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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #41
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 04:48 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

Valpo plays in a HS gym and their success is still entirely on the shoulders of the now-departed Drew family. They’re the worst team in their league this year. I’d switch Duquesne and Fordham for Siena and Iona (or what about Vermont?).

Siena and Hofstra. And Niagara or Canisius for Bonnie. Or Buffalo if they ever gave up on FBS football.

Valpo was a terrible add for the Valley. I can't believe they did that with Oral Roberts, Little Rock, Oakland, UIC, Belmont, Murray State and Milwaukee available, not to mention the Dakota schools.
01-28-2018 06:13 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #42
RE: LaSalle rumor
@ Tom

That's because it was the wrong school trying to be the school. Had it been Georgetown, it may have been more of a hit. Or George Mason with its numbers.
01-28-2018 06:16 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #43
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:13 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 04:48 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

Valpo plays in a HS gym and their success is still entirely on the shoulders of the now-departed Drew family. They’re the worst team in their league this year. I’d switch Duquesne and Fordham for Siena and Iona (or what about Vermont?).

Siena and Hofstra. And Niagara or Canisius for Bonnie. Or Buffalo if they ever gave up on FBS football.

Valpo was a terrible add for the Valley. I can't believe they did that with Oral Roberts, Little Rock, Oakland, UIC, Belmont, Murray State and Milwaukee available, not to mention the Dakota schools.

Well I only see two private schools on your list...remember the MVC has a rather nasty public vs private split. Why do they care? I don't know. But apparently they do. ORU is not getting a bid to the MVC. Belmont? Maybe.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 06:17 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 06:17 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #44
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @ Tom

That's because it was the wrong school trying to be the school. Had it been Georgetown, it may have been more of a hit. Or George Mason with its numbers.

Georgetown? I think even they recognized they didn't need it. What does football provide for them that they don't already have? Most teams don't waste 20-25 million a year on football because they just like the game....they spend because they believe there's some esoteric benefit from doing so. Georgetown already has a top ranking and reputation. It already has a top athletic program. Big time football....gets them nothing. What are they going to get for a likely 300 million dollar unrecouped outlay over 10 years in football?

George Mason? No. Friggin' Maryland has trouble drawing fans many years. And they play in the B1G. You're not going to compete with the NFL team and Maryland in DC. Just not going to happen. It would be a foolish investment. And at what cost? GMU already loses 20+ million a year on athletics WITHOUT football. What would they lose if they added FBS? Much of GMU's undergrad enrollment are not traditional students.

And where would GMU play? CUSA? The Sun Belt? Add the deficit that most AAC football programs run on top of the existing deficit and you'd get a trouble from the state of Virginia really quickly (the Virginia legislature, almost uniquely in the country DOES care about these deficits). And then spend 100 million of money they don't have on a football stadium....or play in Maryland? No, no, no. George Mason is NOT a wealthy A-10 team.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 06:29 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 06:22 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #45
RE: LaSalle rumor
The point is they had way better options than Valpo.
01-28-2018 06:23 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #46
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @ Tom

That's because it was the wrong school trying to be the school. Had it been Georgetown, it may have been more of a hit. Or George Mason with its numbers.

Georgetown? I think even they recognized they didn't need it. What does football provide for them that they don't already have?

George Mason? No. Friggin' Maryland has trouble drawing fans many years. And they play in the B1G. You're not going to compete with the NFL team and Maryland in DC. Just not going to happen. It would be a foolish investment. And at what cost? GMU already loses 20+ million a year on athletics WITHOUT football. What would they lose if they added FBS? Much of GMU's undergrad enrollment are not traditional students.

And where would GMU play? CUSA? The Sun Belt? Add the deficit that most AAC football programs run on top of the existing deficit and you'd get a trouble from the state of Virginia really quickly. And then spend 100 million of money they don't have on a football stadium....or play in Maryland? No, no, no.

Mason could have and they'd have had the benefit of also being a Virginia team instead of just for Washington DC. They'd likely be in C-USA right now had they started a team after the Final Four run.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 06:30 PM by _C2_.)
01-28-2018 06:29 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #47
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @ Tom

That's because it was the wrong school trying to be the school. Had it been Georgetown, it may have been more of a hit. Or George Mason with its numbers.

Georgetown? I think even they recognized they didn't need it. What does football provide for them that they don't already have?

George Mason? No. Friggin' Maryland has trouble drawing fans many years. And they play in the B1G. You're not going to compete with the NFL team and Maryland in DC. Just not going to happen. It would be a foolish investment. And at what cost? GMU already loses 20+ million a year on athletics WITHOUT football. What would they lose if they added FBS? Much of GMU's undergrad enrollment are not traditional students.

And where would GMU play? CUSA? The Sun Belt? Add the deficit that most AAC football programs run on top of the existing deficit and you'd get a trouble from the state of Virginia really quickly. And then spend 100 million of money they don't have on a football stadium....or play in Maryland? No, no, no.

Mason could have and they'd have had the benefit of also be a Virginia team instead of just for Washington DC. They'd likely be in C-USA right now had they started a team after the Final Four run.

I just don't see NoVa folks supporting Mason like that.
01-28-2018 06:32 PM
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LostInSpace Offline
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Post: #48
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 05:52 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 05:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 04:00 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 03:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

I don't see any problem with conferences setting criteria for membership. That if you don't meet x, y and z criteria your membership is under review.

The A10 has explicit criteria for men’s basketball regarding minimum budget size, number of coaches, etc. La Salle complies with those criteria. La Salle’s “arena” is an issue that the A10 office has periodically encouraged La Salle to address while knowing that La Salle doesn’t have the money to do anything other than put a little lipstick on that particular pig.

As for kicking full members out, that’s just not how conferences operate.

Well they should, you have to carry your weight. And besides, conferences and conference members do that, just not technically. They create new conferences and we've seen this with the creation of the MWC and the only partial merger of the SWC with the Big 8.

Sure, some of the A-10 could split off, but that would cost money. Is a conference that looks like this really that much more valuable than the current lineup? SJU, GWU, GMU, UMass, VCU, Richmond, Davidson, Dayton, and SLU? It wouldn't have much dead weight at the bottom, but it wouldn't be earning more money. Remember the A-10 doesn't split money equally. Name a team that would join the A-10 that would actually be able to earn more money for the league? I can't.

This. There is no financial advantage for the current members to split off. There is little gain to be had by dumping two of the doormats. Remove two doormats and the remaining members realize a few hundred thousand dollar gain at best.

Conferences realign when there are significant financial benefits. There are none to be had for the A10 by realigning so its membership isn’t going to change absent a member voluntarily demoting itself.
01-28-2018 06:35 PM
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Post: #49
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @ Tom

That's because it was the wrong school trying to be the school. Had it been Georgetown, it may have been more of a hit. Or George Mason with its numbers.

Georgetown? I think even they recognized they didn't need it. What does football provide for them that they don't already have?

George Mason? No. Friggin' Maryland has trouble drawing fans many years. And they play in the B1G. You're not going to compete with the NFL team and Maryland in DC. Just not going to happen. It would be a foolish investment. And at what cost? GMU already loses 20+ million a year on athletics WITHOUT football. What would they lose if they added FBS? Much of GMU's undergrad enrollment are not traditional students.

And where would GMU play? CUSA? The Sun Belt? Add the deficit that most AAC football programs run on top of the existing deficit and you'd get a trouble from the state of Virginia really quickly. And then spend 100 million of money they don't have on a football stadium....or play in Maryland? No, no, no.

Mason could have and they'd have had the benefit of also be a Virginia team instead of just for Washington DC. They'd likely be in C-USA right now had they started a team after the Final Four run.

I just don't see NoVa folks supporting Mason like that.
Doesn't Mason field a football team as a club sport?
01-28-2018 06:46 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #50
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I just don't see NoVa folks supporting Mason like that.

They're way more likely to be a viable FBS option than 'Town or GW. Maryland would be the school but DC technically isn't in Maryland, even though they're a hop, skip and jump away. Maryland would do way better if it were in or directly near Baltimore.
01-28-2018 06:51 PM
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Post: #51
RE: LaSalle rumor
A-10 endowments over a billion:
Richmond
VCU
St Louis
George Washington

A-10 schools with small endowments:

LaSalle $88 mill
St Bonnie $60 mill
George Mason $73 mill
URI $125 mill

Duquesne has $261 mill
Fordham has $728 mill
01-28-2018 08:30 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #52
RE: LaSalle rumor
That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.
01-28-2018 09:06 PM
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Post: #53
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.

Fordham is a very good academic school in NYC. It’s not that surprising. Richmond, Davidson, Fordham, and GW are all excellent schools that any so-called mid-major conference would want. Fordham isn’t going anywhere. A school like La Salle is a different story.
01-28-2018 09:48 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #54
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.

Not really. Someone leaves some land in NYC to the school and they hang on to it and don't use it for the school. How do you think GW passed Georgetown in endowment? Land, land, land. GW owns a ton of property throughout DC and Northern Virginia that they don't, or can't use for campus purposes. It isn't cash, but its readily convertible to cash.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 09:52 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 09:49 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #55
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 06:51 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 06:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I just don't see NoVa folks supporting Mason like that.

They're way more likely to be a viable FBS option than 'Town or GW. Maryland would be the school but DC technically isn't in Maryland, even though they're a hop, skip and jump away. Maryland would do way better if it were in or directly near Baltimore.

But Maryland isn't near Baltimore. You can see DC from the stadium at College Park. And no, a newbie program in the Belt or CUSA isn't going to be terribly successful IMHO. Remember that GMU doesn't have a huge on campus population and much of the local population is transitory, which is terrible for campus support. And remember, GMU already loses 20 million a year on athletics even without football. They're going to need to get 15-20k right off the bat. Because the state of Virginia is not going to let them add another 14 million to the deficit unless they find some revenue sources to offset it.

From personal experience, the local sports media ignores GW, American, Howard, and Mason. Basically its G'town, Maryland, and Virginia...

Lets look at Maryland. Maryland is located within a 2 hour drive of 10+ million people, has a credible product, has a huge on campus enrollment, is a state flagship, and has 100 or so years of history in football, and good opponents. They draw around 30k or so. George Mason is would draw flies for CUSA or MAC or Belt football in the DMV. So would GW. There's just not enough interest.

I loathe Georgetown, but they could make a go with it. They'd probably need to burn 300 million minimum to make a go of it (and join the AAC, which would take them). And then, maybe they'd get 25k a game or so.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 10:08 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 10:05 PM
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Post: #56
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.

Not only is URI small but about 85% of its enrollment is undergrads. The state’s only med school is at Brown not URI. Their endowment is about what one would expect given the school’s size, mission and the fact that operates in Brown’s shadow.
01-28-2018 10:26 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #57
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 10:26 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.

Not only is URI small but about 85% of its enrollment is undergrads. The state’s only med school is at Brown not URI. Their endowment is about what one would expect given the school’s size, mission and the fact that operates in Brown’s shadow.

Yea, there's a little secret about public school endowments... Schools with medical schools have really outsized ones. That's why I think VCU's true endowment might be overstated as a significant portion of that endowment might be for the medical school.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 10:39 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 10:37 PM
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Post: #58
RE: LaSalle rumor
I know that the OP is probably just the messenger, but entire premise of this thread is so bogus that it’s annoying. Schools don’t willingly drop down to lower tier conferences, particularly under the guise of winning more. All that winning in a lower tier conference does is increase the desire to move up to a better conference, which means that it never makes sense to leave the better conference in the first place. Absolutely no sane university president makes this type of move in today’s conference realignment landscape. Living in the best neighborhood possible is all that matters, so you’d rather have the worst house in a better neighborhood than a mansion in a worse neighborhood. LaSalle isn’t going anywhere unless it’s to the Big East (which obviously isn’t happening). They certainly aren’t going to an inferior league. This is how crappy rumors that get fans unnecessarily into a tizzy get started.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 11:24 PM by Frank the Tank.)
01-28-2018 11:23 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #59
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 09:48 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That 88 million endowment is hard to believe. But not as hard to believe as Rhode Island's tiny endowment. It's a state school. The state isn't large but wow.

Meanwhile Fordham is almost at three quarters of a million. That's surprising.

Fordham is a very good academic school in NYC. It’s not that surprising. Richmond, Davidson, Fordham, and GW are all excellent schools that any so-called mid-major conference would want. Fordham isn’t going anywhere. A school like La Salle is a different story.

But it's still a relative no name. I didn't know anything about it being an academic school until recently. Otherwise, I only knew of it as a total basketball lightweight in the A-10. They should be in the NEC, MAAC or Patriot so they can be competitive.
01-29-2018 02:34 AM
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Post: #60
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 05:52 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 05:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 04:00 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 03:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

I don't see any problem with conferences setting criteria for membership. That if you don't meet x, y and z criteria your membership is under review.

The A10 has explicit criteria for men’s basketball regarding minimum budget size, number of coaches, etc. La Salle complies with those criteria. La Salle’s “arena” is an issue that the A10 office has periodically encouraged La Salle to address while knowing that La Salle doesn’t have the money to do anything other than put a little lipstick on that particular pig.

As for kicking full members out, that’s just not how conferences operate.

Well they should, you have to carry your weight. And besides, conferences and conference members do that, just not technically. They create new conferences and we've seen this with the creation of the MWC and the only partial merger of the SWC with the Big 8.

Sure, some of the A-10 could split off, but that would cost money. Is a conference that looks like this really that much more valuable than the current lineup? SJU, GWU, GMU, UMass, VCU, Richmond, Davidson, Dayton, and SLU? It wouldn't have much dead weight at the bottom, but it wouldn't be earning more money. Remember the A-10 doesn't split money equally. Name a team that would join the A-10 that would actually be able to earn more money for the league? I can't.

College of Charleston might earn more $$’s for the A10, and I think Kennesaw State might be able to do that for the A10 also, given time. Charleston is a well known vacation spot and Kennesaw State is located in suburban Atlanta. Not only is Atlanta known for its football, it’s also known for its basketball too!! Kennesaw State would be a way the A10 could tap into that market.
01-29-2018 02:51 AM
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