The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(01-24-2018 07:01 PM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  

(01-24-2018 04:42 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  It's hard to compare players who play completely different positions, and I know next to nothing about players before the Huggins era. But considering the Huggins and Cronin eras, I would put Gary Clark either 3rd or 4th among the 4's and 5's, either just ahead of or just behind Maxiell. Martin and Fortson are in their own class, with Clark and Maxiell heading up the 2nd tier, along with Hicks and Gates. The tough ones to rank are guys like Corie Blount and Dontonio Wingfield, who weren't here long but did go to the NBA. Blount in particular had a really long NBA career. Hell, even Art Long had a stint in the NBA, even if he didn't exactly make us proud to be Bearcats fans...

I thought Wingfield was better than Maxiell here... they played different, but as a freshman, DW averaged more Pts, Reb, Stls and Assists than Maxiell ever did in a season. Maxiell played his role well and worked his butt off tho, Wingfield wasn't good enough to be a star in the NBA, but his game was suited to be a teams alpha. Also really depends if you're comparing peak season or career. Each player at their best I go Martin, Fortson, Clark, Wingfield, Blount, Maxiell, Brannen, Gates

Wingfield was the most talented freshman UC had in the modern era. One year simply isn't enough to put him above some of those other guys.

Gary just became only the 5th player in UC history to have 1000 points and 1000 rebounds last night, along with Robertson, Hogue, Twyman, and Miller.

He will probably end up #3 all-time in rebounds and somewhere in the #14-16 range for points if we make a decent run in both tourneys.

Gary's updated career boards numbers:

1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Gary Clark 1,002
6. Dwight Jones 983
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869

Gary's updated rank in career points (3 year players in bold):

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Gary Clark 1,259
28. Jim Ard 1,256
29. Steve Collier 1,252
30. Eric Hicks 1,231
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097 (Two Years)
40. Ralph Davis 1,093

Oscar with nearly 3000 points in 3 seasons. Fortson with nearly 2000 points in 3 seasons.

(01-25-2018 10:44 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Gary's updated career boards numbers:

1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Gary Clark 1,002
6. Dwight Jones 983
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869

Gary's updated rank in career points (3 year players in bold):

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Gary Clark 1,259
28. Jim Ard 1,256
29. Steve Collier 1,252
30. Eric Hicks 1,231
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097 (Two Years)
40. Ralph Davis 1,093

At he clip he has been going of late, Gary will surpass Robert Miller in rebounding and Thom Brennaman's step-dad (Derrek Dickey) in scoring in just 5-6 games.

I remember Huggins one time talking about recruiting and asking kids what they wanted to accomplish. When a kid said he wanted to be the best player in school history he told them they needed to go somewhere else.

(01-25-2018 10:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I thought Wingfield was better than Maxiell here... they played different, but as a freshman, DW averaged more Pts, Reb, Stls and Assists than Maxiell ever did in a season. Maxiell played his role well and worked his butt off tho, Wingfield wasn't good enough to be a star in the NBA, but his game was suited to be a teams alpha. Also really depends if you're comparing peak season or career. Each player at their best I go Martin, Fortson, Clark, Wingfield, Blount, Maxiell, Brannen, Gates

Wingfield was the most talented freshman UC had in the modern era. One year simply isn't enough to put him above some of those other guys.
[/quote]

If we made an all-star team of ex UC players based on each player at their best, and you took Maxiell and I took Wingfield, I would win.

Congrats to Clark joining an elite club (1,000 pts - 1,000 rbs)

Robertson...88g....2973pts...1338rb

Twyman...90g...1598pts...1242rb

Hogue...91g...1391pts...1088rb

Miller...116g...1498pts...1060rb

Clark...123g...1259pts...1002rb

To be fair we need to consider the numbers in PPG and RPG.

Today players can play 4 years and the number of games is about 20% more.

(01-25-2018 10:47 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Oscar with nearly 3000 points in 3 seasons. Fortson with nearly 2000 points in 3 seasons.

Imagine Oscar's total if 3 point field goals were allowed at that time?

Best case scenario IMHO...Pistons and Spurs are my two favorite NBA teams...used to want to see Clark model his game after Paul Millsap...recently this year I have been looking a different way.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla...ark-2.html

Quote:What he brings

When you watch Clark play you see a power forward with skill, length, rebounding and shot blocking abilities. He displays versatility on the offensive end where he can shoot the ball from 15 feet and beyond and he does it with comfort and confidence. When facing the basket he can put the ball on the floor from the high post and straight line drive a defender. Clark produces best when rebounding and blocking shots. He is a good two-handed rebounder who has the length and knack to grab double-figure boards in a game. Although his ball handling needs polish when he grabs a defensive board he will advance the ball on the break and score or make the simple pass. One of the better shot blockers for his size (6-foot-7) due to his enormous wingspan, Clark will deflect passes or alter the shots he does not block

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla...ard-1.html

Quote:Kawhi Leonard's stock is based primarily on his physical attributes, defensive abilities, and upside, so it's not a huge surprise that he doesn't fare very well from a purely statistical standpoint. His profile strongly indicates that he's destined to play a complimentary role in the NBA, at least in his first few seasons. Leonard's 0.889 points per possession overall ranks third worst of the 17 wings we evaluated, and his adjusted field goal percentage of 46.3% ranks dead last, a strong illustration of his scoring woes. On the positive side, Leonard's overall turnover percentage of 11.8% ranks third best in the class, and he could actually even stand to improve at the next level when he's projected to have even less shot creation responsibility initially. Another interesting note looking at Leonard's possessions is that only 13% of his possessions came in transition, which ranks him 13th overall in the group.

Leonard played on one of the slowest-paced teams in college basketball, likely due to his team's mediocre guard play. For a player with his physical tools, this is less than ideal, and he could certainly see a spike in that regard at the next level, which should help his overall efficiency. In the half-court, Leonard ranks seventh of all wings in the percentage of his possessions coming from isolations, at 15%. His .721 PPP on these possessions ranks 15th, indicating that he struggled to create shots effectively for himself last season. He was unable to get to the free throw line consistently (11.3%, 12th) for many of these same reasons, and did not finish around the basket at a high rate, where his 1.069 PPS ranked 13th.

If Leonard ever does develop into a more reliable isolation threat, improving his left hand should be among his top priorities, as despite seeing a near equal breakdown of drives in both directions (37 possessions going right, 35 going left), Leonard's efficiency going right (0.865 PPP) more than doubled his efficiency going left (0.429 PPP). Leonard is not only an average ball-handler, but he also struggles to make shots consistently from beyond the arc. His 0.743 points per shots on jumpers ranks 16th of 17 in the class, where he shot an abysmal 31% from the field. His struggles extend both to his catch and shoot jumpers (32%) and pull-ups (28%). While these numbers point out some glaring weaknesses, it's important to remember the different role Leonard is projected to play in the pros, and how most of the strengths in his scouting report (such as defense and rebounding) come in areas largely unquantifiable by statistics of this nature (at least reliably). -

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2011-Wing-Crop-3767/

Quote:Kawhi Leonard didn't stand out in any particular measurement, mustering a 32.5 inch vertical leap and 3 reps on the bench. His numbers were pretty average across the board, which seems to be the trend amongst the top players in this class of prospects. As Chad Ford wisely speculated on twitter earlier today, this could very well have to do with the fact that the top prospects did not have the benefit of going through an extensive warm-up prior.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kawhi-Leonard-5821

(01-25-2018 10:44 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Gary's updated career boards numbers:

1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Gary Clark 1,002
6. Dwight Jones 983
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869

Gary's updated rank in career points (3 year players in bold):

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Gary Clark 1,259
28. Jim Ard 1,256
29. Steve Collier 1,252
30. Eric Hicks 1,231
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097 (Two Years)
40. Ralph Davis 1,093

What is Evans up to?

(01-25-2018 02:21 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 10:44 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Gary's updated career boards numbers:

1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Gary Clark 1,002
6. Dwight Jones 983
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869

Gary's updated rank in career points (3 year players in bold):

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Gary Clark 1,259
28. Jim Ard 1,256
29. Steve Collier 1,252
30. Eric Hicks 1,231
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097 (Two Years)
40. Ralph Davis 1,093

What is Evans up to?

He has 1039 points. He's 3-4 games from entering the top 40.

I've always seen a lot of Draymond Green in Clark as far as forwards who do a little bit of everything. Looking at his college numbers and size they're pretty similar there as well. I have no idea how their athleticism compares, I suspect Green is more athletic since he was a high second round pick and Clark isn't a draft prospect. But if Green is a perennial all star Gary could be a less athletic version maybe a starter or a role player off the bench.

(01-25-2018 03:00 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  I've always seen a lot of Draymond Green in Clark as far as forwards who do a little bit of everything. Looking at his college numbers and size they're pretty similar there as well. I have no idea how their athleticism compares, I suspect Green is more athletic since he was a high second round pick and Clark isn't a draft prospect. But if Green is a perennial all star Gary could be a less athletic version maybe a starter or a role player off the bench.

Green is like best case scenario for the kind of guy you would love to see Clark be in the NBA. There is nobody like Green in the league, but he is so versatile and Golden State uses him so well. I do think if Clark makes the league he's going to have to be able to guard centers and be an athletic big off the bench.

would anyone say that he's finally starting to progress?

How did Oscar get that many rebounds in only 3 years?

(01-25-2018 03:03 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:00 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  I've always seen a lot of Draymond Green in Clark as far as forwards who do a little bit of everything. Looking at his college numbers and size they're pretty similar there as well. I have no idea how their athleticism compares, I suspect Green is more athletic since he was a high second round pick and Clark isn't a draft prospect. But if Green is a perennial all star Gary could be a less athletic version maybe a starter or a role player off the bench.

Green is like best case scenario for the kind of guy you would love to see Clark be in the NBA. There is nobody like Green in the league, but he is so versatile and Golden State uses him so well. I do think if Clark makes the league he's going to have to be able to guard centers and be an athletic big off the bench.

I don’t know. I always felt this was Jason Maxiel’s problem with the pistons. They used him at Center blocking out where he never really had the opportunity to rebound and score. Rarely did they ever pass the ball to him in the lane. Just too short. I always felt he would have had a better career if used as a power forward which would have better allowed him to use his overall skills.

(01-25-2018 02:26 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 02:21 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What is Evans up to?

He has 1039 points. He's 3-4 games from entering the top 40.

Evans just passed Oscar's senior year total. It's absolutely incredible that UC old timers got to watch the best college player ever to that point (and still one of the best few) and THEN two straight national titles.

Clark's shot was broke when he was a freshman, and now he's splashing 3s and shooting about 80% from the line. You could see his potential early, but he's really improved each year in just about every way. He's also a warrior--remember him playing on one leg in the tournament a few years back--and by all accounts a great kid.

Gary Clark: no doubt outstanding.

Another question might be: "How good were Jelly Jones, Robert Miller and Pat Cummings?"