you. Makes it easier for the new coach to clean house and recruit his own people.

This happens all the time anyway. It's most prominent in basketball, where some newly-hired coaches make it a condition of accepting the job that the school agrees the new coach can non-renew any or all players who are on the roster when he is hired.
01-31-2018 07:43 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 07:28 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 04:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 01:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  As much as I am opposed to instant eligibility in general (to prevent smaller schools from becoming defacto farm systems), these proposals make sense.


If coaches have the freedom to come and go without penalty, so athletes if the coach leaves.

And coaches NEVER should have been able to block transfers to certain schools.

I don't agree with never. I believe that a coach should be able to block a transfer to any scheduled opponents during the span of eligibility for competitive reasons. If a player wants to transfer from East Central State the ECS coach should be able to block them from going to Middle Northern Tech if Middle Northern Tech is on their schedule every year.

That would be the only blocking I would be in favor of.

Why should a coach be able to take a new job with a school that is a scheduled opponent of their current school, but a player can't do the same?

Typically a coach takes his strategy, etc. with him when he goes and it's replaced by the next coach. He doesn't change his coaching strategy when a player leaves.

Yes, but that coach also takes very detailed knowledge of the abilities and tendencies of the players he leaves behind. His knowledge is likely much broader and deeper than that of a player who leaves.

I daresay that if both Dabo Swinney and Clemson's starting right defensive end both left Clemson this year, the former for FSU, the latter for South Carolina, FSU would know a whole lot more about Clemson's team next year than would SC.
01-31-2018 07:43 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
I've thought about this after reading the thread.

I'm for letting the kids move anywhere they want to including to a rival. I have one exception. They shouldn't be permitted to move to the old coach's new school.

I also agree with Attack Coug about raising the signing cap limit for the season affected by transfers.

My objection to transferring to the old coach's new school is that this is where the real danger is. A coach leaving could gut key personnel if they were permitted to travel to the coach's new school. I think that needs to be nipped. Other than that the kids should be free to play anywhere else.
01-31-2018 11:01 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 07:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 07:28 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 04:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 01:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  As much as I am opposed to instant eligibility in general (to prevent smaller schools from becoming defacto farm systems), these proposals make sense.


If coaches have the freedom to come and go without penalty, so athletes if the coach leaves.

And coaches NEVER should have been able to block transfers to certain schools.

I don't agree with never. I believe that a coach should be able to block a transfer to any scheduled opponents during the span of eligibility for competitive reasons. If a player wants to transfer from East Central State the ECS coach should be able to block them from going to Middle Northern Tech if Middle Northern Tech is on their schedule every year.

That would be the only blocking I would be in favor of.

Why should a coach be able to take a new job with a school that is a scheduled opponent of their current school, but a player can't do the same?

Typically a coach takes his strategy, etc. with him when he goes and it's replaced by the next coach. He doesn't change his coaching strategy when a player leaves.

Yes, but that coach also takes very detailed knowledge of the abilities and tendencies of the players he leaves behind. His knowledge is likely much broader and deeper than that of a player who leaves.

I daresay that if both Dabo Swinney and Clemson's starting right defensive end both left Clemson this year, the former for FSU, the latter for South Carolina, FSU would know a whole lot more about Clemson's team next year than would SC.

Actually they would both have the same level of information, almost nothing, because the new coach is going to have a totally new strategy and approach to a game. They can tell them what they did the year before all they want and it's not going to help very much because of a new style of offense/defense/etc.
02-01-2018 12:26 AM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
Never been a fan of free transfers. You commit to the school, not to the coach. My fear is that larger schools will use this to their advantage to gut smaller schools of top players every coaching change.

Imagine if schools had the freedom to gut Central Florida's roster because Frost left and the players earned immediate transfer eligibility. Even if Nebraska couldn't come and do it, that wouldn't stop anyone else.

I just don't like the idea of a system that is athlete friendly. It should be school friendly.
02-01-2018 02:46 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
If the coaches can walk around freely, so should the kids. The fact that it hasn't been implemented yet shows there is no honor among the thieves, still.

This will happen for the kids...but not until there's a solution for schools losing the scholarship. And since there never was a firm adoption of the full-commitment from schools to kids no matter who the coach was, this alternative seems disingenuous and self-serving. It allows the "not my kid" practice of house-cleaning to remain, and by giving the kids some more freedom, also allows the school who sheds the kids to invest less in supporting them finding alternatives.

You'll still have that unspoken rule thing about taking certain programs' guys in places...that will never change.
02-01-2018 04:38 AM
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EmeryZach Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
This could possibly devastate teams, especially basketball. I really hope it doesn't happen.
02-01-2018 08:27 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 07:43 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:23 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  What I think is interesting is the potential for abuse by the new coach. Hey I'm not going to renew your scholarship at Enormous State University but the coach at Northeastsouthwest Tech has said if you transfer there you have a scholarship waiting on you. Makes it easier for the new coach to clean house and recruit his own people.

This happens all the time anyway. It's most prominent in basketball, where some newly-hired coaches make it a condition of accepting the job that the school agrees the new coach can non-renew any or all players who are on the roster when he is hired.

But it is very rare in football because of the 25 newcomer limit and 76.5 minimum scholarship requirements.

When Blake Anderson was hired as the 5th coach in five year at AState he couldn't run anyone off and was actively trying to keep some marginal guys with bad attitudes from quitting to avoid falling under the minimum scholarship limits.

The only deterrent in basketball is APR. When Central Arkansas hired their coach they were already in APR trouble so the new coach flushed the team and started over.
02-01-2018 10:04 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(01-31-2018 11:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I've thought about this after reading the thread.

I'm for letting the kids move anywhere they want to including to a rival. I have one exception. They shouldn't be permitted to move to the old coach's new school.

I also agree with Attack Coug about raising the signing cap limit for the season affected by transfers.

My objection to transferring to the old coach's new school is that this is where the real danger is. A coach leaving could gut key personnel if they were permitted to travel to the coach's new school. I think that needs to be nipped. Other than that the kids should be free to play anywhere else.
That's in the proposal.
The interesting thing is when a coach leaves for a bigger job, usually having access to more assistant money means not every assistant gets to go to the new school. I'm curious if an assistant who lands at a school other than the head coach's new school will be covered.
02-01-2018 10:07 AM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #31
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 02:46 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Never been a fan of free transfers. You commit to the school, not to the coach. My fear is that larger schools will use this to their advantage to gut smaller schools of top players every coaching change.

Imagine if schools had the freedom to gut Central Florida's roster because Frost left and the players earned immediate transfer eligibility. Even if Nebraska couldn't come and do it, that wouldn't stop anyone else.

I just don't like the idea of a system that is athlete friendly. It should be school friendly.

Who are the best recruiters at AState?

If the kids are committing to AState rather than Trooper or Early it doesn't matter that they are the best recruiters on the staff.

The public doesn't understand that intercollegiate athletics under NCAA rules and Federal law are more than football and basketball and the riches brought in by athletics support those other programs to some degree, fully at an Alabama or Ohio State, partially at an AState or ECU. So players aren't likely to ever get paid, coaches in the top sports are in general going to be paid out-sized salaries. The days of a head football coach in Division I being paid like they are an Instructor in the PE Department or if lucky, like a full professor are long gone and dead and buried. Student-athletes should be given an out if a school is barred from post-season or the head coach departs.
02-01-2018 10:13 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 10:04 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 07:43 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:23 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  What I think is interesting is the potential for abuse by the new coach. Hey I'm not going to renew your scholarship at Enormous State University but the coach at Northeastsouthwest Tech has said if you transfer there you have a scholarship waiting on you. Makes it easier for the new coach to clean house and recruit his own people.

This happens all the time anyway. It's most prominent in basketball, where some newly-hired coaches make it a condition of accepting the job that the school agrees the new coach can non-renew any or all players who are on the roster when he is hired.

But it is very rare in football because of the 25 newcomer limit and 76.5 minimum scholarship requirements.

When Blake Anderson was hired as the 5th coach in five year at AState he couldn't run anyone off and was actively trying to keep some marginal guys with bad attitudes from quitting to avoid falling under the minimum scholarship limits.

The only deterrent in basketball is APR. When Central Arkansas hired their coach they were already in APR trouble so the new coach flushed the team and started over.

That points up two issues that, for football, would need to be dealt with:

1) It makes sense to allow a team to go over the limit of 25 to bring in new recruits when players decide to go elsewhere after a coaching change, but it could also create a perverse incentive for a new coach to chase players out of the program, if he gets to add one new recruit for every scholarship athlete he forces off the team.

2) There would have to be a waiver of the FBS football scholarship minimum for any program that has a coaching change or a postseason ban. If a head coach leaves for any reason, and half of the returning players on his "old" team transfer out, then the new head coach could very well have a difficult time getting up to the 76.5 scholarship minimum for the first two seasons.
02-01-2018 11:03 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 12:26 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 07:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 07:28 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 04:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 02:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I don't agree with never. I believe that a coach should be able to block a transfer to any scheduled opponents during the span of eligibility for competitive reasons. If a player wants to transfer from East Central State the ECS coach should be able to block them from going to Middle Northern Tech if Middle Northern Tech is on their schedule every year.

That would be the only blocking I would be in favor of.

Why should a coach be able to take a new job with a school that is a scheduled opponent of their current school, but a player can't do the same?

Typically a coach takes his strategy, etc. with him when he goes and it's replaced by the next coach. He doesn't change his coaching strategy when a player leaves.

Yes, but that coach also takes very detailed knowledge of the abilities and tendencies of the players he leaves behind. His knowledge is likely much broader and deeper than that of a player who leaves.

I daresay that if both Dabo Swinney and Clemson's starting right defensive end both left Clemson this year, the former for FSU, the latter for South Carolina, FSU would know a whole lot more about Clemson's team next year than would SC.

Actually they would both have the same level of information, almost nothing, because the new coach is going to have a totally new strategy and approach to a game. They can tell them what they did the year before all they want and it's not going to help very much because of a new style of offense/defense/etc.

... which then takes us back to the original issue - if a coach can leave for a school on their old school's schedule, then a player should be able to as well.
02-01-2018 11:28 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 11:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ... which then takes us back to the original issue - if a coach can leave for a school on their old school's schedule, then a player should be able to as well.

Right, and while the fair and equitable thing to do would be to just allow the players this, we can't expect this body to do anything on that base value. There always needs to be some transaction for it.
02-01-2018 11:31 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 11:03 AM)Wedge Wrote:  1) It makes sense to allow a team to go over the limit of 25 to bring in new recruits when players decide to go elsewhere after a coaching change, but it could also create a perverse incentive for a new coach to chase players out of the program, if he gets to add one new recruit for every scholarship athlete he forces off the team.

2) There would have to be a waiver of the FBS football scholarship minimum for any program that has a coaching change or a postseason ban. If a head coach leaves for any reason, and half of the returning players on his "old" team transfer out, then the new head coach could very well have a difficult time getting up to the 76.5 scholarship minimum for the first two seasons.

Yep, and these are the kinds of devilish details that might make a seemingly simple and straightforward - and fair - proposal problematic. I bet policing these waivers and transitions will be a big headache.

There are moving parts that are impacted by this proposal, and i suspect schools will quickly figure out how to game the system in ways unintended by its authors.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2018 11:48 AM by quo vadis.)
02-01-2018 11:47 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 04:38 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If the coaches can walk around freely, so should the kids. The fact that it hasn't been implemented yet shows there is no honor among the thieves, still.

This will happen for the kids...but not until there's a solution for schools losing the scholarship. And since there never was a firm adoption of the full-commitment from schools to kids no matter who the coach was, this alternative seems disingenuous and self-serving. It allows the "not my kid" practice of house-cleaning to remain, and by giving the kids some more freedom, also allows the school who sheds the kids to invest less in supporting them finding alternatives.

You'll still have that unspoken rule thing about taking certain programs' guys in places...that will never change.

Well---coaches do have to pay a monetary penalty. A year off was a good compromise that avoided any monetary penalty to the player.

I have to say I am somewhat sympathetic to players who sign with a coach only to see him leave a year later. Heck, with the current early signing date, the coach who signs you in December could be gone by January.

I really dont care for the one and done/high transfer rate mentality we see in college basketball. That said, its hard to say its not fair to allow the kids to go elsewhere if their coach leaves.

The problem I see is---even if a team gets extra scholarships for lost transfers--we are talking about losing not only your coach, your staff---but also established kids with experience in the program. Its going to be very hard to avoid a massive drop off every time a coach leaves. So--Ive been giving this some thought.

How about this as an option? If a coach leaves a program, the kids there can go to another program without sitting a year. Now add this----If you transfer TO a school with a NEW coach, you can transfer from anywhere, without losing a year. I think I'd tie the number of transfers allowed to "a school losing its coach" to the number of players that leave that same team via transfer after it lost its coach. So, if 4 are lost via transfer after losing a coach---then 4 could come in from anywhere and be immediately eligible via transfer.

I think that might work in conjunction with extra scholarships for players that transfer out. So, lets say you lose 6 players to transfer the year your coach leaves. You replace all 6 with transfers from other schools that are immediately eligible. In that case, you get no extra scholarships. If you lose 6, but replace 3 with transfers that are immediately eligible, then you'd have 3 extra scholarships to give that year (28 instead of 25---assuming that giving 28 would not put you over the 85 man hard total scholarship cap).

I think something like that might keep a school's performance from dropping completely off the table every time a coach left.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2018 12:01 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-01-2018 11:53 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
I think you still have the issue of programs not only losing their coach, but some of their best players, on a regular basis. That would almost certainly impact G5 schools more than P5 since any good G5 coach gets hired away within a few years.
02-01-2018 12:11 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 11:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-01-2018 11:03 AM)Wedge Wrote:  1) It makes sense to allow a team to go over the limit of 25 to bring in new recruits when players decide to go elsewhere after a coaching change, but it could also create a perverse incentive for a new coach to chase players out of the program, if he gets to add one new recruit for every scholarship athlete he forces off the team.

2) There would have to be a waiver of the FBS football scholarship minimum for any program that has a coaching change or a postseason ban. If a head coach leaves for any reason, and half of the returning players on his "old" team transfer out, then the new head coach could very well have a difficult time getting up to the 76.5 scholarship minimum for the first two seasons.

Yep, and these are the kinds of devilish details that might make a seemingly simple and straightforward - and fair - proposal problematic. I bet policing these waivers and transitions will be a big headache.

There are moving parts that are impacted by this proposal, and i suspect schools will quickly figure out how to game the system in ways unintended by its authors.

Thinking about this some more ... on (2), this kind of waiver has presumably already been granted in the past when players are allowed to leave a program that is on a postseason ban. IIRC, after USC was hit with a ban several years ago, there was a year when they had only about 60 football players on scholarship.
02-01-2018 01:27 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 01:27 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Thinking about this some more ... on (2), this kind of waiver has presumably already been granted in the past when players are allowed to leave a program that is on a postseason ban. IIRC, after USC was hit with a ban several years ago, there was a year when they had only about 60 football players on scholarship.

There always seems to be some flux with scholarships. E.g., the other day our local Baton Rouge paper published LSU's NCAA expense/revenues report for 2016. It showed that LSU used 78 out of 85 football scholarships that year. The sportswriters were surprised by that and nobody seems to know why, everyone seemed to think they always use all 85.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2018 02:01 PM by quo vadis.)
02-01-2018 02:01 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-01-2018 11:53 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The problem I see is---even if a team gets extra scholarships for lost transfers--we are talking about losing not only your coach, your staff---but also established kids with experience in the program. Its going to be very hard to avoid a massive drop off every time a coach leaves.

I'd be sympathetic to the schools and whatever risk they assume were they to actually guarantee scholarships universally. If you did, and the kid decides to take a walk, now you can attach governance that gives some stipulations, because the kid is literally walking away from a full commitment.

As is, yeah, there are some scenarios where the wait time is negated, but most of the other rules already serve the school. And, really, does doing this for the kids, now we have to think about the schools' risks again?!

Get better at recruiting, and get smarter with it, I say. And stop giving scholarships to kids who don't belong at your school. Or, stop with the doublespeak at these schools where one year they want you, and the next they don't because a coach says so...as in, vet your coaches and force them to keep the kids...and if not, simply don't hire the guy. Why is that so hard?
02-01-2018 02:08 PM
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