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Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
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ken d Online
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Post: #1
Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.
01-11-2018 09:52 PM
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Post: #2
RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

They are trying to let teams know where they are at and who is in range. They do try to pair 5-6, 7-8, etc. in the bowls.

Ultimately, it is all just a TV show for ESPN on Tuesday nights.
01-11-2018 09:53 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
I just figured they were emulating the AP Poll.
01-11-2018 09:57 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-11-2018 09:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

They are trying to let teams know where they are at and who is in range. They do try to pair 5-6, 7-8, etc. in the bowls.

Ultimately, it is all just a TV show for ESPN on Tuesday nights.

Would that affect how hard those teams play down the stretch?
01-11-2018 10:02 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

Well, you answered your question. First and foremost, college athletics is about entertainment and marketing, for the schools and their media partners. So of course they will do it in a way that maximizes entertainment and marketing value.
01-12-2018 07:57 AM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
The entire system is ridiculous.
01-12-2018 08:58 AM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
Considering that the rankings mean almost nothing until the final one, it does seem rather pathetic. Like that one year that TCU was in the top 4, destroyed whomever they were playing, and dropped out of the Final 4 just in time for the playoffs. So who really gives a **** where somebody is before the final week.
01-12-2018 11:47 AM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

I'd guess it has something to do with marketing both from the network and school standpoint.

A school saying they've been a "Top 25" program for the last several years carries more weight with recruits than just a "program".

A network can market and advertise a "top 25 matchup" with a bit more exclusiveness than just two schools.

It also gives schools a means to measure their success and eventual goals against others.
01-12-2018 12:21 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 12:21 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  A network can market and advertise a "top 25 matchup" with a bit more exclusiveness than just two schools.

This is a big part of it. ESPN wants a CFP top 25 to promote upcoming telecasts, so they can identify teams as #6 or #19 or whatever, and by getting those rankings from a CFP top 25 instead of an AP or "coaches" top 25, ESPN reinforces its own narrative that the CFP rankings are important.
01-12-2018 12:34 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 12:21 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

I'd guess it has something to do with marketing both from the network and school standpoint.

A school saying they've been a "Top 25" program for the last several years carries more weight with recruits than just a "program".

A network can market and advertise a "top 25 matchup" with a bit more exclusiveness than just two schools.

It also gives schools a means to measure their success and eventual goals against others.

All of those things can happen by using the AP Poll like we have since 1936. The CFP ranking adds nothing the AP Poll doesn't offer for marketing and measuring purposes. The CFP ranking beyond the top 12 is superfluous. And since it adds neither clarity or transparency, its entire purpose seems to be to stir up controversy for its own sake.
01-12-2018 12:35 PM
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Post: #11
RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 12:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:21 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.

I'd guess it has something to do with marketing both from the network and school standpoint.

A school saying they've been a "Top 25" program for the last several years carries more weight with recruits than just a "program".

A network can market and advertise a "top 25 matchup" with a bit more exclusiveness than just two schools.

It also gives schools a means to measure their success and eventual goals against others.

All of those things can happen by using the AP Poll like we have since 1936. The CFP ranking adds nothing the AP Poll doesn't offer for marketing and measuring purposes. The CFP ranking beyond the top 12 is superfluous. And since it adds neither clarity or transparency, its entire purpose seems to be to stir up controversy for its own sake.

AP policy is that they are in the business of reporting the news, not making the news. Remember that after much debate they had told the BCS to remove them from the selection process or they would discontinue the poll.

Going beyond 12 is not superfluous.
The Access Bowl selections have been rated
2014 Boise State 20
2015 Houston 18
2016 Western Michigan 15
2017 UCF 12

Going deeper allows the G5 contenders to see where they stand in the race for the access slot.
01-12-2018 04:25 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
^^^^ Exactly this. In addition to the entertainment value of the ranking process, the other reason (and a good one) is the G5 piece. We have already seen races for that spot where the teams in contention were in the high teens to twenty-something.
01-12-2018 07:10 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 12:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  All of those things can happen by using the AP Poll like we have since 1936. The CFP ranking adds nothing the AP Poll doesn't offer for marketing and measuring purposes. The CFP ranking beyond the top 12 is superfluous. And since it adds neither clarity or transparency, its entire purpose seems to be to stir up controversy for its own sake.

Not really. The BCS rankings have been used since 1999 or so by networks for the "ranking" of teams for marketing purpose once they were released mid-season. The playoff is the same way. It is a continuation of that model. You could have made the same case about BCS rankings not needing to go past 12 as well, save for the rare exception of non-BCS teams getting an auto bid (prior to the 5th game expansion). After that, it was rather necessary. And since the playoff system rankings are used, among other things, to place the top G5 champion, it is pretty much necessary.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 07:18 PM by adcorbett.)
01-12-2018 07:16 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)wleakr Wrote:  ^^^^ Exactly this. In addition to the entertainment value of the ranking process, the other reason (and a good one) is the G5 piece. We have already seen races for that spot where the teams in contention were in the high teens to twenty-something.

My premise is that the G5 representative is one of the 12 teams selected by the committee, and it doesn't matter whether they are ranked #12 or #25 (or worse).

My point also is what difference does it make whether a G5 team knows at any given time what the committee is thinking? Will it change who they will play the rest of the season? Will it change how they will play? Those questions are equally true of all other teams considered by the committee for one of the NY6 slots.

The BCS didn't find it necessary or useful to rank teams below #15, IIRC.

I repeat. The only reasons for the current process are to provide fodder for talking heads, and generate controversy.
01-12-2018 08:26 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 08:26 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)wleakr Wrote:  ^^^^ Exactly this. In addition to the entertainment value of the ranking process, the other reason (and a good one) is the G5 piece. We have already seen races for that spot where the teams in contention were in the high teens to twenty-something.

My premise is that the G5 representative is one of the 12 teams selected by the committee, and it doesn't matter whether they are ranked #12 or #25 (or worse).

My point also is what difference does it make whether a G5 team knows at any given time what the committee is thinking? Will it change who they will play the rest of the season? Will it change how they will play? Those questions are equally true of all other teams considered by the committee for one of the NY6 slots.

The BCS didn't find it necessary or useful to rank teams below #15, IIRC.

I repeat. The only reasons for the current process are to provide fodder for talking heads, and generate controversy.

All the BCS rankings I've seen were 1-25.

By your logic, there may as well be no polls, including AP & Coaches. For any sport, not just college football.

Teams want to know where they stand in relation to each other. And so do most fans. And it could make a difference in what a team does or what opposing teams do.

When you are that top school (P5 or G5), every team you face wants to take you down a peg and prove you're overrated.

You can't know that without some type of published information. You can't assume, especially for G5, that if you're undefeated you are the top team. The Western Michigan/AAC debate is a prime example. It all eventually worked out, but without the poll, there was no way of knowing how these teams stacked or who was favored.

Even speaking about the "why" in this thread is demonstrating the entertainment value of the polls.
01-12-2018 09:17 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-11-2018 09:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  As far as I can tell, that isn’t part of their charge. Their only responsibilities are to select the 12 teams for the NY6 bowl games, and to decide which of those are the four semifinalists.

So, other than to titillate and stir up controversy, why do they assign a numerical ranking to anybody? They could complete their mission without ever revealing a ranking at all. What does it matter whether they thought Team A was #5 or #11? In either case, they are not in the playoff, and they are in the NY6. Why not just leave it at that?

They could simply announce the bowl pairings that result from applying the various contractual, traditional and geographical considerations that may apply. Announce them in the order that the games will be played to avoid the appearance of a relative ranking. If Miami is the ACC’s contractual representative in the Orange Bowl, it doesn’t matter in which order the selection committee would have placed them. And what difference does it make where, numerically, the G5 representative might rank, as long as it isn’t in the Top 4?

The committee could save itself a lot of grief if they never issued a ranking from the first week they meet until the final selection is made. The only reason to do so is to give fans something to argue about, and to fill up hours of grist for the talking head mill. It’s all for show.
Because they think people are too stupid to know the difference and for the most part they are right.
01-12-2018 09:23 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-12-2018 09:17 PM)wleakr Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:26 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)wleakr Wrote:  ^^^^ Exactly this. In addition to the entertainment value of the ranking process, the other reason (and a good one) is the G5 piece. We have already seen races for that spot where the teams in contention were in the high teens to twenty-something.

My premise is that the G5 representative is one of the 12 teams selected by the committee, and it doesn't matter whether they are ranked #12 or #25 (or worse).

My point also is what difference does it make whether a G5 team knows at any given time what the committee is thinking? Will it change who they will play the rest of the season? Will it change how they will play? Those questions are equally true of all other teams considered by the committee for one of the NY6 slots.

The BCS didn't find it necessary or useful to rank teams below #15, IIRC.

I repeat. The only reasons for the current process are to provide fodder for talking heads, and generate controversy.

All the BCS rankings I've seen were 1-25.

By your logic, there may as well be no polls, including AP & Coaches. For any sport, not just college football.

Teams want to know where they stand in relation to each other. And so do most fans. And it could make a difference in what a team does or what opposing teams do.

When you are that top school (P5 or G5), every team you face wants to take you down a peg and prove you're overrated.

You can't know that without some type of published information. You can't assume, especially for G5, that if you're undefeated you are the top team. The Western Michigan/AAC debate is a prime example. It all eventually worked out, but without the poll, there was no way of knowing how these teams stacked or who was favored.

Even speaking about the "why" in this thread is demonstrating the entertainment value of the polls.

There is nothing in my logic that suggests there be no polls. The CFP rankings are superfluous because there are existing polls that do the same thing. And I'm not suggesting the selection committee wouldn't rank teams for the purpose of completing their assigned mission. All I'm suggesting is that it isn't necessary to tell anybody outside that committee in what order the teams they consider to be the best were ranked.

When Memphis played UCF in the AAC CCG, do you really think they would have played differently or harder if they thought they were ranked ahead of UCF when the game started? And would it have made a difference if Memphis had won that nail biter if UCF were the higher ranked team? After all, Memphis would have gone to the NY6 bowl even if they were ranked lower than UCF in the final poll.
01-13-2018 10:13 AM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-13-2018 10:13 AM)ken d Wrote:  There is nothing in my logic that suggests there be no polls. The CFP rankings are superfluous because there are existing polls that do the same thing. And I'm not suggesting the selection committee wouldn't rank teams for the purpose of completing their assigned mission. All I'm suggesting is that it isn't necessary to tell anybody outside that committee in what order the teams they consider to be the best were ranked.

Ken, why are you asking questions you know the answer to?

The CFP rankings are revealed each week on a show that makes ESPN money. If they did what you suggest, they wouldn't have that show any more.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 01:09 PM by quo vadis.)
01-13-2018 01:08 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
Tradition. Everyone wants a top 25 poll and to be able to put the numbers next to teams as something to give viewers who might not be following closely a quick feeling for about how good a team might be. If the committee didn't, they would just keeping using AP numbers which would not feel right with the committee deciding things.

Also, it does give a sense for how the committee views things at the time. Yes, they start over each week, but still good to see how different things valued.
01-13-2018 01:34 PM
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RE: Why does the CFP selection committee rank 25 teams?
(01-13-2018 01:34 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Tradition. Everyone wants a top 25 poll and to be able to put the numbers next to teams as something to give viewers who might not be following closely a quick feeling for about how good a team might be. If the committee didn't, they would just keeping using AP numbers which would not feel right with the committee deciding things.

Funny you mention the AP but not the Coach's poll.

There's an argument in political economy that says it's *good* for religion when a democracy has separation of church and state. E.g., church attendance is a lot higher in the USA, which has separation, than in England, which has an official "Church of England".

The point? Something similar seems to have happened with the Coach's poll. The Coach's poll was officially part of the BCS, and whoever won the BCS title game got the Coach's trophy. In contrast, the AP has always remained independent.

Today, in the CFP era, the independent AP still has credibility. When we want a ranking that is outside of the CFP, we cite the AP poll. Last week, when some wanted a "split championship", they called on the AP poll to vote for UCF instead of the CFP winner.

In contrast, the Coach's poll seems to lack all credibility. Nobody mentions it as a legitimate poll, even though it has not been a part of the official process since the BCS ended. For the past four years, it has not been a component of the CFP and is every bit as independent of the CFP machinations as is the AP poll.

But by marrying itself to the BCS, the Coach's poll seems to have permanently tainted itself.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 03:43 PM by quo vadis.)
01-13-2018 03:39 PM
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