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What was the Southland thinking?!
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #21
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
There is NCAA Tournament income to speak of. It's not much but makes a difference. They have won a few games, including a few opening round games, so the little extra revenue could make a difference here and there.
01-23-2018 09:45 AM
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Post: #22
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-22-2018 11:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Honestly—the Southland is a pretty congenial conference. There is no money to speak of being split—so extra teams don’t really make a difference. In fact, more teams within the footprint just make travel easier for the teams and fans. There is no huge downside to having extra teams in FCS.

Exactly. If Arkansas-Little Rock were to call, I suspect the Southland would say yes and not sweat that they were splitting a small pie more ways. They instead would be looking at the fact that men's and women's hoops, and volleyball can drive/fly to Little Rock and play two games on Thursday/Saturday or Friday/Saturday for volleyball within 30 miles of each game.
01-23-2018 10:22 AM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #23
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-22-2018 11:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Honestly—the Southland is a pretty congenial conference. There is no money to speak of being split—so extra teams don’t really make a difference. In fact, more teams within the footprint just make travel easier for the teams and fans. There is no huge downside to having extra teams in FCS.

It matters more for hoops than football - more ways to split lucrative NCAA Tournament units when a team like SFA catches lightning in a bottle. But there's also the trade-off of adding more conference games in the future and the scheduling stability that can create (read: more guaranteed D1 home games, which will be important as power conferences start expanding their own league schedules).

The league added Incarnate Word and Houston Baptist to "get into" Houston and San Antonio, blissfully unaware that those schools don't even register on the radar of most sports fans in those cities. Neither has any business being D1. I know at least one school is deeply unhappy they're in the league at all, but that school doesn't have many options because they need Texas recruiting ties and don't have the money for FBS. I would not be surprised to learn they're not the only school that feels that way about the state of that conference.
01-23-2018 11:21 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #24
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
'11, B-12 was braging about true champion with round robin play.
how CFB playoffs unfolded, B-12 decided CCG decided true champion ['16]

smaller conf have to figure out how to make money off of Cit & Cbi
Southland had 6 schools with winning records.
tourn games are now on TV
treat them like bowl games, jump start next yr

1st 4 wins doesn't get tourn credit
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 11:46 AM by templefootballfan.)
01-23-2018 11:41 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #25
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-23-2018 11:21 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 11:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Honestly—the Southland is a pretty congenial conference. There is no money to speak of being split—so extra teams don’t really make a difference. In fact, more teams within the footprint just make travel easier for the teams and fans. There is no huge downside to having extra teams in FCS.

It matters more for hoops than football - more ways to split lucrative NCAA Tournament units when a team like SFA catches lightning in a bottle. But there's also the trade-off of adding more conference games in the future and the scheduling stability that can create (read: more guaranteed D1 home games, which will be important as power conferences start expanding their own league schedules).

The league added Incarnate Word and Houston Baptist to "get into" Houston and San Antonio, blissfully unaware that those schools don't even register on the radar of most sports fans in those cities. Neither has any business being D1. I know at least one school is deeply unhappy they're in the league at all, but that school doesn't have many options because they need Texas recruiting ties and don't have the money for FBS. I would not be surprised to learn they're not the only school that feels that way about the state of that conference.

Even with basketball money, it doesnt really matter. 1.5 million divided by 9 is $166,000. 1.5 million divided by 12 is $125,000. Revenue splits dont drive realignment decisions at this level. Travel expenses are much more likely to drive decision making.

There is no TV money in FCS--so "getting into Houston" isnt important beyond recruiting. The Southland schools knew HBU and Incarnate Word were not big draws in those cities. No Southland school is a big draw in those cities and probably never will be. FCS is never going to be a big draw. With no money on the table, FCS conferences tend to be more congenial, less cut throat, and are built more like the old school conferences. Its about being close and convenient.

So, for Southland teams, an opportunity to play near Houston HS kids or San Antonio HS players works for them. Its a nice leg up on every other FCS program in the nation and is a nice selling point for the kids parents. Come to Sam Houston St or McNeese and every other year they will play in your parents (and friends) own backyard. Heck--Sam Houston and SFA already play a game against each other in NRG ever year (Battle of the Piney Woods).
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 01:10 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-23-2018 12:56 PM
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Post: #26
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-23-2018 11:41 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  '11, B-12 was braging about true champion with round robin play.
how CFB playoffs unfolded, B-12 decided CCG decided true champion ['16]

smaller conf have to figure out how to make money off of Cit & Cbi
Southland had 6 schools with winning records.
tourn games are now on TV
treat them like bowl games, jump start next yr

1st 4 wins doesn't get tourn credit

Yes they do. 1st 4 wins count as an extra credit.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc...s/6534223/
01-23-2018 01:06 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #27
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-23-2018 11:21 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 11:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Honestly—the Southland is a pretty congenial conference. There is no money to speak of being split—so extra teams don’t really make a difference. In fact, more teams within the footprint just make travel easier for the teams and fans. There is no huge downside to having extra teams in FCS.

It matters more for hoops than football - more ways to split lucrative NCAA Tournament units when a team like SFA catches lightning in a bottle. But there's also the trade-off of adding more conference games in the future and the scheduling stability that can create (read: more guaranteed D1 home games, which will be important as power conferences start expanding their own league schedules).

The league added Incarnate Word and Houston Baptist to "get into" Houston and San Antonio, blissfully unaware that those schools don't even register on the radar of most sports fans in those cities. Neither has any business being D1. I know at least one school is deeply unhappy they're in the league at all, but that school doesn't have many options because they need Texas recruiting ties and don't have the money for FBS. I would not be surprised to learn they're not the only school that feels that way about the state of that conference.

A league like the Southland barely registers anywhere, so in this case that ideology actually works. It's even more logical for recruiting.

It's conferences like C-USA and the WAC-16 that are/were delusional when it comes to that, in some cases adding small private schools or third-tier state schools just because they're in a major market. Same for the AAC. You don't overexpand and often into major markets unless you have to.
01-23-2018 03:29 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #28
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
That said, HBU is indeed borderline D-I. Their basketball gym is one of the few that Sacramento State doesn't blush at by comparison. Incarnate Word's is about as good as Gonzaga's before they built their new one.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 08:32 PM by _C2_.)
01-23-2018 03:42 PM
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LUSportsFan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-23-2018 03:42 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  That said, HBCU is indeed borderline D-I. Their basketball gym is one of the few that Sacramento State doesn't blush at by comparison. Incarnate Word's is about as good as Gonzaga's before they built their new one.

Both UIW and HBU have plans for future facility improvements.

It looks like UIW has some improvements projected in almost all their athletic facilities based on their NCAA Institutional Performance Program self-study dated August, 2016.

2019 - $10,000,000 - Softball and Baseball stadium renovations
2019 - $10,000,000 - Tennis courts, soccer fields, track and field new builds
2020 - Up to $80,000,000 - New multi-purpose arena. The McDermott Convocation Center will used for volleyball.
2022 - No $ estimate - football facility renovation

See page 329 of the linked pdf.

http://www.uiw.edu/ncaaipp/documents/uiw...083116.pdf

Houston Baptist has a 5,000 seat multi-purpose arena as part of its plans to expand the campus to property it owns fronting US 59 (IH 69). Phase I of the project began in 2016. The arena is planned to be part of a future phase.

Quote:A lot has been accomplished and we have exciting things lined up for us in the future. For example, on Hwy. 59 and Fondren we have that 25-acre corner of the campus, which we sometimes refer to as the Campus Edge project. It will be called The Pillars at HBU. It’s a shopping center. It’s a whole development that will draw great attention to the University with a retail section, a parking garage, an office building, a hotel and conference center, and a 5,000-seat arena. Brick is being put up on a beautiful retail section of that development right now. Our architectural look will be extended all the way to the front tier by the freeway. It’s very exciting.

https://www.hbu.edu/news-and-events/2016...-realized/

Both universities already spend more on athletics than at least one FBS university according to the Department of Education''s Equity in Athletics database. (The USAToday Finances database does not include private universities.)

UIW - $17,985,309
HBU - $15,314,235

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 07:31 PM by LUSportsFan.)
01-23-2018 07:20 PM
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TexasTerror Offline
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Post: #30
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
It’s funny that this question came up several years ago and now we are looking at the Southland Conference imploding with the issues stemming from what the heck was the Southland doing?
01-03-2021 10:59 PM
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Post: #31
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
Very good bump. Thx
01-03-2021 11:01 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #32
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
Interesting in retrospect. I’m really curious how this is going to work because it sure looks like a travel budget busting nightmare with pretty limited upside. It’s still a one bid league for basketball and none of the top Southland football programs seemed to have trouble getting slots in the FCS playoff. Given the Covid situation—it seems like a potentially expensive scheme with marginal upside at best. From a fan standpoint, the motivation driving this far flung alignment seems ill defined and nebulous.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2021 03:00 AM by Attackcoog.)
01-04-2021 02:59 AM
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TexasTerror Offline
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Post: #33
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-04-2021 02:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Interesting in retrospect. I’m really curious how this is going to work because it sure looks like a travel budget busting nightmare with pretty limited upside. It’s still a one bid league for basketball and none of the top Southland football programs seemed to have trouble getting slots in the FCS playoff. Given the Covid situation—it seems like a potentially expensive scheme with marginal upside at best. From a fan standpoint, the motivation driving this far flung alignment seems ill defined and nebulous.

I think travel issues are being overstated which I have covered elsewhere.

You can keep travel relatively confined to the 'Texas Division' which is all bus rides for the schools in it. The WAC is likely going to modify its scheduling to really keep the travel limited with there really being two separate divisions in most sports featuring true 'conference play' that comes together for a conference championship.

In football, your flying for one conference football game a year to Utah. Most of our schools were flying for a non-conference game or two in football. In most respects, I can see the non-conference games being bus trips to former Southland foes.

As a SHSU fan...

1) I am excited about new opportunities

2) I think there's schools that look & feel more like ours

3) There's a better road from WAC to other conferences, FBS

4) Significant upside in a sport like men's basketball where you are more likely to get a #12 or #13 seed on an annual basis - better chance for wins, advancement, exposure

5) A league that seems to value access through broadcasting (all the Texas schools have in-house broadcast that can be shown on ESPN3/+; not true of the rest of the SLC)

6) Can still maintain the rivalries with the SLC schools (look for Battle of Chief Caddo between SFA/NWST, plus the Lamar/McNeese rivalries to remain in place in football)

7) SHSU / SFA do not need Houston Baptist for Houston exposure. Arguably, both schools get more exposure in Houston without them and the BOTPW will remain in Houston for the forseeable future. SHSU baseball also is routinely playing in Minute Maid Classic (2021 will be the third time if it holds)

8) The Texas 4 are not recruiting student-athletes OR students in general from Louisiana. Playing more games in Texas and parts of Texas will help.

9) I think we'll know more when the dominoes fall and this is finalized that will add more to the argument

10) It's not the same old, same old
01-04-2021 01:20 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #34
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-04-2021 01:20 PM)TexasTerror Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 02:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Interesting in retrospect. I’m really curious how this is going to work because it sure looks like a travel budget busting nightmare with pretty limited upside. It’s still a one bid league for basketball and none of the top Southland football programs seemed to have trouble getting slots in the FCS playoff. Given the Covid situation—it seems like a potentially expensive scheme with marginal upside at best. From a fan standpoint, the motivation driving this far flung alignment seems ill defined and nebulous.

I think travel issues are being overstated which I have covered elsewhere.

You can keep travel relatively confined to the 'Texas Division' which is all bus rides for the schools in it. The WAC is likely going to modify its scheduling to really keep the travel limited with there really being two separate divisions in most sports featuring true 'conference play' that comes together for a conference championship.

In football, your flying for one conference football game a year to Utah. Most of our schools were flying for a non-conference game or two in football. In most respects, I can see the non-conference games being bus trips to former Southland foes.

As a SHSU fan...

1) I am excited about new opportunities

2) I think there's schools that look & feel more like ours

3) There's a better road from WAC to other conferences, FBS

4) Significant upside in a sport like men's basketball where you are more likely to get a #12 or #13 seed on an annual basis - better chance for wins, advancement, exposure

5) A league that seems to value access through broadcasting (all the Texas schools have in-house broadcast that can be shown on ESPN3/+; not true of the rest of the SLC)

6) Can still maintain the rivalries with the SLC schools (look for Battle of Chief Caddo between SFA/NWST, plus the Lamar/McNeese rivalries to remain in place in football)

7) SHSU / SFA do not need Houston Baptist for Houston exposure. Arguably, both schools get more exposure in Houston without them and the BOTPW will remain in Houston for the forseeable future. SHSU baseball also is routinely playing in Minute Maid Classic (2021 will be the third time if it holds)

8) The Texas 4 are not recruiting student-athletes OR students in general from Louisiana. Playing more games in Texas and parts of Texas will help.

9) I think we'll know more when the dominoes fall and this is finalized that will add more to the argument

10) It's not the same old, same old

Its not football thats going to hit the travel budget. Its all the other sports. Flying volleyball, softball, baseball, womens basketball, mens basketball (etc) to California, Seattle, and Utah adds up. My sense is it just trades one set of problems for another equally troubling set of new issues. I mean---just to get the football league going the WAC expansion is having to cobble together existing member schools in far flung Utah with D2 moveup schools in Texas---is that really a "big" exciting step upwards? That said, I suspect your point about better ability to follow the league due to more consistent quality viewing options (ESPN+/digital networks) is quite valid. We'll just have to see how it goes, and what devices they intend to deploy in an effort to minimize travel expenses.

As for the expansion---I thought it was more about keeping costs down and increasing the pentration in the footprint. I never saw it as giving schools like SFSU and SFA Houston exposure---it woudnt. HBU is invisible here. Heck--for that matter---SHSU is as well. SHSU gets a quick snippet if they are in the playoffs or tournament--but thats about it. None the less---schools like SFA and SHSU are still seen as top recruiting options for local kids with no FBS options or kids who wish to stay home and who's only FBS options are far away or not appealing.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2021 02:50 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-04-2021 02:43 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #35
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
It has to be a move toward the FBS in the not too distant future.
01-04-2021 02:59 PM
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Post: #36
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
Also, here's a crazy thought.

Missouri State has been seen as one desiring to move to FBS. They are not that far from the TX schools. Add them in the short term and the WAC qualifies for an FCS playoff spot immediately.

FBS is not far away
01-04-2021 03:05 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #37
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
No doubt they will form divisions and limit play to within each division.
01-04-2021 03:07 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #38
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-04-2021 03:05 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Also, here's a crazy thought.

Missouri State has been seen as one desiring to move to FBS. They are not that far from the TX schools. Add them in the short term and the WAC qualifies for an FCS playoff spot immediately.

FBS is not far away
Correct me if I am wrong, but with the 4 Southland schools, Southern Utah, and Dixie State, the WAC would already qualify for an FCS playoff spot.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2021 03:19 PM by SMUstang.)
01-04-2021 03:15 PM
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TexasTerror Offline
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Post: #39
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
(01-04-2021 02:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Its not football thats going to hit the travel budget. Its all the other sports. Flying volleyball, softball, baseball, womens basketball, mens basketball (etc) to California, Seattle, and Utah adds up.

Again, I've laid out what I think will happen with those sports in other places (check the WAC BBS for scheduling). An example, volleyball & softball will probably have two flights (a "roundup" on the west side for the eastern schools to play and the league tournament). The basketball schools will play home-and-away in division and then one or two "travel partner" trips to the west + tournament. Baseball is sticky. Not sure what that looks like. I

(01-04-2021 02:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  That said, I suspect your point about better ability to follow the league due to more consistent quality viewing options (ESPN+/digital networks) is quite valid.

I think it's a great point - the WAC has more things together in this regard and it means something. It's absolutely ridiculous that not all Southland basketball games are available on ESPN3, ESPN+.

(01-04-2021 02:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  As for the expansion---I thought it was more about keeping costs down and increasing the pentration in the footprint. I never saw it as giving schools like SFSU and SFA Houston exposure---it woudnt. HBU is invisible here. Heck--for that matter---SHSU is as well. SHSU gets a quick snippet if they are in the playoffs or tournament--but thats about it. None the less---schools like SFA and SHSU are still seen as top recruiting options for local kids with no FBS options or kids who wish to stay home and who's only FBS options are far away or not appealing.

The Southland expansion back then was questionable.

Abilene Christian was a nice Division II moveup and have done the best of the schools to make the move. Good football, doing great in basketball.

Incarnate Word was coming up from Division II and had their problems.

New Orleans was just dealing with the mess of not knowing where their department would be, was given a life preserver by their fellow UL System schools (they were coming from LSU System) and still has their own financial struggles. Nice market and easy to travel to but like the next school, how much proliferation is there? Constant struggle.

Houston Baptist offered football (as a requirement of admission) in the city of Houston which was attractive to some, but we all knew they would not have the facilities or monies to advance.
01-04-2021 03:16 PM
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Post: #40
RE: What was the Southland thinking?!
There are reports that Hawaii could go all sports in the MWC. You get better exposure in the other sports than you get in the Big West.
Long Beach State floated the idea of going to the MWC and football in the past to go MWC for better exposure on tv and all that. MWC gets more money than the Big West.
UC-Riverside looking to drop all sports.
Big West will be hurting without the other three schools. They could pick up and take Seattle, California Baptist as replacement without dipping to D2. That Matt dude was showing that Chicago State, California Baptist and Seattle U. may not be in the WAC much longer. Getting the two outliers on the west coast from the WAC will keep the UC/CSU even numbers.
01-04-2021 03:29 PM
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