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Michigan State basically Penn State
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
It seems there are 2 scandals going on here in which ESPN might having been trying to merge for the shock value. The issues for the football and basketball program aren’t good but I would say every major program has those same problems. The doctor is a different matter and school should get crushed for it. The governor really needs to remove the board for clean slate.
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 01:02 PM by bluesox.)
01-27-2018 12:57 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #62
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
In reality, it wasn't too long ago that the Big 10 use to look down on other conferences, especially the SEC as running shady programs, in contrast to its squeaky-clean operations.

But it sure seems like a long time ago. 07-coffee3
01-27-2018 03:47 PM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 03:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In reality, it wasn't too long ago that the Big 10 use to look down on other conferences, especially the SEC as running shady programs, in contrast to its squeaky-clean operations.

But it sure seems like a long time ago. 07-coffee3

Yes - from Legends & Leaders to cover-ups and sex abuse. Sad!
01-27-2018 04:21 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
I would say Baylor instead of PSU
01-27-2018 07:07 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Supposing HR or GC actually does their job right, they aren't the ones making the firing calls. I get why folks don't blow more whistles (good luck finding work again, or keeping your license, let alone survive a lawsuit if you really bark up the wrong tree), but, this is where HR and GC fail the most in any organization, their duties to uphold compliance. At most of these institutions, it's consult and CYA.
01-27-2018 08:00 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #66
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Would we be more surprised if another school were similarly exposed, or more surprised if this were the last? That's an easy answer for me. Do we think that at places like Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida State and others there isn't a culture that protects its misbehaving athletes at all costs? And throughout our culture (and to be fair in most of the world) star athletes have been led to believe that they can have whatever they want, sexually.
01-28-2018 09:25 AM
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Post: #67
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 12:57 PM)bluesox Wrote:  It seems there are 2 scandals going on here in which ESPN might having been trying to merge for the shock value. The issues for the football and basketball program aren’t good but I would say every major program has those same problems. The doctor is a different matter and school should get crushed for it. The governor really needs to remove the board for clean slate.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion...109873916/

I don't think every school has this scale of problems and the complete lack of enforcement. (emphasis on "every")

"Gov. Rick Snyder is said to be exploring whether he can remove the entire MSU board. That’s a board, by the way, that Friday named its own secretary as acting president.
And the impact of the now nearly 200 pending federal lawsuits filed by Nassar’s victims can’t even be calculated. MSU’s damages could easily top $1 billion."


I'm surprised they really haven't been bigger in the news. Are they simply overshadowed by similar things in Hollywood and DC? Or is the sports media limiting its coverage because they are Big 10?

Baylor was everywhere in the news. Penn St. was because of the Joe Paterno connection.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 10:34 AM by bullet.)
01-28-2018 10:32 AM
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Post: #68
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-28-2018 09:25 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Would we be more surprised if another school were similarly exposed, or more surprised if this were the last? That's an easy answer for me. Do we think that at places like Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida State and others there isn't a culture that protects its misbehaving athletes at all costs? And throughout our culture (and to be fair in most of the world) star athletes have been led to believe that they can have whatever they want, sexually.
Florida St. wasn't the same scale, but Jameis Winston and others were protected. Notre Dame's police department protected the football player who was accused of sexual assault (touching, not rape) until the woman complaining committed suicide making the case moot. On the other hand, a Rice would kick those players out.
01-28-2018 10:36 AM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-28-2018 09:25 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Would we be more surprised if another school were similarly exposed, or more surprised if this were the last? That's an easy answer for me. Do we think that at places like Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida State and others there isn't a culture that protects its misbehaving athletes at all costs? And throughout our culture (and to be fair in most of the world) star athletes have been led to believe that they can have whatever they want, sexually.

That's the same thought process I had.

Not to take anything away from the charges against MSU and aside from the Nassar stuff, but I can't help but think that if one were to do a deep dive on almost any major college athletic department (especially football & basketball) you'd probably come up with very similar results.

College sports is $$$ and it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility to think that staff members might try and down play or even cover up allegations as to not kill the golden goose.
01-28-2018 10:47 AM
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bearcatfan Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
If these types of things are to happen, the NCAA would prefer they happen at non "P5" schools so they could take more action. They have little to no power over the "P5". That needs to change.

Maybe a new governing board is necessary? One that is impartial.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 11:09 AM by bearcatfan.)
01-28-2018 11:09 AM
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RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-28-2018 11:09 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  If these types of things are to happen, the NCAA would prefer they happen at non "P5" schools so they could take more action. They have little to no power over the "P5". That needs to change.

Maybe a new governing board is necessary? One that is impartial.

They really didn't do much to Montana.
01-28-2018 02:16 PM
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Dasville Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
Does MSU continue to nurture a dangerous culture for women?
Lets compare to another University.


https://www.si.com/college-basketball/20...ick-pitino


Was Kathy Redmond Brown's input (who now works for the SEC) important to the NCAA in both cases?
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 06:30 PM by Dasville.)
01-28-2018 06:26 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #73
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-28-2018 10:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:25 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Would we be more surprised if another school were similarly exposed, or more surprised if this were the last? That's an easy answer for me. Do we think that at places like Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida State and others there isn't a culture that protects its misbehaving athletes at all costs? And throughout our culture (and to be fair in most of the world) star athletes have been led to believe that they can have whatever they want, sexually.
Florida St. wasn't the same scale, but Jameis Winston and others were protected. Notre Dame's police department protected the football player who was accused of sexual assault (touching, not rape) until the woman complaining committed suicide making the case moot. On the other hand, a Rice would kick those players out.

I didn't mean to single out those specific schools to suggest I think they have the same issues Michigan State did. They came to my mind because, while I am sure all three have a lot to be proud of academically, that's not the first image that comes into your mind when their name is mentioned. The first image is great football programs. So, if a particular university is known first and foremost for its football program, that's the image the school is likely to want to protect before any other.

Not to be snarky, but I don't know anybody who, when they hear Rice or Tulane mentioned, thinks first of football. That isn't an image those schools are ever likely to feel a need to protect.
01-28-2018 07:06 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-28-2018 07:06 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 10:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:25 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.

Would we be more surprised if another school were similarly exposed, or more surprised if this were the last? That's an easy answer for me. Do we think that at places like Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida State and others there isn't a culture that protects its misbehaving athletes at all costs? And throughout our culture (and to be fair in most of the world) star athletes have been led to believe that they can have whatever they want, sexually.
Florida St. wasn't the same scale, but Jameis Winston and others were protected. Notre Dame's police department protected the football player who was accused of sexual assault (touching, not rape) until the woman complaining committed suicide making the case moot. On the other hand, a Rice would kick those players out.

I didn't mean to single out those specific schools to suggest I think they have the same issues Michigan State did. They came to my mind because, while I am sure all three have a lot to be proud of academically, that's not the first image that comes into your mind when their name is mentioned. The first image is great football programs. So, if a particular university is known first and foremost for its football program, that's the image the school is likely to want to protect before any other.

Not to be snarky, but I don't know anybody who, when they hear Rice or Tulane mentioned, thinks first of football. That isn't an image those schools are ever likely to feel a need to protect.

Swap out sports, student athletes, coaches, and trainers with instructors, grad assistants/post-docs, students, department chairs, deans, and provosts, and is it much different?

What really hits on this MSU thing is the institutional brand protection issue, but also the protection of leadership image. Bad jocks, coaches, and trainers are barely even the tip of any iceberg of a problem. I think you'll find ignorance on any impropriety matter across any major university.

It's impossible to protect something that doesn't have some kind of integrity, though.
01-29-2018 10:18 AM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 07:07 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I would say Baylor instead of PSU

I would say both. Baylor was athletes committing abuse. Penn State was a staff/former staff member. Michigan state is both.
01-29-2018 11:27 AM
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Post: #76
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-25-2018 07:53 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  I think there's a couple things everyone can agree on.

1) What happened was horrific and there's absolutely no excuse than can be made for what happened and why it was never dealt with.
2) The punishment for those involved must be equivalent in severity to the crimes committed.

All that being said, I hope the NCAA doesn't decide to take this opportunity to make up for lost time and punish MSU beyond what is proper. As unfair (ie: lite) as many thought the punishments for PSU, UNC, and Baylor were, let's hope that the NCAA doesn't decide to thump it's chest and go heavier than necessary just to prove something.

I loathe UNC, but let's not put them in the same bucket with PSU, MSU and Baylor
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2018 11:55 AM by Tigeer.)
01-29-2018 11:54 AM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-29-2018 11:54 AM)Tigeer Wrote:  
(01-25-2018 07:53 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  I think there's a couple things everyone can agree on.

1) What happened was horrific and there's absolutely no excuse than can be made for what happened and why it was never dealt with.
2) The punishment for those involved must be equivalent in severity to the crimes committed.

All that being said, I hope the NCAA doesn't decide to take this opportunity to make up for lost time and punish MSU beyond what is proper. As unfair (ie: lite) as many thought the punishments for PSU, UNC, and Baylor were, let's hope that the NCAA doesn't decide to thump it's chest and go heavier than necessary just to prove something.

I loathe UNC, but let's not put them in the same bucket with PSU, MSU and Baylor

True, the severity isn't in the same league, but the fact still remains that it's yet another example of a school who either willfully allowed wrong doing at the highest level or blissfully ignored it because it might damage the reputation of the department and the school.

They are all examples of the muckety-mucks not exercising a level of control necessary to properly deal with the crimes/transgressions of their athletes and athletic department employees.

With that in mind, if ESPN's E:60 report from Sunday about MSU is proven to be true plus what's been learned about Nassar, they need to shut down the entire athletic department and completely clean house.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2018 12:07 PM by BadgerMJ.)
01-29-2018 12:06 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
One big issue I see is that a lot of schools have their own police forces. They are legit police forces with power to arrest, etc. On the surface that seems like a good idea because when you are in a city, or even a rural area, you may not get the services you need/want from the city police or sheriff. The flip side is that these police are employed by the university so they have no independence. A mayor may be able to assert some influence on the police department but the president of a university can terminate the officer.
01-29-2018 05:51 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
15% of the current Big Ten has serious known institutional failures within their Athletic Departments. How many more are waiting? I'll bet there are a few more, for sure.

So I guess I am wondering why the reticence to give the athletic department the death penalty. Let the athletes transfer and give any impacted competitors assistance or waivers to fix the impacted schedules and make MSU an example.
01-29-2018 07:17 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
As this thread has played out over the last couple days, it's become predictable ....

Tribalism at play. They (PSU, Baylor, MSU) bad, my school good.

Never mind that Baylor fans were saying the same thing post-PSU, and MSU fans were saying the same thing post-Baylor.
01-29-2018 09:26 PM
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