Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
NCAA selections
Author Message
stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #1
NCAA selections
I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.
01-10-2018 11:23 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

leofrog Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 169
Joined: May 2005
Reputation: 7
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #2
RE: NCAA selections
Warrennolan.com now breaks out the new "Tiers." I think it makes sense that you play the #50 team home and home, they should not count the same.


RPI Group 1: Home (1-30) Neutral (1-50) Away (1-75)
RPI Group 2: Home (31-75) Neutral (51-100) Away (76-135)
RPI Group 3: Home (76-160) Neutral (101-200) Away (136-240)
RPI Group 4: Home (161-351) Neutral (201-351) Away (241-351)
01-10-2018 12:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #3
RE: NCAA selections
it's going to be negative for conferences that have teams in the 31-50 range- but positive for those in the 51-75 range. Negative for those that have teams in the 76-100 range, but positive for 101-135 range.
01-10-2018 12:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,339
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 83
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #4
RE: NCAA selections
I think it's just another way for the committee to flick off non-majors.

Even those just on the outside, like the A10, could really get stung. Rhode Island's RPI has them at 19. But, that's 2-3 versus the first two tiers. With the A10 so down this year, those numbers won't get considerably better for them. Their 2-3 put up against against, say, Georgia, at 40 but 5-2, or, heck...Minnesota currently at 2-3. We know Minnesota's going to have some better numbers against the top two tiers after it's all said and done.

In the other thread, we talk about Wisconsin being nearly dead. I don't like Gonzaga's chances this year with this new system, either. If they aren't winning the AQ, what's their real RPI ceiling at this point, and the best they can do against the top tiers?

I know it's early...but if it was possible to keep out high RPI non-majors like Missouri State and St. Bonaventure in the past...I think there's a chance we're going to see similar snubs soon, and done more frequently.
01-10-2018 04:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Wolfman Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,931
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 148
I Root For: The Game
Location: Raleigh, NC
Post: #5
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponets were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.
01-10-2018 04:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,339
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 83
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #6
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponets were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.

Because #73 road is a Group 1 metric, and #32 home is Group 2. It's a way of weighting road wins, emphasizing the importance of play off the home court, which is what tournament teams will see.

It's controversial, to be sure. If you beat a good team, you beat them. But, now there's this added layer of context. KenPom measures how you win, and now RPI cares about where. Still think the SOS skews it all, though, for RPI.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 04:54 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-10-2018 04:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
leofrog Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 169
Joined: May 2005
Reputation: 7
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #7
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 04:42 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I think it's just another way for the committee to flick off non-majors.

Even those just on the outside, like the A10, could really get stung. Rhode Island's RPI has them at 19. But, that's 2-3 versus the first two tiers. With the A10 so down this year, those numbers won't get considerably better for them. Their 2-3 put up against against, say, Georgia, at 40 but 5-2, or, heck...Minnesota currently at 2-3. We know Minnesota's going to have some better numbers against the top two tiers after it's all said and done.

In the other thread, we talk about Wisconsin being nearly dead. I don't like Gonzaga's chances this year with this new system, either. If they aren't winning the AQ, what's their real RPI ceiling at this point, and the best they can do against the top tiers?

I know it's early...but if it was possible to keep out high RPI non-majors like Missouri State and St. Bonaventure in the past...I think there's a chance we're going to see similar snubs soon, and done more frequently.

But, it could also work in their favor, especially for OOC games. Teams like Rhode Island usually can't get top teams to go to their place. But now, they can schedule somewhat easier opponents on the road, and get a bigger benefit out of that. I can see this actually helping teams like that if they schedule accordingly.

This is basically how the RPI is set up on college baseball. Instead of Tiers, they just weigh a home win as .7 of a win, and a road win as 1.3 of a win. Because of that, teams are schedule to take advantage of that.
01-10-2018 06:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
leofrog Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 169
Joined: May 2005
Reputation: 7
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #8
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponets were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.

Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.
01-10-2018 06:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Wolfman Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,931
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 148
I Root For: The Game
Location: Raleigh, NC
Post: #9
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 06:30 PM)leofrog Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponents were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.

Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.

That list doesn't explain the tiers at all. Nor does the website warrennolan.com

You can add all the Ross Perot charts and multipliers you want, I still say beating a team with at home with a 32 RPI is a much better win than beating a team on the road with a 40 point lower RPI. I guess that's why I am not on the selection committee.
01-10-2018 10:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #10
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 10:33 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 06:30 PM)leofrog Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponents were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.

Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.

That list doesn't explain the tiers at all. Nor does the website warrennolan.com

You can add all the Ross Perot charts and multipliers you want, I still say beating a team with at home with a 32 RPI is a much better win than beating a team on the road with a 40 point lower RPI. I guess that's why I am not on the selection committee.

They're making much more of a focus on what you do away from home. Which makes sense to large degree because you can't play at home in the tournament.
01-10-2018 11:27 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dbackjon Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,576
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 196
I Root For: NAU/Illini
Location:
Post: #11
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 11:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 10:33 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 06:30 PM)leofrog Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think 1 thing that folks need to stop thinking about in basketball is just blindly looking at records vs RPI top 50. That's no longer the case any longer. It's this year going to be better to beat #73 on the road than it is to beat #32 at home. I see people asking Lunardi questions on Twitter using RPI top 50 records.

How so? I could see if the opponents were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.


Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.

That list doesn't explain the tiers at all. Nor does the website warrennolan.com

You can add all the Ross Perot charts and multipliers you want, I still say beating a team with at home with a 32 RPI is a much better win than beating a team on the road with a 40 point lower RPI. I guess that's why I am not on the selection committee.

They're making much more of a focus on what you do away from home. Which makes sense to large degree because you can't play at home in the tournament.

It is a good thing, IMHO - too many P6 teams only play home OOC (with a neutral site sprinkled in) and won't play true road games. Anything to get more OOC road games is better for the sport
01-11-2018 12:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,339
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 83
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #12
RE: NCAA selections
(01-10-2018 06:29 PM)leofrog Wrote:  But, it could also work in their favor, especially for OOC games. Teams like Rhode Island usually can't get top teams to go to their place. But now, they can schedule somewhat easier opponents on the road, and get a bigger benefit out of that. I can see this actually helping teams like that if they schedule accordingly.

This is basically how the RPI is set up on college baseball. Instead of Tiers, they just weigh a home win as .7 of a win, and a road win as 1.3 of a win. Because of that, teams are schedule to take advantage of that.

Assuming this year is just an anomaly in the A10, I don't worry for them...it's everyone else behind them where I do. Especially Gonzaga, or SMC, who can't always get games on their own, rely on tournaments (where, as stever points out, a loss and the ensuing consolation games can really smack your SOS around), and then have to play in really bad conferences. And that doesn't even consider when a team thinks it challenges itself with a schedule, just to see it play garbage (like SMC). A metric like KP will take how you play against everyone, but RPI will just rip you up for playing...crap.

I just get the impression a bunch of major conference reps really started complaining about the metrics considered by the selection committee, especially when the Missouri Valley and CAA populated the RPI's top, usually "safely in" tier. And, talking heads started going to things like quality opponents, SOS (which is factored into RPI), records against certain teams, and wins regardless of where they happened. Over time, isn't this what the RPI is starting to look more like? A way to validate major conference teams with questionable RPI over better non-majors because of volume consideration of games played against top teams? Majors who don't have to move off their home court or even challenge in the non-conference then propped up in conference play? It's not exactly fair, to me at least, to now break it down further.
01-11-2018 12:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #13
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 12:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 10:33 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 06:30 PM)leofrog Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  How so? I could see if the opponents were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.


Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.

That list doesn't explain the tiers at all. Nor does the website warrennolan.com

You can add all the Ross Perot charts and multipliers you want, I still say beating a team with at home with a 32 RPI is a much better win than beating a team on the road with a 40 point lower RPI. I guess that's why I am not on the selection committee.

They're making much more of a focus on what you do away from home. Which makes sense to large degree because you can't play at home in the tournament.

It is a good thing, IMHO - too many P6 teams only play home OOC (with a neutral site sprinkled in) and won't play true road games. Anything to get more OOC road games is better for the sport
I think it's going to really hinge end of the year on how a conference looks......

If it's like the current Big East, with teams at RPI 29,30 and then another team at 51,67- that's going to be a plus.
if it's like the current SEC, with 4 teams at the 31-50 range- it's going to hurt conferences like that.....
could also help Pac 12, with 3 teams in the 51-75 range- as now those road games with them would be tier 1 games.

It's going to really be a team by team thing quite frankly as well.
01-11-2018 12:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

Wedge Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 13,727
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 441
I Root For: California
Location: Bear Territory
Post: #14
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 12:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 10:33 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 06:30 PM)leofrog Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  How so? I could see if the opponents were within 5 or 10 points but beating a team that is 40 points higher should earn more credit.


Look at my previous email where the Tiers are explained.

That list doesn't explain the tiers at all. Nor does the website warrennolan.com

You can add all the Ross Perot charts and multipliers you want, I still say beating a team with at home with a 32 RPI is a much better win than beating a team on the road with a 40 point lower RPI. I guess that's why I am not on the selection committee.

They're making much more of a focus on what you do away from home. Which makes sense to large degree because you can't play at home in the tournament.

It is a good thing, IMHO - too many P6 teams only play home OOC (with a neutral site sprinkled in) and won't play true road games. Anything to get more OOC road games is better for the sport

I wouldn't be too optimistic about it. If this home/neutral/road metric turns out to be influential in tournament seeding and in choosing bubble teams, someone will figure out how to game this metric. One possibility is more neutral-site games that aren't genuinely neutral, e.g., Kansas playing in Kansas City, Maryland playing in DC, Arizona playing in Phoenix.
01-11-2018 12:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #15
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 12:49 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 06:29 PM)leofrog Wrote:  But, it could also work in their favor, especially for OOC games. Teams like Rhode Island usually can't get top teams to go to their place. But now, they can schedule somewhat easier opponents on the road, and get a bigger benefit out of that. I can see this actually helping teams like that if they schedule accordingly.

This is basically how the RPI is set up on college baseball. Instead of Tiers, they just weigh a home win as .7 of a win, and a road win as 1.3 of a win. Because of that, teams are schedule to take advantage of that.

Assuming this year is just an anomaly in the A10, I don't worry for them...it's everyone else behind them where I do. Especially Gonzaga, or SMC, who can't always get games on their own, rely on tournaments (where, as stever points out, a loss and the ensuing consolation games can really smack your SOS around), and then have to play in really bad conferences. And that doesn't even consider when a team thinks it challenges itself with a schedule, just to see it play garbage (like SMC). A metric like KP will take how you play against everyone, but RPI will just rip you up for playing...crap.

I just get the impression a bunch of major conference reps really started complaining about the metrics considered by the selection committee, especially when the Missouri Valley and CAA populated the RPI's top, usually "safely in" tier. And, talking heads started going to things like quality opponents, SOS (which is factored into RPI), records against certain teams, and wins regardless of where they happened. Over time, isn't this what the RPI is starting to look more like? A way to validate major conference teams with questionable RPI over better non-majors because of volume consideration of games played against top teams? Majors who don't have to move off their home court or even challenge in the non-conference then propped up in conference play? It's not exactly fair, to me at least, to now break it down further.
For the A10, it feels like this is just the continuation of a trend.
look at last 5 years....
2014- 9.29 KP rating, #8 conference, 5/5/6/9/10/11 seeds
2015- 5.61 KP rating, #7 conference, 7/10/11 seeds
2016- 5.48 KP rating, #8 conference, 7/8/10 seeds
2017- 3.95 KP rating, #8 conference, 7/10/11 seeds
2018- 1.84 KP rating, #10 conference

The question for me is this the low point of the A10, or could they slip more? Why I don't think you can write it off as an anomoly is the fact that the league wasn't exactly great last year.
01-11-2018 01:03 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Wedge Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 13,727
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 441
I Root For: California
Location: Bear Territory
Post: #16
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 12:49 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  A way to validate major conference teams with questionable RPI

"Questionable RPI" is a redundant phrase, because RPI is an extremely questionable metric to begin with. It should have been retired at least 10 years ago after several conferences had a consultant show them how to rig their RPI ratings by scheduling the best teams from terrible conferences (because RPI rewards you for playing a 20-win team even if 19 of those wins were over teams that should probably be in D-III or NAIA).
01-11-2018 01:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,339
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 83
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #17
RE: NCAA selections
Yeah, I could see seeding getting really dicey with this new component. Again, especially with the mid-majors at high RPI's. Not to pick on Rhodie, but, assuming they don't lose another game, their RPI could still scrape the top 10-15. With the conference so bad and record versus the top tier, and second tier, being far more slim than those around them...what's the reality they actually see a 3-5 seed? Their numbers put them in the 7-10 stew at best.

Again, looking at Gonzaga, and I'm not seeing how winning out at this point gets them anything better than where the line divides the at-large's with the single-bid AQ's (which is looking terrible this year...this might be a good year for 5-seeds), maybe the 11-line? This is last year's runner-up, and still a good team...totally ****ed by its schedule. And we wonder why this rumor of going to the Big East doesn't die? This is a real issue for them.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2018 01:30 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-11-2018 01:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #18
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 01:23 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Yeah, I could see seeding getting really dicey with this new component. Again, especially with the mid-majors at high RPI's. Not to pick on Rhodie, but, assuming they don't lose another game, their RPI could still scrape the top 10-15. With the conference so bad and record versus the top tier, and second tier, being far more slim than those around them...what's the reality they actually see a 3-5 seed? Their numbers put them in the 7-10 stew at best.

yeah, not only are they 1-3 vs tier 1 teams, only 2-3 vs tier 1/2 teams. They have only 1 tier 1 game left- @ St Bonaventure. Only 3 tier 2 games left. I think a 5 might be their absolute best case scenario.
01-11-2018 01:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
stever20 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 30,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 284
I Root For: College Sports
Location:
Post: #19
RE: NCAA selections
at least Gonzaga is 4-3 vs tier 1 opponents. With 2 more games left. That's where they're different than Rhode Island. If both won out, I think Gonzaga would easily get the higher seed than Rhode Island. Right now on ESPN, Gonzaga projected as a 6, Rhode Island as a 8. That seems about right to me.
01-11-2018 01:36 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,339
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 83
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #20
RE: NCAA selections
(01-11-2018 01:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  at least Gonzaga is 4-3 vs tier 1 opponents. With 2 more games left. That's where they're different than Rhode Island. If both won out, I think Gonzaga would easily get the higher seed than Rhode Island. Right now on ESPN, Gonzaga projected as a 6, Rhode Island as a 8. That seems about right to me.

Yeah, if you're 8 and the AQ, I'm not sure what happens if you slip up and don't win the auto bid. Bonaventure's just on the outside. I don't see how SMC keeps a spot if they aren't grabbing at least one against Gonzaga.

Lipscomb is interesting. 38th in RPI, 1-5 versus tiers 1 and 2...14 seed, and just because they are the AQ.
01-11-2018 02:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2018 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2018 MyBB Group.