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Are the Germans losing their edge?
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 04:59 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I recall one if them in particular featured a new proprietary state of the art, high tech PCV system. Problem was, as we found out the hard way, it needed to be cleaned out annually or it would clog and the turbo would blow. The other problem was it wasn't a simple valve on top of the crankcase, it was a series of tubes and oil separators that were buried under everything else and it cost a cool $1,200 in labor just to clean it.

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BMW once infamously used a plastic water pump.
01-12-2018 05:23 PM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 04:59 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I recall one if them in particular featured a new proprietary state of the art, high tech PCV system. Problem was, as we found out the hard way, it needed to be cleaned out annually or it would clog and the turbo would blow. The other problem was it wasn't a simple valve on top of the crankcase, it was a series of tubes and oil separators that were buried under everything else and it cost a cool $1,200 in labor just to clean it.

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For the life of my wife's car, every time you had to change brake pads, you also had to change the "consumable rotors" - $750 every time......
01-12-2018 06:02 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 06:02 PM)Crebman Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 04:59 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I recall one if them in particular featured a new proprietary state of the art, high tech PCV system. Problem was, as we found out the hard way, it needed to be cleaned out annually or it would clog and the turbo would blow. The other problem was it wasn't a simple valve on top of the crankcase, it was a series of tubes and oil separators that were buried under everything else and it cost a cool $1,200 in labor just to clean it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

For the life of my wife's car, every time you had to change brake pads, you also had to change the "consumable rotors" - $750 every time......
Audi, you have to remove the whole front end to change water pump or fuel pump. Bumper lights, whole front end.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 06:29 PM by shere khan.)
01-12-2018 06:29 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #24
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 01:26 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am curious why Germany needed naval force projection to deliver marines to foreign beaches, but whatevs.......

The 4th Reich


Pop quiz:

Who was the 1st Reich?
01-12-2018 06:30 PM
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shere khan Offline
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RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 06:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:26 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am curious why Germany needed naval force projection to deliver marines to foreign beaches, but whatevs.......

The 4th Reich


Pop quiz:

Who was the 1st Reich?

Roman empire? I was being a smartass with 4th reich
01-12-2018 06:37 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 12:34 PM)miko33 Wrote:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-engi...1515753000

Quote:Germany’s naval brass in 2005 dreamed up a warship that could ferry marines into combat anywhere in the world, go up against enemy ships and stay away from home ports for two years with a crew half the size of its predecessor’s.

First delivered for sea trials in 2016 after a series of delays, the 7,000-ton Baden-Württemberg frigate was determined last month to have an unexpected design flaw: It doesn’t really work.

Defense experts cite the warship’s buggy software and ill-considered arsenal—as well as what was until recently its noticeable list to starboard—as symptoms of deeper, more intractable problems: Shrinking military expertise and growing confusion among German leaders about what the country’s armed forces are for.

A litany of bungled infrastructure projects has tarred Germany’s reputation for engineering prowess. There is still no opening date for Berlin’s new €6 billion ($7.2 billion) airport, which is already 10 years behind schedule, and the redesign of Stuttgart’s railway station remains stalled more than a decade after work on the project started. Observers have blamed these mishaps on poor planning and project management, which also figured in major setbacks for several big military projects.

They have been losing thier edge for a while. Volkswagons suck these days.

That said, this program reminds me a great deal of our own Navy's Littoral Combat Ship program. The US Navy basically designed a ship they thought we needed. The Cold War was over and the big blue water Russian Navy was gone. We needed a a bunch of relatively cheap ships that could perform lots of duties and could be sent to fight in the small remote coastal wars around the globe. We envisioned something fast and small that could deal with the terrorists and Somali pirates of the world--but with a cargo bay that could accept "modules" that would allow the vessel to perform different more traditional naval functions like submarine tracking, mine hunting, convoy escort, or SEAL team delivery.

Like the Germans, by the time the ship was ready---we found the threat picture had changed. The Russia blue water navy was back--plus--the friggin Chinese were building a blue water navy of their own. So now, we needed to rebuild our sagging blue water navy numbers---but the Littoral Ship literally had virtually no over the horizon anti-ship capability. Thus, the Littoral Combat Ship was largely worthless in a blue water conflict.

So, less than a third of the way into the building run---the Navy is working to re-tool the product in order to convert the Littoral Combat Ship into the Littoral "frigate". The idea is to give it better anti-ship weapons, more defensive survivability, a better sensor array, and make it a viable blue water warship. That very basic retool doesnt even address a host of reliablity issues with the ships propulsion system---but thats another story.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 06:45 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-12-2018 06:37 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 05:23 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 04:59 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I recall one if them in particular featured a new proprietary state of the art, high tech PCV system. Problem was, as we found out the hard way, it needed to be cleaned out annually or it would clog and the turbo would blow. The other problem was it wasn't a simple valve on top of the crankcase, it was a series of tubes and oil separators that were buried under everything else and it cost a cool $1,200 in labor just to clean it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

BMW once infamously used a plastic water pump.

Mercedes made a huge sedan model with all mineral oil hydraulics....sunroof, power windows...you could not even shut the trunk without the hydraulic system without breaking it...what could go wrong? It all did.
01-12-2018 06:53 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #28
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 06:37 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 06:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:26 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am curious why Germany needed naval force projection to deliver marines to foreign beaches, but whatevs.......

The 4th Reich


Pop quiz:

Who was the 1st Reich?

Roman empire? I was being a smartass with 4th reich


Very close, the Holy Roman Empire to be exact. 04-cheers
01-12-2018 06:58 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 06:53 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:23 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 04:59 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I recall one if them in particular featured a new proprietary state of the art, high tech PCV system. Problem was, as we found out the hard way, it needed to be cleaned out annually or it would clog and the turbo would blow. The other problem was it wasn't a simple valve on top of the crankcase, it was a series of tubes and oil separators that were buried under everything else and it cost a cool $1,200 in labor just to clean it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

BMW once infamously used a plastic water pump.

Mercedes made a huge sedan model with all mineral oil hydraulics....sunroof, power windows...you could not even shut the trunk without the hydraulic system without breaking it...what could go wrong? It all did.

I’ve heard of that before.

That’s called being stupid. The German car companies have been doing it for decades. Complexity is not superior engineering.
01-12-2018 07:05 PM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
Germany is starting to balance out a bit in terms of political power. It went too far down one of the roads, and now it's tilting back to normalcy. Germany will be fine, it's just that Merkel is past her sell by date and needs to retire.
01-12-2018 08:53 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 08:53 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Germany is starting to balance out a bit in terms of political power. It went too far down one of the roads, and now it's tilting back to normalcy. Germany will be fine, it's just that Merkel is past her sell by date and needs to retire.

Thats like saying the house is only half burned down and the flames aren't quite as high
01-12-2018 09:13 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #32
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
The Germans are great automotive innovators. They roll something new out and within two years Toyota and Honda have figured out how to do the same thing more simply, at low cost and with fewer moving parts.

The German Navy having issues with a force projection warship? That's so not surprising. The long German naval history has in general been about ships for coastal defense and blockade busters/discouragers. Prussia/Germany has traditionally relied on allies to deal with bigger naval issues.
01-14-2018 11:43 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-14-2018 11:43 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  The Germans are great automotive innovators. They roll something new out and within two years Toyota and Honda have figured out how to do the same thing more simply, at low cost and with fewer moving parts.

The German Navy having issues with a force projection warship? That's so not surprising. The long German naval history has in general been about ships for coastal defense and blockade busters/discouragers. Prussia/Germany has traditionally relied on allies to deal with bigger naval issues.

I think that in truth the German auto industry, while innovative, is less innovative than you would think.

Very little of what makes the modern car modern was created by the Germans. They have managed to sell themselves as that though.

The most innovative car company of all time is Cadillac.
01-14-2018 12:55 PM
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bubbapt Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
Come to think of it, last time I was in Germany, the trains weren't running on time.

I'm sure they'll be fine.
01-14-2018 01:13 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 03:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  German engineering prowess is more the result of a a quasi-marketing campaign than anything based in fact.

I can attest personally through my job... that German made plywood presses, wide belt and cross feed sanders, routers, panel saws,planers, edge banders and shapers are the best made machinery in the world. Im talking about probably 5 to 6 million US dollars worth of heavy duty industrial machinery. If our industry is any indication of the quality of German made machinery..then Germany makes VERY high quality gear.

We have a couple of good US made and Italian machines..but..Industry wide it is a fact that Germans make excellent wood working machinery.
01-14-2018 03:13 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 05:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The high end german stuff for years tended to be way over engineered with an eye towards initial performance but no reasonable heed paid to the fact that parts may someday actually need to be removed, replaced or maintained. You'd find yourself asking WTF the sadistic designers were thinking when having to pull the front half of an engine apart just to change a fan belt or spark plugs.

German machinery is made with superstructures twice as heavy as any made elsewhere. Germans understand that the carriage of a machine is crucial to dampening vibration and holding tolerances. Simply stated...German machinery is built to LAST and be accurate. I have nothing but admiration and praise for the engineering of the machinery that I work with every day....much of it over pushing 30 years of service.

Much of the criticism here is dealing with the auto industry. I can attest the machine tool industry in Germany is far superior to anywhere on the planet.
01-14-2018 03:20 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-14-2018 03:20 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The high end german stuff for years tended to be way over engineered with an eye towards initial performance but no reasonable heed paid to the fact that parts may someday actually need to be removed, replaced or maintained. You'd find yourself asking WTF the sadistic designers were thinking when having to pull the front half of an engine apart just to change a fan belt or spark plugs.

German machinery is made with superstructures twice as heavy as any made elsewhere. Germans understand that the carriage of a machine is crucial to dampening vibration and holding tolerances. Simply stated...German machinery is built to LAST and be accurate. I have nothing but admiration and praise for the engineering of the machinery that I work with every day....much of it over pushing 30 years of service.

Much of the criticism here is dealing with the auto industry. I can attest the machine tool industry in Germany is far superior to anywhere on the planet.

when in doubt, the old adage of "tossing more metal at it" comes to mind.....that's what my PE told me when I was in doubt during consultation....

what has become the problem is the cost of mat'l vs. design vs. competition vs. mat'l reduction mandates.....

my response to the upper tier heads was simply, "I can only pull out so much mat'l before the problem becomes a bigger problem....you guys need to cut cost in another area" the management dipshites have no clue what a "constant" demands in design....

that dipshite mandate came at the height of the china's overbuilding before we could react to raw mat'l cost increases.....what a nightmare that became....
01-14-2018 04:34 PM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 09:13 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:53 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Germany is starting to balance out a bit in terms of political power. It went too far down one of the roads, and now it's tilting back to normalcy. Germany will be fine, it's just that Merkel is past her sell by date and needs to retire.

Thats like saying the house is only half burned down and the flames aren't quite as high

LOL.

It's the minor victories that count!
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 05:50 PM by oliveandblue.)
01-14-2018 05:49 PM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 12:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am curious why Germany needed naval force projection to deliver marines to foreign beaches, but whatevs.......

It carries 50 SOF guys (apparently regularly) for landing by the embarked helo, which someone apparently translated as "marines."

The Germans have built over-engineered warships since the Kaiser was still around. They're not losing their edge, they're maintaining a long tradition.
01-14-2018 08:22 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Are the Germans losing their edge?
(01-12-2018 05:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The high end german stuff for years tended to be way over engineered with an eye towards initial performance but no reasonable heed paid to the fact that parts may someday actually need to be removed, replaced or maintained. You'd find yourself asking WTF the sadistic designers were thinking when having to pull the front half of an engine apart just to change a fan belt or spark plugs.

It was no different in WWII. The German Tiger Tank was plagued with problems that the Russians realized when they first captured one. The T34 was born. It was armored well because it was stripped of complicated systems and creature comforts simplified to the point of being the superior tank and massed produced.

Think about the Bismark. The flaw was in the rudder design which could easily foul in combat, and guess what it did on its maiden voyage when the British Biplane called the Swordfish hit it with a torpedo and the rudder jammed causing the Bismark to sail in circles until the British were able to rake her with so many rounds that not much of the superstructure was left. But the Bismark was so well armored the Nazis scuttled the hulk before they abandoned ship.

So like the Tiger Tank it was superior in armaments, extremely sophisticated with a new directional firing system, and vulnerable in a very cheap and easy place to have made her more functional.

So there's nothing new here. That said they did a helluva job with the ME262 although it had too short of a range.

I've had two Volkswagens. A 1972 Super Beetle which was very functional except for the usual vapor check problem with the engine. But when I bought one of my daughters the car she wanted after graduating from college she chose a new VW Bug. It was an electrical system nightmare! She traded it for a Hyundai which she got over 300,000 miles on without any major repair.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 09:51 PM by JRsec.)
01-14-2018 09:43 PM
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