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Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #61
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
Middle averages 16.7 ft home compared to 18.. on the road in CUSA play. OOC it's 16.6 home and 21.7 on the road/NC and that right there is a very good reason Middle is a road warrior
02-02-2018 12:09 PM
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Volkmar Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 11:45 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  While MT carries a massive deficit in fouls and free throws when our guys go on the road, free throws don't even tell the whole story. Nick King was basically getting assaulted every time he touched the ball last night. And while he led the team with 7 free throws (two of them late to stop the clock) it was like Hack a Shaq out there. I have no idea how he got into double digits. He's tougher I guess than I've been giving him credit for, but the refs inability to be objective in non-neutral court settings has gotten out of hand.

Back to getting more free throws at home it doesn't translate for MT. In our four home conference games we have shot three (3) more free throw TOTAL than our opponents and have been out shot in two of the four. I believe there is probably something to the design of the arena. Murphy Center seats protrudes away from the court. As you get closer to mid court the further away you are from the floor. It's also flatter as the seats go out instead of up. Seating that has a stepper incline also creates better crowd noise. Football depicts this well. Think Michigan vs. Neyland Stadium. Murphy Center was designed to also account for acoustics as a large venue site for musical performers. For arenas where fans sit right on top of you like Murray, Duke and even ODU to an extent I believe referees are more apt to be influenced - maybe even intimidated by the fan presence. If I was a billionaire I would love to tear down Murphy Center and build MT an 8,000 to 10000 seat basketball venue - maybe something similar to what ODU has.

There are teams (like UTSA) with a far greater foul disparity than yours. Whining is unbecoming.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 12:27 PM by Volkmar.)
02-02-2018 12:26 PM
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69topper Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 11:19 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  
(02-02-2018 10:53 AM)Dawgxas Wrote:  
(02-02-2018 08:04 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  We will be lucky to come out of San Antonio with a win Saturday the way we have been playing...Our offensive flow these last 4 or 5 games has not been there...Like good teams we are still finding ways to win (15-0 run to end game vs. Marshall and last night 8-0 run to end game), but I hope we start getting some more flow to the offense....Also UTSA get ready, I am sure they are licking their chops shooting threes against us....Watched UTSA play last night before our game and they have shooters on that team, looking at roster also very young...Come on UTSA fans, you guys should be excited about your team this season and the future!

You don’t get a 30-13 free throw advantage on the road, WKU is going to lose some games away from home.

We out shot UTEP last night in free throws 15-12 and I think we have outshot every team we have played this season minus ODU and Villanova who attempted 1 and 3 more free throws....This is our identity, road, home, Bahamas, Mars etc, this is how we play...How many times does it take for a WKU fan to lecture everyone on this....We take the ball to the rim, as we are not a jump shooting team.....We outscore most teams in the paint and our guards drive to the basket a lot drawing fouls....Our bigs know in order for us to win they have to stay out of foul trouble and are both veterans in avoiding fouls....This is not a hard concept....Yes we will lose some on the road but most likely will be because of turnovers and allowing an opponent to go off from three...

I think u are spreaking in a vacuum. I have made 2-3 posts stating this as have others but they just can't grasp the concept. I suspect they are all republicans. Lol
02-02-2018 12:49 PM
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dahbeed Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
I’m still chuckling over TIBL acting surprised that opposing teams shoot more free throws than Middle even in Middle’s barn of a gym.


This is a simple concept. When you claw the **** out of every player on the other team on defense it really helps in stopping that team from scoring. The downside is you have to live with that team shooting a few more free throws than you. The upside is that eventually the refs just stop blowing the whistle. There are too many fouls to call. Pitino lived off this concept at every stop. The only difference was they clawed the **** out of you for 94 feet. Kermit is more of a half court guy.

It’s Middle’s identity. They are going to grab and tug and foul the living **** out of you the entire game. A lot of teams don’t handle that very well. Kids run away from them. It keeps Middle in every game. Add in enough clutch players on offense and you can win a lot of games. It’s also tourney friendly, when every possession counts.

I’m not dogging Middle on this. I just can’t believe TIBL doesn’t see it.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 12:57 PM by dahbeed.)
02-02-2018 12:56 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #65
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
Western fouls H VS A in conference games

Coleby (AVG)
H 3.2
A 3

JJ (AVG)
H 1.6
A 1.2

Thompson (AVG)
H 1.2
A 1.7

Hollingsworth (AVG)
H 2.2
A 1.7

Bearden (AVG)
H 3
A 2.5

Ohmer (AVG
H 1.6
A 2.2
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 01:05 PM by WKUYG.)
02-02-2018 01:04 PM
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ThreeifbyLightning Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 12:56 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  I’m still chuckling over TIBL acting surprised that opposing teams shoot more free throws than Middle even in Middle’s barn of a gym.


This is a simple concept. When you claw the **** out of every player on the other team on defense it really helps in stopping that team from scoring. The downside is you have to live with that team shooting a few more free throws than you. The upside is that eventually the refs just stop blowing the whistle. There are too many fouls to call. Pitino lived off this concept at every stop. The only difference was they clawed the **** out of you for 94 feet. Kermit is more of a half court guy.

It’s Middle’s identity. They are going to grab and tug and foul the living **** out of you the entire game. A lot of teams don’t handle that very well. Kids run away from them. It keeps Middle in every game. Add in enough clutch players on offense and you can win a lot of games. It’s also tourney friendly, when every possession counts.

I’m not dogging Middle on this. I just can’t believe TIBL doesn’t see it.

Actually, I do see it, and I'm not surprised. However, ODU is made out of the exact same cloth. Everything you described Nick King and Brandon Walters experienced last night on the other end of the court.

And while we can be more physical than other teams one of the tenets of playing with an elite defense to be able to play at a high level while limiting fouls. We struggled with that early in the year. Has gotten better as the year progressed, but my point is MT doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt at home as you guys, La Tech, UAB, etc., get. And that's what I'm trying to gain a better understand on.

To that end, I really don't have a problem with our guys getting called for fouls when they are being aggressive. Frankly and to your point I mostly expect us to be called for more in most games. What irks me is a one of our guys staying vertical while standing completely still and getting called for a foul as the offensive player shoots a fade away. The only contact comes from the offensive guy pushing off to create some separation. I simply don't understand those calls.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 01:30 PM by ThreeifbyLightning.)
02-02-2018 01:07 PM
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ODUCoach Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
Honestly, I'm surprised by MTSU fans complaining about calls last night. The refs let the teams play a physical game and, if anything, MTSU benefited from it. They literally pushed or pulled our big guys while going after every rebound. Our guys spent most of the first half looking to the refs rather than playing through it, which is why we got killed on the boards in the first half.
02-02-2018 01:18 PM
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ThreeifbyLightning Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 12:09 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Middle averages 16.7 ft home compared to 18.. on the road in CUSA play. OOC it's 16.6 home and 21.7 on the road/NC and that right there is a very good reason Middle is a road warrior

Yes, and while we shoot 18 on the road our opponents are shooting 23.

Perhaps what makes this most interesting is a factor that you are not taking into consideration. Because we win a lot of close games and have late leads in those close games a good portion of our free throws actually come as our opponent is intentionally fouling - yet we still have that deficit.

Take last night for example. Although MT outshot ODU 19 to 17, eight of our free throws came in the final 56 seconds of the game. The other 39 minutes of the game was ODU > MT by six FTA's. Six of ODU's 16 personal fouls came in the final minute of the game.
02-02-2018 01:19 PM
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ThreeifbyLightning Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 01:18 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Honestly, I'm surprised by MTSU fans complaining about calls last night. The refs let the teams play a physical game and, if anything, MTSU benefited from it. They literally pushed or pulled our big guys while going after every rebound. Our guys spent most of the first half looking to the refs rather than playing through it, which is why we got killed on the boards in the first half.

First of all. I'm not complaining. I'm having a discussion about the facts related to how fouls are called differently home and away. You should understand that first and foremost.

Second, I agree to an extent they seemed to let both teams play through contact more particularly in the second half. But even with that ODU had a 15 to 10 foul call advantage through the first 39 minutes of the game. MT almost didn't even make it to the double bonus the entire game much less in a single half as ODU did still with 10+ minutes to go in the first half.

Rebounding is a contact activity. Anyone who boxes out and pushes against a box out is playing the game right. Otherwise, a foul would be called on every trip. Defense and boxing out are fundamental to Kermit's philosophy.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 01:32 PM by ThreeifbyLightning.)
02-02-2018 01:25 PM
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dahbeed Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 01:07 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  
(02-02-2018 12:56 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  I’m still chuckling over TIBL acting surprised that opposing teams shoot more free throws than Middle even in Middle’s barn of a gym.


This is a simple concept. When you claw the **** out of every player on the other team on defense it really helps in stopping that team from scoring. The downside is you have to live with that team shooting a few more free throws than you. The upside is that eventually the refs just stop blowing the whistle. There are too many fouls to call. Pitino lived off this concept at every stop. The only difference was they clawed the **** out of you for 94 feet. Kermit is more of a half court guy.

It’s Middle’s identity. They are going to grab and tug and foul the living **** out of you the entire game. A lot of teams don’t handle that very well. Kids run away from them. It keeps Middle in every game. Add in enough clutch players on offense and you can win a lot of games. It’s also tourney friendly, when every possession counts.

I’m not dogging Middle on this. I just can’t believe TIBL doesn’t see it.

Actually, I do see it, and I'm not surprised. However, ODU is made out of the exact same cloth. Everything you described Nick King and Brandon Walters experienced last night on the other end of the court.

And while we can be more physical than other teams one of the tenets of playing with an elite defense to be able to play at a high level while limiting fouls. We struggled with that early in the year. Has gotten better as the year progressed, but my point is MT doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt at home as you guys, La Tech, UAB, etc., get. And that's what I'm trying to gain a better understand on.

To that end, I really don't have a problem with our guys getting called for fouls when they are being aggressive. Frankly and to your point I mostly expect us to be called for more in most games. What irks me is a one of our guys staying vertical while standing completely still and getting called for a foul as the offensive player shoots a fade away. The only contact comes from the offensive guy pushing off to create some separation. I simply don't understand those calls.

Jon Elmore?

He got away with it multiple times against us. That play pisses me off as much as any call. Wtf is the defender supposed to do? Elmore is so used to getting the calls when he doesn’t get one he gets T’d up for crying over it. I’m not hating on him. He does what he has to do. But I don’t understand how our league refs determine who get the Jordan rules and who doesn’t.

And I’m very aware that ODU does every bit as much clawing and tugging and hacking as Middle. Same formula.
02-02-2018 02:14 PM
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ThreeifbyLightning Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 02:14 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  
(02-02-2018 01:07 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  
(02-02-2018 12:56 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  I’m still chuckling over TIBL acting surprised that opposing teams shoot more free throws than Middle even in Middle’s barn of a gym.


This is a simple concept. When you claw the **** out of every player on the other team on defense it really helps in stopping that team from scoring. The downside is you have to live with that team shooting a few more free throws than you. The upside is that eventually the refs just stop blowing the whistle. There are too many fouls to call. Pitino lived off this concept at every stop. The only difference was they clawed the **** out of you for 94 feet. Kermit is more of a half court guy.

It’s Middle’s identity. They are going to grab and tug and foul the living **** out of you the entire game. A lot of teams don’t handle that very well. Kids run away from them. It keeps Middle in every game. Add in enough clutch players on offense and you can win a lot of games. It’s also tourney friendly, when every possession counts.

I’m not dogging Middle on this. I just can’t believe TIBL doesn’t see it.

Actually, I do see it, and I'm not surprised. However, ODU is made out of the exact same cloth. Everything you described Nick King and Brandon Walters experienced last night on the other end of the court.

And while we can be more physical than other teams one of the tenets of playing with an elite defense to be able to play at a high level while limiting fouls. We struggled with that early in the year. Has gotten better as the year progressed, but my point is MT doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt at home as you guys, La Tech, UAB, etc., get. And that's what I'm trying to gain a better understand on.

To that end, I really don't have a problem with our guys getting called for fouls when they are being aggressive. Frankly and to your point I mostly expect us to be called for more in most games. What irks me is a one of our guys staying vertical while standing completely still and getting called for a foul as the offensive player shoots a fade away. The only contact comes from the offensive guy pushing off to create some separation. I simply don't understand those calls.

Jon Elmore?

He got away with it multiple times against us. That play pisses me off as much as any call. Wtf is the defender supposed to do? Elmore is so used to getting the calls when he doesn’t get one he gets T’d up for crying over it. I’m not hating on him. He does what he has to do. But I don’t understand how our league refs determine who get the Jordan rules and who doesn’t.

And I’m very aware that ODU does every bit as much clawing and tugging and hacking as Middle. Same formula.

He's not the only one. Starting to see it more in the post too.
02-02-2018 02:56 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
I think Marshall would be a better team if they'd let their HC handle the refs.

The Marshall guys are putting their hands up on every call and talking to officials, it seems (not just the MT game)
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 02:57 PM by KAjunRaider.)
02-02-2018 02:56 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 02:56 PM)KAjunRaider Wrote:  I think Marshall would be a better team if they'd let their HC handle the refs.

The Marshall guys are putting their hands up on every call and talking to officials, it seems (not just the MT game)

Elmore has a classic reaction every time a call goes against him as if he couldn't be more shocked (very soccer-like). Once I noticed it, it was funny watching him repeat it the rest of the game. It's like he cannot fathom a call going the other way.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 03:33 PM by ODUDrunkard13.)
02-02-2018 03:15 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
I respect his game, but Elmore flops to get fouls more than anyone in this league. It makes it frustrating to watch him play against us.

Don't think either MTSU or ODU really benefited from calls last night. I also think MTSU is more physical and certainly crash the offensive boards a heck of a lot harder. I remember some questionable calls against MTSU, but the charge call on Caver was pretty bad. That one made me upset. Thought Brandan could the raw end on an And1 by King, but I can see why the call was made (though Stith technically went straight up) Thought the game was pretty even outside of us missing shots and Johnson making shots.

On to UAB. Cokley is scary. He has my vote for POY.
02-02-2018 03:46 PM
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WKUFan518 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
Yep Marshall players do talk to refs the entire game, Penava I watched one time against WKU talk to the refs down the entire court while one of guys layed it in....This is true...
02-02-2018 04:06 PM
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kem411ocd Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
I actually think Justin Johnson talks to the refs a little too much after every no call. I just want to see them running back down to cover their man, but no doubt I'd do the same thing these players are doing. Human nature... especially if it works here and there.
02-02-2018 04:14 PM
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KAjunRaider Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 04:06 PM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  Yep Marshall players do talk to refs the entire game, Penava I watched one time against WKU talk to the refs down the entire court while one of guys layed it in....This is true...

I think it hurts them sometimes, because the refs start getting pissed off and/or lack of effort like you mentioned.

It did not hurt them against MT, however. Peneva was a beast and we had no answer (Walters got into foul trouble).
02-02-2018 04:15 PM
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KAjunRaider Offline
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RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 04:14 PM)kem411ocd Wrote:  I actually think Justin Johnson talks to the refs a little too much after every no call. I just want to see them running back down to cover their man, but no doubt I'd do the same thing these players are doing. Human nature... especially if it works here and there.

Yeah, but I think the refs like JJ. I think he does it in a "good" way, putting his arms on the refs shoulder. He is also good at joking around with refs when there is a lapse in action (pre-game, etc).

Very smart player. I wish he was on our team.
02-02-2018 04:17 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #79
RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 04:14 PM)kem411ocd Wrote:  I actually think Justin Johnson talks to the refs a little too much after every no call. I just want to see them running back down to cover their man, but no doubt I'd do the same thing these players are doing. Human nature... especially if it works here and there.

Yeah I noticed this season when JJ misses and goes to the floor he looks at the ref for a second before heading down the court.

To be fair a few players in CUSA do get hit a lot more without the calls. I believe JJ is one of those. But get your ass down the court then point it out to the ref
02-02-2018 04:39 PM
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RE: Feb 1 and 3 basketball games
(02-02-2018 04:39 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Yeah I noticed this season when JJ misses and goes to the floor he looks at the ref for a second before heading down the court.

We've got one of those in Trey Porter.
02-02-2018 04:58 PM
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