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Trump endorses clean DACA bill
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-11-2018 10:50 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 03:41 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 04:54 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
Quote:I suspect that construction projects that need maintenance as well as staffing are more multiplicative than 'service' jobs... so while it is certainly possible, I don't think so. As others have said, I think it's a combination of things. Walls are appropriate (and safer) in some places... and people are appropriate in others.


But we already have that in place in the form of a fence. Why does it have to ba a wall?

What you don't want Mexicans looking at us through the fence?

It doesn't. But you can't put "750 miles of electrified fence, 750 miles of scale-proof fence and 554 miles of cinder block' on a bumper sticker or on the scroll at the bottom of CNN.

So you propose a 'wall' and then SETTLE for the above.

The problem with a fence is that they are fairly easily scaled... even with 'scale proof' fences and barbed wire etc. They often work in prisons because prisoners don't have access to things to cover the barbed wire nor tools to easily cut the fence nor scale. They usually would only have perhaps 5-10 minutes to get over any such fence, so a double wall means 20 minutes... and guards with guns can show in that time.

Mexicans could easily have equipment and tools etc etc etc and be hours before a guard could be there, so you need SOMETHING more substantial.

The idea of more guards kind of ignores that this is almost a 2,000 mile border with very few towns. Even if you staffed it every mile, you'd have people who have to drive hundreds of miles to and from their posts where they stood all alone for hours. You'd need plumbing and air conditioning and heat and lights etc etc etc.

The ACTUAL solution is going to be much more complex than 'a wall'. Everyone (on the 'wall' side) I've ever spoken to about this understands that. Sure there are some morons, but if you showed them the reality (like a deep part of the river or a mountain top) even they would say... okay... build something ELSE in THAT spot... but to them it's still a 'wall'.


(01-10-2018 05:57 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 03:07 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Was reading about a big raid on 7/11 and a big push to start criminally charging executives and companies that are knowingly hiring illegals. I couldn’t support that more fully. Eliminate the job opportunities and punish those that want to exploit illegals.

THAT...would be the bestest wall of all. So. Simple.

This has been tried since the 1980's (at least) with limited success. While you CAN police large companies, you can't easily police every small business, which is where most of these illegals work.

Just yesterday agents converged on a few 7/11 and arrested illegals working there and the owners are being charged. So it can happen.

If business owners start going to jail, it will stop. Whether the business is big or small. Thats when the owners start taking it seriously.

If its not been enforced for years, businesses will do it. The threat of a fine wont help. An actual fine wont help.

Prison time will do it.
01-12-2018 11:56 AM
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #102
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
We're decriminalizing and/or eliminating jail time for things that cause people direct, often physical harm.... I have a hard time supporting criminalizing by jail things that cause primarily financial and indirect harm.

Yes, it happened at a few 7-11s somewhere, but there are perhaps 100,000 such businesses in the country and we simply don't have time or manpower to do such things.

That isn't a reasonable stand-alone solution.

Habitual offenders? Okay... but you're going to have a tough time enforcing all the lawn businesses, restaurants, quick-stops etc etc etc in this country
01-12-2018 03:43 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
OK, riddle me this.

You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.

You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.

Which do you choose?
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 05:15 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-12-2018 05:11 PM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.

You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.

You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.

Which do you choose?

What is Poland's tax rate, and if I move there can I be called The Great One?
01-12-2018 06:30 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 06:30 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
What is Poland's tax rate, and if I move there can I be called The Great One?

Personal: 18% up to around $100,000, 32% above there
Corporate: 19%
01-12-2018 06:34 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #106
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.

You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.

You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.

Which do you choose?

Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.
01-12-2018 07:00 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.

You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.
01-12-2018 07:10 PM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.

You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.
My understanding is everyone has to go through e-verify.. hell I'm white and had to go through e-verify. I don't think this would hold water in a court of law if you were doing what is required by law.
01-12-2018 07:30 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.

You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.

This is what happens: If E-Verify kicks back an issue with the verification process (and they sometimes require additional documentation) they will ask for the additional documentation and give a deadline. (About two weeks I believe) If the documents suffice, all is good. If they dont suffice, then you can no longer employ the person. You dont get "dinged" for the 2 or 3 weeks they worked while Everify was processing them, though.
01-12-2018 08:31 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 08:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.
You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.
This is what happens: If E-Verify kicks back an issue with the verification process (and they sometimes require additional documentation) they will ask for the additional documentation and give a deadline. (About two weeks I believe) If the documents suffice, all is good. If they dont suffice, then you can no longer employ the person. You dont get "dinged" for the 2 or 3 weeks they worked while Everify was processing them, though.

But you need the work done today. You don't care about two weeks. So you hire somebody else. Turns out he was legal and he goes to EEOC. It's a real problem, despite your attempts to minimize.

E-Verify has gotten a lot better. But they still don't seem to be able to get timely turnaround.
01-12-2018 09:10 PM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-12-2018 09:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  OK, riddle me this.
You have a job applicant, he looks to be poor and hispanic, he has papers but you have some question about their authenticity. You try E-Verify but it is not reliable and does not give you a satisfactory result.
You can hire him and risk criminal penalties from ICE. Or you can turn him down and risk a discrimination suit from EEOC. Or you can move your plant to Poland and forget about it.
Which do you choose?
Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.
You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.
This is what happens: If E-Verify kicks back an issue with the verification process (and they sometimes require additional documentation) they will ask for the additional documentation and give a deadline. (About two weeks I believe) If the documents suffice, all is good. If they dont suffice, then you can no longer employ the person. You dont get "dinged" for the 2 or 3 weeks they worked while Everify was processing them, though.

But you need the work done today. You don't care about two weeks. So you hire somebody else. Turns out he was legal and he goes to EEOC. It's a real problem, despite your attempts to minimize.

E-Verify has gotten a lot better. But they still don't seem to be able to get timely turnaround.

Again if the law states everyone has to go through e-verify the case is thrown out. Also who is not going to plan ahead for the work? Your scenario is highly unlikely from the need to the lawsuit.
01-13-2018 08:39 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Trump endorses clean DACA bill
(01-13-2018 08:39 AM)gdunn Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 09:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Good luck with the EEOC suit. You cant hire any worker without the proper documentation. Race is irrelevant.
You missed my point. Suppose the guy is legal, it's just that his papers are a little shaky. And E-Verify could get back to you in a week, but you needed a worker that day. He will say that you "obviously profiled him because he was hispanic." And don't tell me that won't get you and EEOC suit.
This is what happens: If E-Verify kicks back an issue with the verification process (and they sometimes require additional documentation) they will ask for the additional documentation and give a deadline. (About two weeks I believe) If the documents suffice, all is good. If they dont suffice, then you can no longer employ the person. You dont get "dinged" for the 2 or 3 weeks they worked while Everify was processing them, though.
But you need the work done today. You don't care about two weeks. So you hire somebody else. Turns out he was legal and he goes to EEOC. It's a real problem, despite your attempts to minimize.
E-Verify has gotten a lot better. But they still don't seem to be able to get timely turnaround.
Again if the law states everyone has to go through e-verify the case is thrown out. Also who is not going to plan ahead for the work? Your scenario is highly unlikely from the need to the lawsuit.

Maybe it's unlikely where you are, but not that unlikely for construction work in South Texas. E-Verify is supposed to be a safe harbor, but doesn't prevent some ambulance chaser from taking on a case claiming that you didn't properly submit to E-Verify and are thus not allowed to use the safe harbor, and then settle for nuisance value. And if you catch a break on weather, you very definitely may want to hire a bunch of people in a hurry to finish something. I don't do construction, but friends who do tell me that they are frequently in a bind on this.

Yes, it's a remote possibility, primarily because it's a remote possibility that any of them are legal. But an ICE raid is a remote possibility too. So which risk do you take?

I've said before, I'd favor some sort of permanent guest worker status, it's been called a red card, with no path to citizenship. That's the way the rest of the world handles it.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 09:15 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-13-2018 09:10 AM
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