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G5 has no regrets
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #61
RE: G5 has no regrets
Also, back to the other post, is a swimming pool necessary for a city? Is a library necessary? Is it (not all cities have one)? Is a biking trail necessary or a convention center needed? Why not just hold events at the high school gym, auditorium or just a big vacant building?

There's plenty of fluff we pay that are convenient and pleasureable but not necessary to operate. I agree the spirit of it gets lost in the mix but we pay for plenty that downright isn't needed.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 08:29 PM by _C2_.)
01-23-2018 08:28 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #62
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-23-2018 08:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Also, back to the other post, is a swimming pool necessary for a city? Is a library necessary? Is it (not all cities have one)? Is a biking trail necessary or a convention center needed? Why not just hold events at the high school gym, auditorium or just a big vacant building?

There's plenty of fluff we pay that are convenient and pleasureable but not necessary to operate. I agree the spirit of it gets lost in the mix but we pay for plenty that downright isn't needed.

Thats why I maintain athletics, as the most visible part of the school, is effectively the primary marketing department for the modern university. Most every product or service you buy has some sort of marketing, advertising, or cost involved in simply allowing the customer to access the good or service. Typically, this is not itemized on your bill or invoice, but these costs are most certainly included in the final price tag.

At 130 universities---FBS football serves as both a major student activity/amenity and as a primary marketing/outreach program for the school. As I said before, where this amenity and marketing department differs from every other business---is alumni and fans who are not the primary buyers of the schools services (education) actually voluntarily subsidize the cost of this dual function department (amenity/marketing). Its a pretty unigue model and its worked quite well for the 130 FBS schools who have chosen to utilize it.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 12:56 AM by Attackcoog.)
01-24-2018 12:53 AM
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Post: #63
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-23-2018 12:17 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 12:35 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 12:21 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 12:07 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I keep hearing about how much of a money drain it is to play in the G5.

I can't come up with an instance of all of the schools who have made the FCS to FBS migration the last decade where there is a regret about making the move.

App State for example much rather conference with the likes of Georgia St, AState and Troy than road conference games in a 7500 seat stadium. Its well worth the geography stretch to play bigger schools.

G5 has no regrets.

I think you mistake my point. It isn't that the decision to play FBS rather than FCS that schools need to seriously look at....its the decision to play football at all. There are FCS teams that have larger deficits than any G5 school, and many FCS programs have higher per student per year subsidies than G5 schools.

The number one determining factor on whether a school is playing football or not is if it has a stadium. If it has the stadium to play in its playing football.

Football is central to student life. Homecoming wouldn't be the same without football ect. Alumni aren't coming back to campus without a football game.

student fees aren't really that large at the mid major FB schools....most are 300-400 per student for sports with football about 1/3rd of that. It doesn't compare to the rapid increases in tuition and special fees for professional majors tacked on.

Its more when a 50 million dollar stadium investment is required to stay in the game when schools decide whether or not to pull the plug. That is more than what the mid major FB schools are willing to chew off for a non-essential expenditure.


We must not have read that memo about football being central to student life 07-coffee3

It is central to student life. Residential campuses need to have football to have any type of a student experience.

These G5 teams are getting 5k-8k students in the door for homecoming and parents weekend. There is an expectation by parents and students alike they'll be attending the home football games. The pageantry with the marching band and cheerleaders is a big part of it.

In places Ruston, LA or a Boone, NC where there is nothing to do sports teams give the community something to do. They'll get disproportionately high attendance for football relative to the college town population because they provide something to do.
01-24-2018 07:49 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #64
RE: G5 has no regrets
Another thing not considered is that for each home football game at a place like Boone, NC it probably adds 5 million to the local economy.

There is the revenue coming in from FB and also the tourism money from the community.

1) FB is not as expensive on the student fee as what some people think.

2) FB at the G5 level brings in enough TV, marketing and game guarantee money to pay for it.

3) Local boost to the economy is per each home game is significant at the 25,000 per game level which is what the average G5 program is putting into the stands for a Saturday home football game.
01-24-2018 07:54 AM
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Lord Stanley Online
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Post: #65
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-23-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Absolutely zero of those makes any reference, direct or indirect, to athletics at all.

Well, OK. But as an ex-college athlete and former athletic department employee who has been in many conversations about college athletics and how they support the vision mission, and values of a university system, how about this: you are wrong.
01-24-2018 08:42 AM
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TrueBlueDrew Online
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Post: #66
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 07:54 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Another thing not considered is that for each home football game at a place like Boone, NC it probably adds 5 million to the local economy.

There is the revenue coming in from FB and also the tourism money from the community.

1) FB is not as expensive on the student fee as what some people think.

2) FB at the G5 level brings in enough TV, marketing and game guarantee money to pay for it.

3) Local boost to the economy is per each home game is significant at the 25,000 per game level which is what the average G5 program is putting into the stands for a Saturday home football game.

Exactly this. It's different for big city G5's and college town G5's. At Georgia Southern and several other college town schools, for a large part of the year, the local economy depends on the success of the football team. When we're winning, the population of Statesboro almost doubles Saturdays. Since our move up, it's only had a larger positive effect.
01-24-2018 08:49 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #67
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-23-2018 08:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 07:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:23 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Even without it, there's plenty of other non-athletic entities covered in a typical college's cost of attendance that not everyone uses. There are things in this city that I never use that taxpayers have to pay for. I do go to the library but many don't and don't need to in the internet age where you can order pretty much anything or in the era of bookstores and even bigger libraries at places like universities.

It comes with the territory. There's plenty of things none of us use that we pay for. Why should you pay the school district tax if you have no kids? Why pay for public parks department if you don't ever go to the park?

You keep missing the point about 'mission'. All of those things are a valid part of the missions of those entities. Football at a university isn't, so the "well, we help pay for X even though we don't use it" doesn't wash.

And you keep missing the point about what students want. They like amenities colleges have to offer, including fitness centers, housing and (high level) intercollegiate athletics. Some go to certain schools very much for it and if you didn't know that going in, it's on you. If there was enough resistance to it, enough students would vote things down.

I haven't missed that point, I've explained why the students who want football should have it, at their own expense not anyone else's. If football doesn't have enough support to exist that way, then that means it doesn't have enough support to be viable on that campus.

And I've also explained the problems with voting. Heck, in the example given earlier this thread, the student vote was 'purely advisory', admins could still impose the proposed fee if they wanted. That's just for starters.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 09:08 AM by quo vadis.)
01-24-2018 09:07 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #68
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 08:42 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 07:26 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Absolutely zero of those makes any reference, direct or indirect, to athletics at all.

Well, OK. But as an ex-college athlete and former athletic department employee who has been in many conversations about college athletics and how they support the vision mission, and values of a university system, how about this: you are wrong.

How about that? You're wrong. Athletics and physical education does have a valid place in the mission of an educational institution, but as part of the curriculum and intramural activity that all students can participate in. That helps all students develop their mind and bodies. Having them pay extra money on top of their academic fees to support sending a tiny minority of students to play other universities, doesn't.

Intercollegiate athletics isn't contrary to the valid mission of a university, if it was it shouldn't exist at all. But it is tangential enough so that it should be self-sustaining.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 09:18 AM by quo vadis.)
01-24-2018 09:10 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #69
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 09:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 08:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 07:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:23 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Even without it, there's plenty of other non-athletic entities covered in a typical college's cost of attendance that not everyone uses. There are things in this city that I never use that taxpayers have to pay for. I do go to the library but many don't and don't need to in the internet age where you can order pretty much anything or in the era of bookstores and even bigger libraries at places like universities.

It comes with the territory. There's plenty of things none of us use that we pay for. Why should you pay the school district tax if you have no kids? Why pay for public parks department if you don't ever go to the park?

You keep missing the point about 'mission'. All of those things are a valid part of the missions of those entities. Football at a university isn't, so the "well, we help pay for X even though we don't use it" doesn't wash.

And you keep missing the point about what students want. They like amenities colleges have to offer, including fitness centers, housing and (high level) intercollegiate athletics. Some go to certain schools very much for it and if you didn't know that going in, it's on you. If there was enough resistance to it, enough students would vote things down.

I haven't missed that point, I've explained why the students who want football should have it, at their own expense not anyone else's. If football doesn't have enough support to exist that way, then that means it doesn't have enough support to be viable on that campus.

And I've also explained the problems with voting. Heck, in the example given earlier this thread, the student vote was 'purely advisory', admins could still impose the proposed fee if they wanted. That's just for starters.

Again—higher education is available in all shapes and sizes. There is no need nor is there any requirement for one to pay for football just to go to school. It’s simple—don’t attend a school with football. That said, football and athletics come nowhere near covering its total cost at the high school level and we are ALL FORCED to pay for athletics at the high school and Middle school level. Frankly, there is nothing unique about a school athletics subsidy at the college level.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 02:48 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-24-2018 10:48 AM
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #70
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 09:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 08:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 07:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:23 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Even without it, there's plenty of other non-athletic entities covered in a typical college's cost of attendance that not everyone uses. There are things in this city that I never use that taxpayers have to pay for. I do go to the library but many don't and don't need to in the internet age where you can order pretty much anything or in the era of bookstores and even bigger libraries at places like universities.

It comes with the territory. There's plenty of things none of us use that we pay for. Why should you pay the school district tax if you have no kids? Why pay for public parks department if you don't ever go to the park?

You keep missing the point about 'mission'. All of those things are a valid part of the missions of those entities. Football at a university isn't, so the "well, we help pay for X even though we don't use it" doesn't wash.

And you keep missing the point about what students want. They like amenities colleges have to offer, including fitness centers, housing and (high level) intercollegiate athletics. Some go to certain schools very much for it and if you didn't know that going in, it's on you. If there was enough resistance to it, enough students would vote things down.

I haven't missed that point, I've explained why the students who want football should have it, at their own expense not anyone else's. If football doesn't have enough support to exist that way, then that means it doesn't have enough support to be viable on that campus.

And I've also explained the problems with voting. Heck, in the example given earlier this thread, the student vote was 'purely advisory', admins could still impose the proposed fee if they wanted. That's just for starters.

I never used certain amenities when in college, should I have had to pay for them? It's a trust share. Again, there are plenty of fluff amenities in many cities people don't use, should they pay for them?
01-24-2018 12:24 PM
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CliftonAve Online
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Post: #71
RE: G5 has no regrets
A simple question-- but are public schools that don't have FBS football rolling in the dough? Are they beating out other schools in their states and region for students? I know here in Ohio that Wright State and Youngstown State have athletic departments in the hole and are not able to attract the type of students the FBS schools in the state do.
01-24-2018 12:40 PM
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Post: #72
RE: G5 has no regrets
No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 02:19 PM by arkstfan.)
01-24-2018 02:19 PM
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Post: #73
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

And I'll add that even if you don't use those amenities in your city, you still benefit from having them as they help to raise the standard of living in your community and your property value.

The same way, students who don't care about sports and never attend sporting events still benefit from going to a D1-A school as having that national brand and reputation that sports provide helps to increase the value of their degree.
01-24-2018 02:51 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #74
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

Honestly, the biggest rip off in college isnt athletic fees. Its books and course required computer web based modules. These required text books are often well over $100 each--which is ridiculous when I can get a printed John Grisham book for $6 where the author received millions to write it. The computer modules routinely cost $100 or more dollars and replace old school "workbooks" that cost $10 at most. There is zero reasons that books cost that much and if the computer modules cant get cost competitive with a simple workbooks--then they should not be required in curriculums. I find it odd that nobody ever questions an item that routinely adds another $500-1000 to the cost of each semester.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 06:20 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-24-2018 02:53 PM
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Post: #75
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 12:40 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  A simple question-- but are public schools that don't have FBS football rolling in the dough? Are they beating out other schools in their states and region for students? I know here in Ohio that Wright State and Youngstown State have athletic departments in the hole and are not able to attract the type of students the FBS schools in the state do.

Wright St. and Youngstown St. have never been at the same academic level of the MAC schools and Cincinnati (with the possible exception of Akron).
01-24-2018 03:24 PM
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arkstfan Online
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Post: #76
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 02:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

Honestly, the biggest rip off in college isnt athletic fees. Its books and course required computer web based modules. These required text books are often well over $100 each--which is ridiculous when a I can get a printed John Grisham book for $6 where the author received millions write it. The computer modules routinely cost $100 or more dollars and replace old school "workbooks" that cost $10 at most. There is zero reasons that books cost that much and if the computer modules cant get cost competitive with a simple workbooks--then they should not be required in curriculums. I find it odd that nobody ever questions an item that routinely adds another $500-1000 to the cost of each semester.

Son bought a textbook (used) from Amazon for $17. Had to buy a computer access code for an Accounting class for $125.
01-24-2018 04:02 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #77
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 02:51 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

And I'll add that even if you don't use those amenities in your city, you still benefit from having them as they help to raise the standard of living in your community and your property value.

The same way, students who don't care about sports and never attend sporting events still benefit from going to a D1-A school as having that national brand and reputation that sports provide helps to increase the value of their degree.

There's zero evidence that, e.g., Appalachian State's degrees are more valuable because they are FBS now than when they were FCS.

But it's a hard truth that student fees and transfers have gone from $6m to $20m. That's $14m in cold cash lost every year.
01-24-2018 05:06 PM
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Post: #78
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 07:54 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Another thing not considered is that for each home football game at a place like Boone, NC it probably adds 5 million to the local economy.

There is the revenue coming in from FB and also the tourism money from the community.

1) FB is not as expensive on the student fee as what some people think.

2) FB at the G5 level brings in enough TV, marketing and game guarantee money to pay for it.

3) Local boost to the economy is per each home game is significant at the 25,000 per game level which is what the average G5 program is putting into the stands for a Saturday home football game.

Of course at App, attendance is down since going to FBS, some of that a product of non-Saturday games that really depress out-of-town fans.
01-24-2018 05:14 PM
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Post: #79
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 05:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:51 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

And I'll add that even if you don't use those amenities in your city, you still benefit from having them as they help to raise the standard of living in your community and your property value.

The same way, students who don't care about sports and never attend sporting events still benefit from going to a D1-A school as having that national brand and reputation that sports provide helps to increase the value of their degree.

There's zero evidence that, e.g., Appalachian State's degrees are more valuable because they are FBS now than when they were FCS.

But it's a hard truth that student fees and transfers have gone from $6m to $20m. That's $14m in cold cash lost every year.

You consider it lost and I consider it invested. That's the disconnect.

And App State has only been in the FCS for 3 years. Are you going to say that a degree from a place like Boise State isn't more valuable now that it was in the 90's?

If an alum from Boise State moved to Texas and said "hire me, I went to Boise State" don't you think the reaction would be a little different now compared to back then? And that can almost 100% be contributed to the exposure their school has received through athletics.
01-24-2018 05:16 PM
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Post: #80
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-24-2018 05:16 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 05:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:51 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-24-2018 02:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  No one avails themselves of all the amenities their community offers yet they pay for them via taxes.

While I get heartburn over unreasonable fees and over students being expected to invest more than the program generates from other sources, opting out makes no sense.

If you don't have kids chances are you never avail yourself the baseball, football, basketball, soccer, softball facilities that a city provides, nor the fitness center nor the pools. Maybe you don't use the library or the trails or the parks. Maybe you don't attend events at the local arena.

Your disinterest should not permit you to opt-out. Now you are free to vote for and campaign for candidates who will reduce or eliminate those expenditures but you don't get to reduce your tax bill for the stuff you don't use.

And I'll add that even if you don't use those amenities in your city, you still benefit from having them as they help to raise the standard of living in your community and your property value.

The same way, students who don't care about sports and never attend sporting events still benefit from going to a D1-A school as having that national brand and reputation that sports provide helps to increase the value of their degree.

There's zero evidence that, e.g., Appalachian State's degrees are more valuable because they are FBS now than when they were FCS.

But it's a hard truth that student fees and transfers have gone from $6m to $20m. That's $14m in cold cash lost every year.

You consider it lost and I consider it invested. That's the disconnect.

And App State has only been in the FCS for 3 years. Are you going to say that a degree from a place like Boise State isn't more valuable now that it was in the 90's?

If an alum from Boise State moved to Texas and said "hire me, I went to Boise State" don't you think the reaction would be a little different now compared to back then? And that can almost 100% be contributed to the exposure their school has received through athletics.

How many schools have done what Boise has?

The answer is one.
01-24-2018 05:44 PM
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