(03-20-2018 01:27 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I feel like William and Mary should strive for excellence across the board so I applaud any and all increases of internal support that may happen. However, most of the examples of profile enhancement we keep pointing toward within the mid-major ranks are from schools that suffer from an identity crisis or reputation deficiency in relation to the other universities in their cities/states. That is not the case with William & Mary. It is not some directional school not getting the credit it may already deserve. The College will not receive the comparative "bump" many schools have when it does in fact splash into March Madness. It truthfully doesn't need it. It will simply be more fun.

You don't think we have a reputation deficiency? You don't think we have an identity crisis?

W&M relative to UVa / VPI? W&M gets no free media coverage compared to these two; ever wonder why? No issues?

W&M relative to JMU? The Dukes have done nothing but raise their profile over the last 40 years. No issues?

W&M relative to Richmond and Davidson? We can't even keep up with these two long-time friendly rivals. No issues?

W&M relative to G'town and GW? G'town has used hoops to incredibly raise its profile internationally. No issues?

W&M relative to Villanova? Nova has national titles in football and hoops, and a fine academic reputation. No issues?

W&M is getting smoked, and could use any bump it could get.

(03-20-2018 02:56 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 01:27 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I feel like William and Mary should strive for excellence across the board so I applaud any and all increases of internal support that may happen. However, most of the examples of profile enhancement we keep pointing toward within the mid-major ranks are from schools that suffer from an identity crisis or reputation deficiency in relation to the other universities in their cities/states. That is not the case with William & Mary. It is not some directional school not getting the credit it may already deserve. The College will not receive the comparative "bump" many schools have when it does in fact splash into March Madness. It truthfully doesn't need it. It will simply be more fun.

You don't think we have a reputation deficiency? You don't think we have an identity crisis?

W&M relative to UVa / VPI? W&M gets no free media coverage compared to these two; ever wonder why? No issues?

W&M relative to JMU? The Dukes have done nothing but raise their profile over the last 40 years. No issues?

W&M relative to Richmond and Davidson? We can't even keep up with these two long-time friendly rivals. No issues?

W&M relative to G'town and GW? G'town has used hoops to incredibly raise its profile internationally. No issues?

W&M relative to Villanova? Nova has national titles in football and hoops, and a fine academic reputation. No issues?

W&M is getting smoked, and could use any bump it could get.

Ahh, you're talking about athletics. Only? There are only two schools on that entire list that are, without fail, looked at as superior academically. And that is UVA...No number of NCAA tourney births will change that, and Georgetown, which sits next to our nation's capital. That may have a little to do with their international appeal. Look, I don't disagree that an NCAA tourney on occasion will make William and Mary more of a household name but I'm simply saying it is not the panacea people are making it out to be on this thread...

If you're just looking at athletically...we compete pretty well with the non-power 5 schools on that list. Very well actually and I'd say our academic reputation is generally favorable.

Again, instead of getting beaten up anymore, lol, I'm going to restate my overall opinion and that is we should strive for excellence in everything we do.

Very few things would raise our profile--in a positive manner--the way a NCAAT berth would. I don't know how anyone could question that with a straight face.

A presidential debate on campus is the only thing I can think of that would rival that level of positive publicity.

No one had ever heard of UMBC before last week. I bet their application numbers will go through the roof.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Couple of quoted tweets that show the impact of the NCAAT on universities.

"FL Gulf Coasts admissions applications increased 27.5% after their Sweet 16 run in 2013. Butlers increased 50% from 2009-11 after Final 4 runs in 2010 & 11. George Masons inquiries went up 350%. Athletics fills beds and builds new buildings. Dont let anyone tell u otherwise..."

"George Masons Final 4 run in 06 resulted in an est $677 million in free advertising. NM States bowl win in '17 generated $24 million. Butlers two Final 4s? $1.2 BILLION. VCUs licensing jumped 219% after their '11 run. Seems like a pretty good investment. Value athletics."

Article about the effects at FGCU
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...mp/519846/

Article about basketball saving Gonzaga University
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketba...y-flourish

(03-20-2018 03:38 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Again, instead of getting beaten up anymore, lol, I'm going to restate my overall opinion and that is we should strive for excellence in everything we do.

No one is arguing this point. In fact, this was a primary fact in our push for improving the basketball atmosphere: We, as a college, strive for excellence in most everything we do. Why should athletics be any different?

And, just using the eyeball test, what have we done over the past 30 years that indicates our push for excellence in the basketball program?

(03-20-2018 04:06 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Couple of quoted tweets that show the impact of the NCAAT on universities.

"FL Gulf Coasts admissions applications increased 27.5% after their Sweet 16 run in 2013. Butlers increased 50% from 2009-11 after Final 4 runs in 2010 & 11. George Masons inquiries went up 350%. Athletics fills beds and builds new buildings. Dont let anyone tell u otherwise..."

"George Masons Final 4 run in 06 resulted in an est $677 million in free advertising. NM States bowl win in '17 generated $24 million. Butlers two Final 4s? $1.2 BILLION. VCUs licensing jumped 219% after their '11 run. Seems like a pretty good investment. Value athletics."

Article about the effects at FGCU
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...mp/519846/

Article about basketball saving Gonzaga University
http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketba...y-flourish

It's known as the Flutie Effect (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutie_effect)

(03-20-2018 04:32 PM)Mrs. Got Ribe Wrote:  

(03-20-2018 03:38 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Again, instead of getting beaten up anymore, lol, I'm going to restate my overall opinion and that is we should strive for excellence in everything we do.

No one is arguing this point. In fact, this was a primary fact in our push for improving the basketball atmosphere: We, as a college, strive for excellence in most everything we do. Why should athletics be any different?

And, just using the eyeball test, what have we done over the past 30 years that indicates our push for excellence in the basketball program?

We replaced the dirty ceiling tiles at Kaplan. Or maybe..............we just painted over the dirt. I also think that my seat cushion has been changed at least once since 1975, which is really important since it had to survive the Swenson years!! I really have hoped for years that we would hire Garrett Morris to stand in front of my section and yell out all of the things that the PA announcer says that I cannot make out.

(03-20-2018 04:44 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  'I also think that my seat cushion has been changed at least once since 1975, which is really important since it had to survive the Swenson years!!

The examples everyone is pointing toward are schools that still have 60-70% acceptance rates. The impact George Mason got as basically a commuter, part time school will not be approached if the Tribe makes a deep run or any kind of run in the tourney. It will be a blast and definitely will affect the college in a positive fashion but, again, the base at which we would be entering is WAY different.

No disrespect to Tribe3455, but when I read replies like this, I realize how many W&M grads probably also feel this way.
W&M is a wonderful school, no doubt, but anytime we start thinking we are at the peak of what we can achieve, that is when we start moving in the other direction.

As Got Ribe mentioned, the farther west you go in this country, the fewer and fewer people know anything significant about W&M. I, as many know, like to use the Starsky & Hutch example, "a Girl's School in the Northeast" line, written by W&M alum Karen Hall. That was what people used to tell her when she moved to LA and would ask people about W&M.
I also agree, wholeheartedly, with the idea that this kind of exposure would bring a whole new realm of folks to apply for admission at W&M and would do more for our "diversity" effort than our current programs have even begun to realize.

While a higher profile in sports (particularly the basketball program), is not a panacea or Magic Bullet, it IS something that we have not really tried to leverage, always using the "we have no money" excuse.
Well, now, at this point in time, we seem to have some momentum towards getting people, that matter, behind this effort and that is why I realize, when I read the we're already great comments, how much still has to be done, because, if the people on this board still think we don't really need to move forward (again, this is not a shot at 3455, just a general feeling), then what about the people who truly are just indifferent to the situation.

All I can say is, it's probably going to be a lot of work to achieve our goal, so we need to keep up the diligent effort of positive "suggesting" to anyone in power who will listen.



...also, I don't want to HAVE to live to 98 (go, Sister Jean) to see W&M make the Tournament.

As opposed to the schools, other than GTown and UVA, mentioned in this discussion, W&M doesn't need more applicants: we were swamped with close to 34000 this academic year with an acceptance rate of 32%....far less the 70% of the schools mentioned. And it costs more than $60,000 a year to attend W&M from out-of-state!

The battle to gain admission to W&M is on a par with UVA and GTown and other academic strongholds.

NCAA participation would, of course, raise the College's visibility enormously, especially the first time we achieve it and surely help attract more student-athletes and garner more media attention and help all W&M fund-raising. But academically it's a non-starter.

It's probably the fund raising for both athletics and the general funds that would gain the most from enhanced success in athletics.

Let me try this approach.

Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Villanova has won two national titles in big boy basketball.

Can we emulate Villanova?

Should we emulate Villanova?

(03-21-2018 05:48 AM)BigTribe3 Wrote:  As opposed to the schools, other than GTown and UVA, mentioned in this discussion, W&M doesn't need more applicants: we were swamped with close to 34000 this academic year with an acceptance rate of 32%....far less the 70% of the schools mentioned. And it costs more than $60,000 a year to attend W&M from out-of-state!

The battle to gain admission to W&M is on a par with UVA and GTown and other academic strongholds.

I will grant you this.

However, this is only the first half of the equation.

The second half of the equation concerns those folks who get an acceptance letter, as well as admission letters to UVa, VPI, G'town, JMU, Nova, etc.

Those folks, the ones with multiple acceptances and multiple options, those folks ... are they choosing W&M over the aforementioned schools? If they're not, why not? Is this a problem on a go forward basis with the make-up of our future alumni/donor base?

(03-20-2018 09:25 PM)billymac Wrote:  No disrespect to Tribe3455, but when I read replies like this, I realize how many W&M grads probably also feel this way.
W&M is a wonderful school, no doubt, but anytime we start thinking we are at the peak of what we can achieve, that is when we start moving in the other direction.

As Got Ribe mentioned, the farther west you go in this country, the fewer and fewer people know anything significant about W&M. I, as many know, like to use the Starsky & Hutch example, "a Girl's School in the Northeast" line, written by W&M alum Karen Hall. That was what people used to tell her when she moved to LA and would ask people about W&M.
I also agree, wholeheartedly, with the idea that this kind of exposure would bring a whole new realm of folks to apply for admission at W&M and would do more for our "diversity" effort than our current programs have even begun to realize.

While a higher profile in sports (particularly the basketball program), is not a panacea or Magic Bullet, it IS something that we have not really tried to leverage, always using the "we have no money" excuse.
Well, now, at this point in time, we seem to have some momentum towards getting people, that matter, behind this effort and that is why I realize, when I read the we're already great comments, how much still has to be done, because, if the people on this board still think we don't really need to move forward (again, this is not a shot at 3455, just a general feeling), then what about the people who truly are just indifferent to the situation.

All I can say is, it's probably going to be a lot of work to achieve our goal, so we need to keep up the diligent effort of positive "suggesting" to anyone in power who will listen.



...also, I don't want to HAVE to live to 98 (go, Sister Jean) to see W&M make the Tournament.

No offense taken but I never said we shouldn’t move forward or improve I merely said we have less to gain the most of the schools we have talked about. And I never said that was a reason not to strive to have a better program. And sadly we are already more racially diverse than Richmond, Gonzaga, George Washington etc. I’m not sure that is a real end result.

(03-21-2018 07:19 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  ...I merely said we have less to gain the most of the schools we have talked about.

And I don't think that our ceiling is necessarily the same as those other schools.

Got Ribe!

To me, increased visibility from making waves in the NCAAT isn't about increasing student application rates. It means increased fan & student interest home and away. Increased alumni interest and giving. Increased respect for the program and conference. NCAAT share money which is invaluable to grow the program. All of these lead to an infusion of $$ which leads to better recruiting budgets, $$ for arena renovation and practice facilities, and the clout to attract sexier home opponents.

and more recruits will know who we are and therefore could improve our pool of potential recruits. This is probably the most important short run gain. If more recruits understood the type of offense we run they may have different thoughts. It's a lot more fun to play our style than UVA's.

(03-21-2018 07:55 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  To me, increased visibility from making waves in the NCAAT isn't about increasing student application rates. It means increased fan & student interest home and away. Increased alumni interest and giving. Increased respect for the program and conference. NCAAT share money which is invaluable to grow the program. All of these lead to an infusion of $$ which leads to better recruiting budgets, $$ for arena renovation and practice facilities, and the clout to attract sexier home opponents.

For basketball, we have never been anything close to any of the programs that were listed. For football, we are FCS for life and not at the top(or really near it). We might have a chance to make some significant inroads in the next 12-36 months. The gold rush game in basketball and Homecoming in football indicate that we are able to get a large number of fans out. But, those are not the dedicated fans. There has been a significant push at W&M for the students to try and support as many of their fellow classmates activities as possible. The students did a good job this season of supporting the basketball team when the students were actually in school. I think for football it was more of the significant down season especially for the offense that led to less support. I expect we will see a turnaround there. Having been a fan of both since I attended, I personally think basketball has the better current potential to yield significant positive exposure to the school. But, this is just a function of where things are currently. Had the 2009 team which was so fantastic won at Villanova and then defeated Montana in the championship, we possibly would be looking at a different scenario. But, maybe not. That 2009 championship did not really change the football program at Nova nor lead to better facilities or significantly better attendance. The Tribe saw great improvement in facilities after the successes of 2004 and 2009 without the championship.

In the case of men's basketball, the sustained success along with a CAA championship and an NCAA appearance might lead to something significant. I certainly would like to see it for the players, the staff(Tony especially), the current students and many of you. Let's just say that we think it would and we are ready to have arguments over whether it does. Let's plan to have the discussion in the fall of 2020(after our appearance in 2019).

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It happened, and no amount of tinfoil will change it.