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Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
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doss2 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-19-2018 01:45 PM)cpawstoney Wrote:  
(01-19-2018 01:34 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-19-2018 01:24 PM)Lush Wrote:  i call lance, mini triple double. stuffs stat sheets on a nightly bases. never shoulda left indy.

i'm surprised danny and kenyon aren't higher on the rebounding list. i know danny lost a year and kenyon was a bit limited his freshman year, but still

If Danny would have stayed for his senior season he would have finished with ~1200 (assuming he got his 9 rebound a game average from the two years prior). Its pretty spectacular when you considered he shared the boards with Art Long who was grabbing 7.5-8 boards a game himself those years.

Kenyon's numbers would have been better had he been able to play more his freshman year. He only averaged his 10 minutes a game that year.

Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda ... Oscar and Paul Hogue only played for three years too.

Same for Twyman - 3 years. Need to use PPG, RPG

Teams now play 6 - 10 more games a year,
 
01-19-2018 02:17 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-19-2018 02:17 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Same for Twyman - 3 years. Need to use PPG, RPG

Teams now play 6 - 10 more games a year,

That's not exactly apples to apples either. I saw a stat when Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double last year that there are far fewer possessions there are in a basketball game now. To go full apples to apples you need to go per possession.
 
01-19-2018 03:07 PM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-19-2018 03:07 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(01-19-2018 02:17 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Same for Twyman - 3 years. Need to use PPG, RPG

Teams now play 6 - 10 more games a year,

That's not exactly apples to apples either. I saw a stat when Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double last year that there are far fewer possessions there are in a basketball game now. To go full apples to apples you need to go per possession.

The NBA also changed the definition of an assist. Using today's definition, Oscar would have far, far more assists than he was credited with while an NBA player.
 
01-19-2018 03:09 PM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
61-62 had the fastest NBA game ever and led to crazy stats like Oscars triple double and Wilts 50-25. I realize this is the NBA but it seems likely that college would trend in the same direction.
 
01-19-2018 03:14 PM
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Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
 
01-19-2018 03:21 PM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-18-2018 12:45 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 06:34 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Looking at the rebounding record, Gary will wind up 3rd all time with ~1100 at the end of the season (the top two guys have 1250-1350).

Scoring wise Gary will finish 17-18th if he averages 10-11 points a game the rest of the season.

Good number projections. If these play out this way, he is in some select company. In particular, his rebounding has seemingly happened under the radar for some reason. He's already grabbed more career boards than Gates, Maxiell, Hicks, Fortson and Martin:

1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Dwight Jones 983
6. Gary Clark 978
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869

For comparison sake, here is where Gary currently ranks in career points (3 year players in bold):

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Jim Ard 1,256
28. Steve Collier 1,252
29. Eric Hicks 1,231
30. Gary Clark 1,228
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097 (Two Years)
40. Ralph Davis 1,093
 
01-19-2018 06:42 PM
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CliftonAve Online
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Post: #27
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
As an update:

Career Points

1. Oscar Robertson 2,973
2. Sean Kilpatrick 2,145
3. Steve Logan 1,985
4. Deonta Vaughn 1,885
5. Danny Fortson 1,881
6. Roger McCLendon 1,789
7. Pat Cummings 1,762
8. Ron Bonham 1,666
9. Louis Banks 1,644
10. Jack Twyman 1,598
11. Lloyd Batts 1,585
12. Darnell Burton 1,584
13. Jason Maxiell 1,566
14. Robert Miller 1,498
15. Yancy Gates 1,485
16. Dwight Jones 1,451
17. Paul Hogue 1,391
18. Bobby Austin 1,385
19. Derrek Dickey 1,328
20. Levertis Robinson 1,320
21. Leonard Stokes 1,318
22. Troy Caupain 1,317
22. Cashmere Wright 1,317
24. Damon Flint 1,316
25. Dion Dixon 1,281
26. Kenyon Martin 1,279
27. Jim Ard 1,256
28. Steve Collier 1,252
29. Gary Clark 1,242
30. Eric Hicks 1,231
31. LaZelle Durden 1,219
32. Rick Roberson 1,196
33. Tom Thancker 1,152
34. Jim Holstein 1,146
35. George Wilson 1,124
36. Bill Lammert 1,119
36. Melvin Levett 1,119
38. Dick Dallmer 1,098
39. Herb Jones 1,097
40. Ralph Davis 1,093

Rebounds
1. Oscar Robertson 1,338
2. Jack Twyman 1,242
3. Paul Hogue 1,088
4. Robert Miller 1,060
5. Gary Clark 992
6. Dwight Jones 983
7. Rick Roberson 945
8. Jim Ard 941
9. Connie Dierking 929
10. Yancy Gates 916
11. Jason Maxiell 908
12. George Wilson 888
12. Eric Hicks 888
14. Danny Fortson 873
15. Kenyon Martin 869
 
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 10:28 AM by CliftonAve.)
01-23-2018 10:27 AM
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Post: #28
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
Remarkable looking at a list of top Bearcat scorers ever and 1093 is still top 40 all time.

For Reference on this years team at the D1 level:

Cane Broome - 1303 points
Gary Clark - 1242 points
Kyle Washington - 1077 points
Jacob Evans - 1029 points
Jarron Cumberland - 497 points

It is more likely than not that we have 5 guys that finish their Division 1 careers with over 1100 points each. 96-97 the last time we had that on one team?
 
01-23-2018 10:47 AM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
So I can't intelligently speak to pre Huggins era Bearcats but I'll give you my list of MOST IMPORTANT Bearcats from Huggins era and beyond:

1. Kenyon Martin- Consensus National Player of the year on best Bearcat team since the 60s. One of the best teams ever to not win the title (thanks to the injury). Incredible defensive player and rebounder throughout his time her. Solid on offense his sophomore/junior years but made an amazing jump as a senior. Jersey Retired.
2. Steve Logan- Incredible 4 years where he was a key player every season. Played a ton as a freshman and sophomore. Basically forced Huggins to turn him into the star over satterfield as a junior and won Great Midwest player of the year as a result. Lead a bunch of role players to an amazing season as a senior as a first team all American. UC won the regular season and conference USA tournament. They were a 1 seed. They had a crazy number of top 50/100 wins.
3. Danny Fortson- Easily the best Freshman-Junior Bearcat of the Huggins era. So dominant all three seasons that you could reasonably have him 1 or 2 on this list. Forston was a beat. I'll take 4 years of the other guys (especially because of the dominant team seasons they produced as seniors), but Fortson lead UC to its last elite eight and was an unbelievable bearcat.
4. Sean Kilpatrick- Best player of the Mick Cronin era. Second all time in points. Amazing scorer, that developed into a really good college defender. Incredibly clutch late in games.
5. Herb Jones- Huggins always described him as a program changer...the guy who really got the ball rolling. Herb was incredible in his two seasons with UC (the second culminating in a final four). 16 points ppg as a junior, 18 ppg as a senior. He also effected so many other parts of the game (reminds me of Gary Clark in that way, but was a more dominant offensive player).
6. Nick Van Exel- 1 final four, 1 elite eight, clutch player...ended up with a great NBA career. His two years culminated in the best two NCAA tournament runs UC has had in the modern era.
7. Gary Clark- This is where I have Gary, but if he leads UC to a final four I could see moving him as high as 4.
8. Jason Maxiell- I put him and Gary on similar levels for their UC careers. The difference being, Gary is the leader of a top ten caliber team. Max played on the 2002 team but was a roll player.
 
01-23-2018 10:48 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-23-2018 10:48 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  So I can't intelligently speak to pre Huggins era Bearcats but I'll give you my list of MOST IMPORTANT Bearcats from Huggins era and beyond:

If you're talking IMPORTANT, and not productive;

I think Dontonio Wingfield has to be on that list, I think he opened the door for Flint and Fortson to come here. Huggins first McDonald's all-american recruit.

How good would he have been in this era too? 6'8, 9 RPG as a freshman, 40% from 3 (had 44 makes).

Would have loved to have seen him play one more year next to Fortson.
 
01-23-2018 11:01 AM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
To get to 1,500 career points he would need to average around 15 PPG down the stretch or slightly less if UC has a very deep run in March. Would put Clark 14th in scoring and 3rd in rebounding while passing both Paul Hogue and Robert Miller in those two categories.
 
01-23-2018 11:09 AM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-23-2018 11:09 AM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  To get to 1,500 career points he would need to average around 15 PPG down the stretch or slightly less if UC has a very deep run in March. Would put Clark 14th in scoring and 3rd in rebounding while passing both Paul Hogue and Robert Miller in those two categories.

I think he doesn't quite get to 1,500. Gary has come on strong the last three games with 14-17 point performances, but IMHO he will get back to baseline at some point and average 10-12 points a night over the last stretch of the season (based on his career averages). I see him finishing north of 1400 points and in that 16-17 range. Obviously a lot of this is dependent on how many games we play in the conference tournament and NCAAT.

OTOH, I listened to Mick's interview with the media and he indicated he has counseled Gary of late to start putting up more points so that it will help get him "noticed" by scouts for his professional career. Its possible that the 14-15 points will be the new norm, since the 10-12 ppg was based on Gary being unselfish and distributing the ball.
 
01-23-2018 11:19 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-23-2018 11:19 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 11:09 AM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  To get to 1,500 career points he would need to average around 15 PPG down the stretch or slightly less if UC has a very deep run in March. Would put Clark 14th in scoring and 3rd in rebounding while passing both Paul Hogue and Robert Miller in those two categories.

I think he doesn't quite get to 1,500. Gary has come on strong the last three games with 14-17 point performances, but IMHO he will get back to baseline at some point and average 10-12 points a night over the last stretch of the season (based on his career averages). I see him finishing north of 1400 points and in that 16-17 range. Obviously a lot of this is dependent on how many games we play in the conference tournament and NCAAT.

OTOH, I listened to Mick's interview with the media and he indicated he has counseled Gary of late to start putting up more points so that it will help get him "noticed" by scouts for his professional career. Its possible that the 14-15 points will be the new norm, since the 10-12 ppg was based on Gary being unselfish and distributing the ball.

Might damn time. Clark deserves to shine a little.
Looking at those lists, I notice all those people who left early. It's hard to impress on people just how dominant of a player Danny Fortson really was. If he had stayed all 4 years he'd be top 5 in both categories.
 
01-23-2018 12:02 PM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?

 
01-23-2018 01:13 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-23-2018 12:02 PM)Recluse1 Wrote:  Looking at those lists, I notice all those people who left early. It's hard to impress on people just how dominant of a player Danny Fortson really was. If he had stayed all 4 years he'd be top 5 in both categories.
Sorry if it feels like I'm beating a dead horse but you just quantified something I usually repeat when these debates come up. Fortsons dominance clearly separates him from the Shoemaker Era cats. On my list he goes #1 without any real competition and start the debate at #2.

Mo was discussing this yesterday and said he knows there's better players but when someone asks where Gary is he's easily a top 5 favorite player. As far as best players of the era I'd have him first big guy off the bench behind Danny and Kenyon but as far as favorites I'm not so sure Gary isn't going to be my #1.
 
01-23-2018 01:23 PM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
We all obviously know Clark does things that don't necessarily show up in the box score, but it's staggering when you look at advanced stats. He's by far the leader in career win shares in AAC history. Yes, there are guys like Ojeleye, Kilpatrick, Napier, etc. that had huge seasons in their one year in the league, but Clark's dominance over a career is so impressive.

Win Shares:
1. Gary Clark 19.99
2. Troy Caupain 15.73
3. Ben Moore 15.72
4. Nic Moore 15.69
5. Sterling Brown 15.25

7. Jacob Evans 12.65

To add even more context, Gary is on pace to have 22.36 career win shares at the end of the regular season. That would place him 8th (for players since 1995) in the ACC, 4th in the Big East, 3rd in the Big 10, 3rd in the Big 12, and 1st in the Pac-12.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 02:01 PM by JFlight21.)
01-24-2018 01:55 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
It's hard to compare players who play completely different positions, and I know next to nothing about players before the Huggins era. But considering the Huggins and Cronin eras, I would put Gary Clark either 3rd or 4th among the 4's and 5's, either just ahead of or just behind Maxiell. Martin and Fortson are in their own class, with Clark and Maxiell heading up the 2nd tier, along with Hicks and Gates. The tough ones to rank are guys like Corie Blount and Dontonio Wingfield, who weren't here long but did go to the NBA. Blount in particular had a really long NBA career. Hell, even Art Long had a stint in the NBA, even if he didn't exactly make us proud to be Bearcats fans...
 
01-24-2018 04:42 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
(01-24-2018 04:42 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  It's hard to compare players who play completely different positions, and I know next to nothing about players before the Huggins era. But considering the Huggins and Cronin eras, I would put Gary Clark either 3rd or 4th among the 4's and 5's, either just ahead of or just behind Maxiell. Martin and Fortson are in their own class, with Clark and Maxiell heading up the 2nd tier, along with Hicks and Gates. The tough ones to rank are guys like Corie Blount and Dontonio Wingfield, who weren't here long but did go to the NBA. Blount in particular had a really long NBA career. Hell, even Art Long had a stint in the NBA, even if he didn't exactly make us proud to be Bearcats fans...

I thought Wingfield was better than Maxiell here... they played different, but as a freshman, DW averaged more Pts, Reb, Stls and Assists than Maxiell ever did in a season. Maxiell played his role well and worked his butt off tho, Wingfield wasn't good enough to be a star in the NBA, but his game was suited to be a teams alpha. Also really depends if you're comparing peak season or career. Each player at their best I go Martin, Fortson, Clark, Wingfield, Blount, Maxiell, Brannen, Gates
 
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
Clark is now #9 in KenPom’s National Player of the Year rankings.
 
01-25-2018 09:45 AM
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RE: Gary Clark - Where Does He Stand All-Time?
When you factor in all facets of the game, defense, playing passing lanes, passing, outside shooting, scoring in the lane, he may be the best all around player we have had in the modern era. It may not be close.
 
01-25-2018 09:46 AM
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